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The Resurrection is it provable?

Brian2

Veteran Member
Me thinks thou protests too much.

"The most stunning aspect of the document is the reference to Judah as the “House of David.” For the first time, it was thought, the name David appeared in an extra-Biblical document. At about the same time, however, two French scholars, André Lemaire (1994) and Émile Puech (1994), independently recognized the same phrase in the Mesha Inscription, which has been around for well over 100 years (Wood 1995). It now likely that the name David is in a third inscription. Egyptologist K.A. Kitchen believes that the phrase “highland of David” appears in the Shishak inscription in the Temple of Amun at Karnak, Egypt (1997: 39–41). All this at a time when a number of scholars were challenging the existence of the United Monarchy and a king name David!

Unfortunately, the beginning of the Tel Dan Stela is missing. This is where the name of the king who commissioned the memorial, and the event which occasioned it, would have been recorded. With the discovery of Fragment B, however, we can assign the stela’s place in history with near certainty. Parts of the names of two kings are preserved in Fragment B: Joram, son of Ahab, king of Israel from 852 to 841 BC, and Ahaziah, son of Jehoram, king of Judah (the House of David) in 841 BC. With this new information it is possible to assign the stela to Hazael, king of Aram-Damascus, who undoubtedly set it up in Dan to commemorate his victory over Joram and Ahaziah at Ramoth-Gilead in ca. 841 BC (2 Kgs 8:28–29).
"

Tel Dan Stela & the Kings of Aram & Israel - Associates for Biblical Research

You seem to think that archaeology is so advanced as to have all information. We are just at the tip of discoveries. The "House of David" was quite real. Jerusalem was quite real. His domain was the totality of what God have them.

You are holding onto the fallacy that if there is no archaeological proof (at this time) means it never was real.

Why does my position rub you wrong? Why do you find it so necessary that it be wrong?

It is amazing what has been found in archaeology concerning the truth of the Bible and it is also amazing that so many archaeologists deny the Bible stories.
The archaeology of the conquest has been messed up to such an extent that many, if not most (from what I hear) archaeologists deny the conquest story.
Some archaeologists say that chronology in Egyptology is not accurate by a long way and this accounts for part of the problem with reconciling archaeology finds with the Bible among other things in ancient history.
I don't know if you have heard or read any of David Rohl's works and his archaeologically radical idea of an error of 300 years in Egyptology chronology. This brings up some more evidence for what is written in the books of Samuel and for Saul and David.
This interview with David gives some of that evidence from about 22:30 to 28:30.
The whole interview is interesting actually, as are other videos of David's.

 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Exodus 22:18
18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. ;)

I believe that is valid. What i find hard to believe is that one can assure that a person is a witch unless they do something dramtically public as in turn a person into a toad. And even then it could just be an illusion as the magicians practice.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
A Christian could do so by redefining murder. Now the rest of us won't accept it, but he could fool himself into his act being justified.

I believe the Bible refers to it as the shedding of innocent blood. Since we are all sinners, I believe that means relative innocence. Judas could say he shed innocent blood because Jesus was without sin.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I believe the Bible refers to it as the shedding of innocent blood. Since we are all sinners, I believe that means relative innocence. Judas could say he shed innocent blood because Jesus was without sin.
So all you have to do is to convince yourself that someone was not "innocent" and you can justify their murder?
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
So then one can justify murder when the Bible says "thou shalt not murder?"
Exodus 22:18
18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. ;)

I believe that is valid.

I think you have rather missed the point there. the bible condones murder in that text, and not just there, making your original claim pretty disingenuous.

What i find hard to believe is that one can assure that a person is a witch unless they do something dramtically public as in turn a person into a toad. And even then it could just be an illusion as the magicians practice.

