"The Right is way worse than the Left!!!"

[Revoltingest]

Why not take the best from both systems and jettison the rest?

What does socialism have to offer?

You can't blame that on socialists.

Who says I am?

A far bigger mess was when oil prices were quadrupled.

I prefer high oil prices.
Good for the environment.

Price controls helped to boost production during WW2, turning America into the greatest industrial powerhouse ever conceived. If FDR let the capitalists run things, we'd all be speaking Japanese today.

Tell ya what....I'll let you impose some
price controls during every world war.

Oh yes, I've checked into it. Basically, it upsets wealthy people who lament that they can't gouge people and satisfy their incessant greedy urges. So, their instinct is to do whatever they can to try to sabotage it and make that aforementioned "mess" you spoke of. But make no mistake, it's not the price controls which create the mess; it's the capitalists refusing to cooperate which causes the mess.

The worst thing a socialist can ever do to them is tell them that they're equal to the "peasants" they look down upon. Their entire reason for being ostensibly lies within a feeling of superiority over others, and they see socialism as robbing them of that boost to their ego.



Actually, serfdom ended in Russia in 1861 (even before the U.S. ended slavery). After that, they were nominally "capitalist" inasmuch as they still operated within the world system as it was back in the 19th century. They were subject to the same basic trends and ideological patterns affecting the rest of Europe, even if they were several decades behind industrially.



Of course I have shown it to be true. Simply telling you the results and Russia's performance in WW1 versus WW2 would show remarkable improvement. A country that can win wars is better off than a country that can't. That's all I have to do to show you that it's true, and yet, you still deny it? Where is your support for such a view? What is your reasoning here?



Russia didn't have serfdom since 1861.

Again, the argument is this (read my lips): Socialism improves societies better than what they had before.

Note that I never said that it was "as good as" or "better" than the U.S. economy. My only point regarding that has been that the U.S. economy might appear better, but not because of capitalism or any systemic cause. It's more due to circumstances of history which existed outside of any considerations of an abstract system.



Social liberty has never been at issue for socialists. Socialism has generally been far more progressive when it comes to social liberty. Economic liberty is what's at issue, and my only point of contention here is that, if you want economic liberty, it should be economic liberty for all. Equality. Social and economic justice. These are the things that socialists support.

Ultimately, all socialists really want is for working people to be given a fair day's wage for a fair day's work. I can't see what's wrong with that principle.

The only real point of contention that I can see is who gets to decide what is fair. Who gets to decide how much a person's labor is worth or how much a product is worth (or how much a CEO's labor is worth)? Who is in the best position to do that? Is it the State, whose very existence is based upon serving the interests of all the people as a collective whole? Or is the capitalists, whose very existence is based upon selfish greed and wanting to keep as much for themselves while providing as little as possible?

All that text tired me out.
I've nothing to add.

 

[Quintessence]

Lol still not addressing a thing at all. I accept you concession, bodily autonomy for all!

What's there to address?

Stuff I didn't say, think, or believe in? Not interested.

Conceding to beliefs I already held to begin with? Also, not interested.

 

[Stevicus]

All that text tired me out.
I've nothing to add.

Unlike Profundus Maximus, Philosopher can actually be quite knowledgeable on a variety of subjects. Somewhat humorless and aloof, he is also slow to anger, and when he deigns to join in the fray he is considerate of other opinions. His fighting tactics are direct and uncomplicated - he smothers the opposition with his ponderous and lengthy cogitations. Only the strongest and most patient Warriors can survive an extended battle with Philosopher.

Philosopher (flamewarriorsguide.com)

 

[Revoltingest]

Capitalista is not always a wealthy fat cat; being a Capitalista is a state of mind rather than a reflection of affluence. A strident and extraordinarily self–satisfied Warrior, Capitalista takes every opportunity to extol the superiority of the free enterprise system and has a powerful aversion to the welfare states of Europe. Capitalista fiercely defends the market economy, bludgeoning “fuzzy-minded socialists” with Adam Smith, Milton Friedman and Friedrich Hayek. Though rather limited in his range of interests, Capitalista’s command of carefully selected historical facts, abstruse statistical comparisons and arcane economic theory make him a formidable foe.

 

[1137]

What's there to address?

I'd be most curious to hear why you hate the Republicans for trying to strip you of autonomy, but not the Democrats who try to strip you of autonomy. Like why is it important you can have an abortion, but not that people can work, or choose what medical procedures to get, or leave their house at will? Don't worry, I know you won't answer just like a republican won't answer why they believe the exact opposite. Cause you're both identical.

 

[Quintessence]

I'd be most curious to hear why you hate the Republicans for trying to strip you of autonomy, but not the Democrats who try to strip you of autonomy. Like why is it important you can have an abortion, but not that people can work, or choose what medical procedures to get, or leave their house at will? Don't worry, I know you won't answer just like a republican won't answer why they believe the exact opposite. Cause you're both identical.

It's not complicated. In contrast to the opening post, I'm not interested in false equivalency, overlooking context, or ignoring nuance on this topic. Doing so results in blindness to the abject evil which has gripped an unfortunate portion of this country. And that is not something that I say lightly as a non-dualist.

 

[Audie]

It's difficult to say who is worse generally.
Pubs & Dems shift back & forth on the
anti-libertarian spectrum regularly.
Trumpism is more evil at the moment,
but I'm confident that Dems will eventually
rise to the challenge.

There's plenty of evil in incompetence

 

[Audie]

The idea that capitalism guarantees social freedom is demonstrably incorrect. Any system needs to be kept in check or it becomes a tool of oppression.

I do find communism to be a pipe dream, though. I don't trust human nature not to be corrupted by so much power, and the concept of such a harmonious system where government and the people perfectly contribute to each other's well-being is amply evidenced to be unreliable and unfeasible.

I view "free-market capitalism" as similarly unrealistic and harmful, albeit in different ways. For example, a lot of colonialist and neocolonialist exploitation of other countries for resources has direct roots in capitalism and prioritization of corporate profit over all other considerations.



Conquest is unnecessarily costly and risky when a global superpower can just install and support puppets and dictators who serve its interests. There's a reason the US has long supported abusive regimes in Saudi Arabia and Israel, among others.

As free market capita.ism exists nowhere and has certainly never been tried, talk of it is as
unrealistic as talk of true pure communism or
libertarian ideals.

Just one among many details is that
taken to its extreme. " free market / evil predatory etc" capitalism would be inherently and quickly self defeating.
For those to whom that is not totally obvious
I hardly know what to say.

 

[Audie]

It's not complicated. In contrast to the opening post, I'm not interested in false equivalency, overlooking context, or ignoring nuance on this topic. Doing so results in blindness to the abject evil which has gripped an unfortunate portion of this country. And that is not something that I say lightly as a non-dualist.

What "abject evil" are you talking about?

 

[Revoltingest]

There's plenty of evil in incompetence

Aye, something both parties have in abundance.

 

[wellwisher]

The main difference between the political Right and political Left is that the Right prefers smaller government and the Left prefers bigger government. This tells about the base psychology of both Parties.

Smaller government requires the individual become more self reliant, since Big Brother may be too small to help you, in as many ways. The Left by preferring Big Government, all the way to Huge Government Socialism, means they want someone else to think for them and tell them what to do and think. They are afraid of self reliance and would prefer be a herd animal. Socialism is one large happy herd. Capitalism is often described as predatory, with predators in nature, the most self sufficient critters; tiger and wolf. The self reliant at heart will migrate one way, while the dependent at heart will go another way.

A good example of how this simple base orientation impacts behavior was the change in abortion laws. It was sent to the states for each to decide. The Left is all upset and wants Big Brother; Federal, to intercede and force one size fits all solution that benefits Big Government types.

The Right, which is to more about being self sufficient, does not see this change as a problem, since it will still offer a state by state choices, allowing everyone some room to work around the change. The Big Brother herd was broken down to 50 smaller state herds. One can just travel to where their choice is acceptable; self reliance.

The Left does not have the self initiative or self reliance to think this way. The big herd is afraid of what may happen now that it is split up into the smaller state herds. This need to keep the herd together for protection, making the left more gullible to global bad ideas and misinformation, since they are waiting for the Biggest Brother to tell them what to do; Socialism.