Are you seriously asserting you believe someone can perform magic like transforming someone into another species? Dear god....:rolleyes:

The views on witches are of course asinine, but more worryingly they are deeply pernicious, and therefore morally repugnant. This is an inherent danger of religion, people unquestioningly adhering to dangerous and pernicious archaic texts.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It is amazing what has been found in archaeology concerning the truth of the Bible and it is also amazing that so many archaeologists deny the Bible stories.
The archaeology of the conquest has been messed up to such an extent that many, if not most (from what I hear) archaeologists deny the conquest story.
Some archaeologists say that chronology in Egyptology is not accurate by a long way and this accounts for part of the problem with reconciling archaeology finds with the Bible among other things in ancient history.
I don't know if you have heard or read any of David Rohl's works and his archaeologically radical idea of an error of 300 years in Egyptology chronology. This brings up some more evidence for what is written in the books of Samuel and for Saul and David.
This interview with David gives some of that evidence from about 22:30 to 28:30.
The whole interview is interesting actually, as are other videos of David's.

He is a bit of a fringe writer, on the same order as the Jesus mythicists.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
He is a bit of a fringe writer, on the same order as the Jesus mythicists.

So am I, but I am not qualified and he is.
But of course when it comes to some sciences all it takes to be a fringe writer is to disagree with the majority.
When it comes to the Bible the archaeological evidence is there for it's historicity but is ignored because of a series of mistakes in Biblical Archaeology which have led people down the wrong path.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
It is amazing what has been found in archaeology concerning the truth of the Bible and it is also amazing that so many archaeologists deny the Bible stories.
Yes some of the history is true, like all myths. None of the supernatural is shown to be true, like all myths.

Is it also amazing that archaeologists deny the stories in Hindu myths, Greek myths, Islamic scripture? Probably not. They deny stories because not everyone is stuck behind cognative bias and can see that the stories are from Mesopotamian origin. Their world doesn't revolve around making fictional stories true.



I
The archaeology of the conquest has been messed up to such an extent that many, if not most (from what I hear) archaeologists deny the conquest story.
Some archaeologists say that chronology in Egyptology is not accurate by a long way and this accounts for part of the problem with reconciling archaeology finds with the Bible among other things in ancient history.
I don't know if you have heard or read any of David Rohl's works and his archaeologically radical idea of an error of 300 years in Egyptology chronology. This brings up some more evidence for what is written in the books of Samuel and for Saul and David.
This interview with David gives some of that evidence from about 22:30 to 28:30.
The whole interview is interesting actually, as are other videos of David's.
Rohl has been debunked. A Harvard professor did an entire paper on him.
So I post scholarship and you say it's "supposed truth" and question the validity, yet can source endless scholars saying the same. Now ONE Egyptologist re-writes the chronology and it's your new standard? Despite that no other scholar finds the work to be valid? But it confirms your beliefs so suddenly it must be true? The lengths you have to go to make these beliefs work?


Also:

In 2010, a series of corroborated radiocarbon dates were published for dynastic Egypt which suggest some minor revisions to the conventional chronology, but do not support Rohl's proposed revisions

Egyptology has not adopted the New Chronology,[citation needed] continuing to employ the standard chronology in mainstream academic publications. Rohl's most vocal critic has been Professor Kenneth Kitchen, formerly of Liverpool University, who called Rohl's thesis "100% nonsense.

Chris Bennett (1996), while saying "I am quite certain that Rohl’s views are wrong"

Kenneth Kitchen's arguments against the New Chronology have focused on Rohl's Third Intermediate Period revision which proposes an overlap between the 21st and 22nd Dynasties. In particular Kitchen challenges the validity of the chronological anomalies raised by Rohl, questioning whether they are true anomalies and offering his own explanations for the apparent problems raised by Rohl. Kitchen accuses New Chronologists of being obsessed with trying to close gaps in the archaeological record by lowering the dating.[citation needed]

Grouping all radical revisions of Egyptian chronology together without distinction, Erik Hornung, in his Introduction to the Handbook of Ancient Egyptian Chronology, makes the following statement:

We will always be exposed to such attempts, but they could only be taken seriously if not only the arbitrary dynasties and rulers, but also their contexts, could be displaced.... In the absence of such proofs we can hardly be expected to "refute" such claims, or even to respond in any fashion ... It is thus neither arrogance nor ill-will that leads the academic community to neglect these efforts which frequently lead to irritation and distrust outside of professional circles (and are often undertaken with the encouragement of the media). These attempts usually require a rather lofty disrespect of the most elementary sources and facts and thus do not merit discussion. We will therefore avoid discussion of such issues in our handbook, restricting ourselves to those hypotheses and discussions which are based on the sources
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
So am I, but I am not qualified and he is.
But of course when it comes to some sciences all it takes to be a fringe writer is to disagree with the majority.
When it comes to the Bible the archaeological evidence is there for it's historicity but is ignored because of a series of mistakes in Biblical Archaeology which have led people down the wrong path.

Also the archaeological evidence is there for the kingdom being much smaller than stated,
Yahweh having a girlfriend
Thomas Thompson demonstrated Moses and the Patriarchs were myth
Israelites came from Canaan not Egypt
Conquest of Joshua probably not historic
Stories of Solomon are larger than real life
The stories of Yahweh are the same in all religions since the Sumerians

and now we see you know more than Biblical archaeologists. Ok.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Also the archaeological evidence is there for the kingdom being much smaller than stated,
Yahweh having a girlfriend
Thomas Thompson demonstrated Moses and the Patriarchs were myth
Israelites came from Canaan not Egypt
Conquest of Joshua probably not historic
Stories of Solomon are larger than real life
The stories of Yahweh are the same in all religions since the Sumerians

and now we see you know more than Biblical archaeologists. Ok.

You seem to have the idea that all Biblical archaeologists believe the same.
I just side with those whose interpretations agree with the Bible.
And yes that is a bias on my part and there is no harm in admitting that and that my beliefs are actually beliefs.
This is something I have found that many people with a naturalistic bias and belief system do not want to admit or are blind to much of the time.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Rohl has been debunked. A Harvard professor did an entire paper on him.
So I post scholarship and you say it's "supposed truth" and question the validity, yet can source endless scholars saying the same. Now ONE Egyptologist re-writes the chronology and it's your new standard? Despite that no other scholar finds the work to be valid? But it confirms your beliefs so suddenly it must be true? The lengths you have to go to make these beliefs work?

No, it hasn't been debunked, it has been argued against by those who disagree. More than one Egyptologist in the past has had similar ideas and it seems most agree that pharaohs reigns and dynasties overlapped even if Rohl has taken it to an extreme. But that extreme does fix other problems in ancient history however.
Interestingly the chronological ideas of David Rohl are no needed to justify the Bible stories of the exodus and conquest of Canaan with archaeology.

Also:

In 2010, a series of corroborated radiocarbon dates were published for dynastic Egypt which suggest some minor revisions to the conventional chronology, but do not support Rohl's proposed revisions

David Rohl does cite errors in carbon dating and says that he prefers to use archaeological methods than carbon dating.

Egyptology has not adopted the New Chronology,[citation needed] continuing to employ the standard chronology in mainstream academic publications. Rohl's most vocal critic has been Professor Kenneth Kitchen, formerly of Liverpool University, who called Rohl's thesis "100% nonsense.

Chris Bennett (1996), while saying "I am quite certain that Rohl’s views are wrong"

Kenneth Kitchen's arguments against the New Chronology have focused on Rohl's Third Intermediate Period revision which proposes an overlap between the 21st and 22nd Dynasties. In particular Kitchen challenges the validity of the chronological anomalies raised by Rohl, questioning whether they are true anomalies and offering his own explanations for the apparent problems raised by Rohl. Kitchen accuses New Chronologists of being obsessed with trying to close gaps in the archaeological record by lowering the dating.[citation needed]

Grouping all radical revisions of Egyptian chronology together without distinction, Erik Hornung, in his Introduction to the Handbook of Ancient Egyptian Chronology, makes the following statement:

We will always be exposed to such attempts, but they could only be taken seriously if not only the arbitrary dynasties and rulers, but also their contexts, could be displaced.... In the absence of such proofs we can hardly be expected to "refute" such claims, or even to respond in any fashion ... It is thus neither arrogance nor ill-will that leads the academic community to neglect these efforts which frequently lead to irritation and distrust outside of professional circles (and are often undertaken with the encouragement of the media). These attempts usually require a rather lofty disrespect of the most elementary sources and facts and thus do not merit discussion. We will therefore avoid discussion of such issues in our handbook, restricting ourselves to those hypotheses and discussions which are based on the sources

Yes many are opposed to David Rohl but he may be correct.
But of course the thing about the Biblical archaeology is that it does not need David Rohl's new chronology to show the historicity of the Bible imo.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
This is something I have found that many people with a naturalistic bias and belief system do not want to admit or are blind to much of the time.
They don't want to admit that your religious beliefs are unevidenced subjective and biased? I have no problem admitting that.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
If you want certainty before starting the journey of faith, you will never start.

Why would I want certainty? Just a shred of any objective evidence that a deity is even possible would be a good a start. I have no use for religious faith, as it can and does validate wildly different beliefs in different religions and deities, and is therefore demonstrably biased and ineffective.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Why would I want certainty? Just a shred of any objective evidence that a deity is even possible would be a good a start. I have no use for religious faith, as it can and does validate wildly different beliefs in different religions and deities, and is therefore demonstrably biased and ineffective.

There is plenty of evidence that a deity is possible and even needed. What would make it objective but everyone agreeing that it is evidence.
Sounds like argumentum ad populum to me.
But maybe there is something else that would make the evidence objective.
Any ideas?
I presume you have made an adult choice about the existence of god/s.
Have you done that using objective evidence or is it something like a religious religious belief?
I know, you do not believe, you just lack belief, so the burden is on me to show you and as far as you are concerned the god/s have not given enough evidence for you even if all start off as atheists and the god/s have given enough evidence for most people to believe.
 
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wellwisher

Well-Known Member
I like to parallel the charisma of faith in God, to faith in innovations, by their inventors.

All forms of innovation and invention begin as a seed idea, only in the imagination of the inventor. It is typically not accepted, up front, because the doubters cannot see how the seed idea can grow into its claimed potential. They need to see it to believe it, which is not yet possible, expect for the inventor. The inventors see the future. and not just the now. This can create a fear in the doubters.

If all seed ideas had been left to only the doubters to decide, we would still be in the Stone Age. Each layer of progress started out as a seed idea, not yet fully formed out of matter, for the doubters to see.

The faithful in God are like innovators of the mind and spirit. Their vision is not easily seen by those who only depend on their senses in the here and now. They will need to see to believe. They would like to stay in their own Stone Age of spiritual innovation. But the innovators push their ideas forward and help make life better for the doubters of the future. After the doubters can see, then a connection between all humans occurs and a new age appears. BC to AD was based on spiritual innovation.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
You seem to have the idea that all Biblical archaeologists believe the same.
I just side with those whose interpretations agree with the Bible.
And yes that is a bias on my part and there is no harm in admitting that and that my beliefs are actually beliefs.
This is something I have found that many people with a naturalistic bias and belief system do not want to admit or are blind to much of the time.

If there are archaeologists who can present good evidence for their beliefs that's great. William Dever shows what evidence he finds. It's fairly straightforward. The first step forward was in the 70's by a scholar who had to leave the U.S. people were so upset with him. Now his work is considered standard reading.
The Historicity of the Patriarchal Narratives: The Quest for the Historical Abraham is a book by biblical scholar Thomas L. Thompson, Professor of Old Testament Studies at the University of Copenhagen.