To the Right, who promotes self reliance and self sufficiency; small government and free market, they see the dependent Left as a potential mob of mindless parrots, that can do mindless damage at the request of their spokesmen; peaceful rioting and looting. The Left see the Right as those who will shrink the role of Big Brother and maybe cause them to lose their way; one deer walking the woods alone They get very paranoid and then start to act out in ways that make the Right nervous; mobs form a defensive circle.

When America was founded, with the writing of the Constitution, only property owners could vote. These were the most self sufficient members of early American culture. The women and children and those within property; renters, were dependent on them. This clearly tells us the vision of the Founding Father was a country based on self sufficiency, leading. They did this with a bill of citizen rights, checks and balance, limiting Federal power and states rights. They never envisioned lead by Big Brother dependency. This has resulted in huge deficits and a lot of skimming.

The current Big and Small government divide now has too many dependents voting. Dependents often cannot see the bigger picture, but only a smaller view from inside the large herd. When Big Brother moves the herd, you may not even know why, but you will feel the need to start walking. States Rights at least make the Big Government herd smaller, so even those in the middle, can see why we are requested to walk.

The justification for Government and Big Tech censorship comes from the party of Big Brother dependency, since those at the top are wises of all of us; as the story goes. But in both cases of Big Brother; the private and state leaders of Big Brother, are self reliant by being at the top. Their goal is to make things easy for themselves, using their dependent herd for leverage; scare tactics.

 

[Quintessence]

What "abject evil" are you talking about?

Forced birth, which is a massive human rights violation.

Which in some states, is now happening regardless of age, medical condition, or rape. Women and others who can become pregnant in this country are now free range chattel, owned by the state under the condition of pregnancy. It's a level of horrifying abuse and misogyny I don't really have a good word for other than to make it a rare exception for the use of the word "evil." I can't imagine a much more horrific abuse of basic human rights, except for the free range chattel to become penned. But really, that's not necessary for the horror to have its impact - there's a reason why human rights experts cite reproductive autonomy as essential to correcting for power disparities imposed on women by a patriarchal society. This was all about putting women "in their place" and restoring second class citizenship. And transgender people impacted by this too are barely part of the conversation as their rights are actively being legislated out of existence.

 

[Revoltingest]

The main difference between the political Right and political Left is that the Right prefers smaller government and the Left prefers bigger government. .

The right often says that, but I observe that they're
also big government advocates....just a different
flavor of it. Watch what happens when each party
gains control...government grows. And the right
is also bigger on government control of medical
issues, eg, abortion, sex transition, right to die.
To this libertarian, they're both big government.

 

[syo]

Right, center, left = all of them = PUKE

 

[Audie]

Forced birth, which is a massive human rights violation.

Which in some states, is now happening regardless of age, medical condition, or rape. Women and others who can become pregnant in this country are now free range chattel, owned by the state under the condition of pregnancy. It's a level of horrifying abuse and misogyny I don't really have a good word for other than to make it a rare exception for the use of the word "evil." I can't imagine a much more horrific abuse of basic human rights, except for the free range chattel to become penned. But really, that's not necessary for the horror to have its impact - there's a reason why human rights experts cite reproductive autonomy as essential to correcting for power disparities imposed on women by a patriarchal society. This was all about putting women "in their place" and restoring second class citizenship. And transgender people impacted by this too are barely part of the conversation as their rights are actively being legislated out of existence.

Oh, the abject evil of not killing the innocent

 

[1137]

It's not complicated. In contrast to the opening post, I'm not interested in false equivalency, overlooking context, or ignoring nuance on this topic. Doing so results in blindness to the abject evil which has gripped an unfortunate portion of this country. And that is not something that I say lightly as a non-dualist.

So just like a republican you pick and choose your values and go out of your way to not address your hypocrisy. Thank you for going so far out of your way to so thoroughly prove my OP correct, it quite nice of you.

 

[1137]

Forced birth, which is a massive human rights violation.