There is proof of places and human people from the OT. I understand that. I think people with what you call "naturalistic bias" also would like evidence of supernatural things. I would. It just isn't there.
I know we all have beliefs to some degree but I want to believe true things. If something has evidence I would believe it.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
No, it hasn't been debunked, it has been argued against by those who disagree. More than one Egyptologist in the past has had similar ideas and it seems most agree that pharaohs reigns and dynasties overlapped even if Rohl has taken it to an extreme. But that extreme does fix other problems in ancient history however.
Interestingly the chronological ideas of David Rohl are no needed to justify the Bible stories of the exodus and conquest of Canaan with archaeology.


Yes a Harvard professor wrote a paper explaining why the chronology cannot be correct. Rohl isn't Jewish/Christian. Exodus is accepted as a national myth and the archaeology shows the Israelites came from Canaan.
https://lmf12.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/critique_of_david_rohl.pdf

The history of Israel is standard:

A people named Israel appear for the first time in the Merneptah Stele, an ancient Egyptian inscription which dates to about 1200 BCE.[57][58][59][60] Ancestors of the Israelites are thought to have included ancient Semitic-speaking peoples native to this area.[61]: 78–79  According to the modern archaeological account, the Israelites and their culture branched out of the Canaanite peoples and their cultures through the development of a distinct monolatristic—and later monotheistic—religion centered on Yahweh.[62][63][64] They spoke an archaic form of the Hebrew Language, known as Ancient Hebrew.[65] The archaeological evidence indicates a society of village-like centers, but with more limited resources and a small population.[66] Villages had populations of up to 300 or 400,[67][68] which lived by farming and herding, and were largely self-sufficient;[69] economic interchange was prevalent.[70] Writing was known and available for recording, even in small sites.[71] Around the same time, the Philistines settled on the southern coastal plain.[72][73]

Modern archaeology has largely discarded the historicity of the narrative in the Torah concerning the patriarchs, The Exodus, and the conquest of Canaan described in the Book of Joshua, and instead views the narrative as constituting the Israelites' national myth.[74] However, some elements of these traditions do appear to have historical roots.[75][76][77]





Yes many are opposed to David Rohl but he may be correct.
But of course the thing about the Biblical archaeology is that it does not need David Rohl's new chronology to show the historicity of the Bible imo.


Yes the archaeology shows Israel came from Cannan and Genesis is a Mesopotamian story.
Enuma Elish - The Babylonian Epic of Creation - Full Text

Genesis/Enuma Elish
The Enuma Elish would later be the inspiration for the Hebrew scribes who created the text now known as the biblical Book of Genesis. Prior to the 19th century CE, the Bible was considered the oldest book in the world and its narratives were thought to be completely original. In the mid-19th century CE, however, European museums, as well as academic and religious institutions, sponsored excavations in Mesopotamia to find physical evidence for historical corroboration of the stories in the Bible. These excavations found quite the opposite, however, in that, once cuneiform was translated, it was understood that a number of biblical narratives were Mesopotamian in origin.


Famous stories such as the Fall of Man and the Great Flood were originally conceived and written down in Sumer, translated and modified later in Babylon, and reworked by the Assyrians before they were used by the Hebrew scribes for the versions which appear in the Bible.



Both Genesis and Enuma Elsih are religious texts which detail and celebrate cultural origins: Genesis describes the origin and founding of the Jewish people under the guidance of the Lord; Enuma Elish recounts the origin and founding of Babylon under the leadership of the god Marduk. Contained in each work is a story of how the cosmos and man were created. Each work begins by describing the watery chaos and primeval darkness that once filled the universe. Then light is created to replace the darkness. Afterward, the heavens are made and in them heavenly bodies are placed. Finally, man is created.





The Epic of Atraḥasis is the fullest Mesopotamian account of the Great Flood, with Atraḥasis in the role of Noah. It was written in the seventeenth century BCE




  • The supreme god Enlil's decision to extinguish mankind by a Great Flood
  • Atraḥasis is warned in a dream
  • Enki explains the dream to Atraḥasis (and betrays the plan)
  • Construction of the Ark
  • Boarding of the Ark
  • Departure
  • The Great Flood
 
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