Which in some states, is now happening regardless of age, medical condition, or rape. Women and others who can become pregnant in this country are now free range chattel, owned by the state under the condition of pregnancy. It's a level of horrifying abuse and misogyny I don't really have a good word for other than to make it a rare exception for the use of the word "evil." I can't imagine a much more horrific abuse of basic human rights, except for the free range chattel to become penned. But really, that's not necessary for the horror to have its impact - there's a reason why human rights experts cite reproductive autonomy as essential to correcting for power disparities imposed on women by a patriarchal society. This was all about putting women "in their place" and restoring second class citizenship. And transgender people impacted by this too are barely part of the conversation as their rights are actively being legislated out of existence.

Yes, forced birth is bad. Why are other violations of autonomy not though? Oh right, you refuse to answer

 

[Sand Dancer]

The main difference between the political Right and political Left is that the Right prefers smaller government and the Left prefers bigger government. This tells about the base psychology of both Parties.

Smaller government requires the individual become more self reliant, since Big Brother may be too small to help you, in as many ways. The Left by preferring Big Government, all the way to Huge Government Socialism, means they want someone else to think for them and tell them what to do and think. They are afraid of self reliance and would prefer be a herd animal. Socialism is one large happy herd. Capitalism is often described as predatory, with predators in nature, the most self sufficient critters; tiger and wolf. The self reliant at heart will migrate one way, while the dependent at heart will go another way.

A good example of how this simple base orientation impacts behavior was the change in abortion laws. It was sent to the states for each to decide. The Left is all upset and wants Big Brother; Federal, to intercede and force one size fits all solution that benefits Big Government types.

The Right, which is to more about being self sufficient, does not see this change as a problem, since it will still offer a state by state choices, allowing everyone some room to work around the change. The Big Brother herd was broken down to 50 smaller state herds. One can just travel to where their choice is acceptable; self reliance.

The Left does not have the self initiative or self reliance to think this way. The big herd is afraid of what may happen now that it is split up into the smaller state herds. This need to keep the herd together for protection, making the left more gullible to global bad ideas and misinformation, since they are waiting for the Biggest Brother to tell them what to do; Socialism.

To the Right, who promotes self reliance and self sufficiency; small government and free market, they see the dependent Left as a potential mob of mindless parrots, that can do mindless damage at the request of their spokesmen; peaceful rioting and looting. The Left see the Right as those who will shrink the role of Big Brother and maybe cause them to lose their way; one deer walking the woods alone They get very paranoid and then start to act out in ways that make the Right nervous; mobs form a defensive circle.

When America was founded, with the writing of the Constitution, only property owners could vote. These were the most self sufficient members of early American culture. The women and children and those within property; renters, were dependent on them. This clearly tells us the vision of the Founding Father was a country based on self sufficiency, leading. They did this with a bill of citizen rights, checks and balance, limiting Federal power and states rights. They never envisioned lead by Big Brother dependency. This has resulted in huge deficits and a lot of skimming.

The current Big and Small government divide now has too many dependents voting. Dependents often cannot see the bigger picture, but only a smaller view from inside the large herd. When Big Brother moves the herd, you may not even know why, but you will feel the need to start walking. States Rights at least make the Big Government herd smaller, so even those in the middle, can see why we are requested to walk.

The justification for Government and Big Tech censorship comes from the party of Big Brother dependency, since those at the top are wises of all of us; as the story goes. But in both cases of Big Brother; the private and state leaders of Big Brother, are self reliant by being at the top. Their goal is to make things easy for themselves, using their dependent herd for leverage; scare tactics.

A mixed economy works best, which most developed nations are. Too much or too little government doesn't work too well. Either way, citizen engagement is important.

 

[Revoltingest]

Women and others who can become pregnant in this country are now free range chattel, owned by the state under the condition of pregnancy.

It would be useful to see the other side's perspective.
If both the mother & fetus have a right to life, then
there will be rights to balance. This is typical when
rights of 2 different people are in conflict, eg, the
right to bear arms, & the right to control activities
on one's own property.
So it doesn't make women "chattel", ie, property
that can be bought & sold.

Note: I'm pro-abortion rights.

 

[Quintessence]

@1137 - when you can stop putting words in my mouth that aren't there and knock it off with the slander, a proper conversation can be had.