the right religion

[Muffled]

A woman friend of mine, sick with the flu, went for a doctor visit. The doctor (a woman) began preaching to my friend that she was guilty, as we are all guilty and born that way, and so my friend must think about saving herself. Then she gave her a script for antibiotics and some fundie religious tracts.

First convince everyone that they are dirty. Only then will our offer of Holy Soap be well received.

I went to the doctor and he measured my blood pressure and found it to be high, In order to save me from the bad affects of high blood pressure he prescribed a medicine.

So is my doctor evil for saying there was something wrong with me? What would be my prospects if I wasn't saved? Death?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I went to the doctor and he measured my blood pressure and found it to be high, In order to save me from the bad affects of high blood pressure he prescribed a medicine.

So is my doctor evil for saying there was something wrong with me? What would be my prospects if I wasn't saved? Death?

Your doctor is a medical expert, but no doctor is a spiritual expert. So no doctor should be offering religious advice to her patients.

 

[viole]

I went to the doctor and he measured my blood pressure and found it to be high, In order to save me from the bad affects of high blood pressure he prescribed a medicine.

So is my doctor evil for saying there was something wrong with me? What would be my prospects if I wasn't saved? Death?

Well, i would ask for a second opinion, before taking that stuff.

So, what do you do if the second opinion tells you that you are not sick at all, or that you have a completely different sickness, or that you really have high pressure but gives you completely different medicines?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Ingledsva]

I went to the doctor and he measured my blood pressure and found it to be high, In order to save me from the bad affects of high blood pressure he prescribed a medicine.

So is my doctor evil for saying there was something wrong with me? What would be my prospects if I wasn't saved? Death?

A doctor here actually lost his hospital privileges (meaning he could no longer practice medicine there) for annoying his captive patients with religious stuff.


A doctor's office is no place for proselytizing.


*

 

[1robin]

A doctor here actually lost his hospital privileges (meaning he could no longer practice medicine there) for annoying his captive patients with religious stuff.


A doctor's office is no place for proselytizing.


*

Many legalities and policy's are anti-moral but I agree the doctors office is no place for pushing a faith. Mentioning faith is fine. I have a Islamic doctor and we have friendly debates all the time.

 

[1robin]

Remember that one time when gays tried to keep straight people from getting married...yeah...neither do I.

What is the point? Trees never tried to either. Should people marry them, dolls, or children?

 

[1robin]

I was only asking that you grant being a Christian was not necessary to having such an experience. I didn't really expect anything further.

I emphatically deny that anyone who is not born again is a Christian. Here is a small part of why?

3 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these [a]signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born [c]again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever [d]believes will in Him have eternal life.

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [e]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the [f]only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
John 3

Nicodemus was a good man, good teacher, a Jew, baptized, and honestly sought God. None of it saved him, but it did lead him to the man who could.

For some churches it is only necessary that you be baptized to be a Christian. For others you need to come forward and confess that Jesus is your savior to be accepted as a Christian by that church.

Baptism is a public symbol of salvation not salvation it's self. It is meaningless without the event it represents.

As far as Muslim spiritual experiences you might what to check with Tony Blair's sister. Of course we only have her word, and yours that these experiences happened.

I am certain many Muslims claim spiritual experiences but not even a meaningful fraction compared to Christianity. There is always a small group that will claim anything.

Where I would grant both but of course, no true Scotsman would become a Muslim after such an experience would they...

Scotsmen are hard to predict, wearing dresses and all, but the fallacy does not apply.

So in this possibility of seriously screwing up you don't think they might choose to seek answers in the "wrong" religion?

They may chose the wrong flavor of Christianity but after experiencing Christ I can't see then becoming a Muslim that denies that Christ died for our sins.

Sure, might makes right... oh, wait. That was the other discussion.

A tank running over you with your knife has no moral lessons. It does have some sanity lessons. Did I miss a clever anology a ways back or something?

I'm assuming you have truth on your side? Is that in question?

My world view I believe is true in general but I am sure details of it are not.

(Speaking of true Scotsmen )

Speaking of the obsessive overuse of an irrelevant appeal to a fallacy crutch :close eyes.

The World huh... Yeah that is a pretty big opponent to come up against in a discussion. Which forum is the World posting in these days?

Your half hearted sarcasm escapes me.

Yet here you are with your infallible certainty.

I am hear with the confidence of a justified position. I have certainty about something the same as you and the fact that perfection as a basis for salvation's being impossible makes me certain it is not the criteria for it. I even after I was saved could not understand why faith not merit was the standard until I tried to actually examine merit based salvation models. They are not difficult they are impossible.

Amazingly certain for a fallible being.

Is claiming to know one thing the definition of infallible? Cut out the hyperbolic ansurdities please.

 

[1robin]

Just because something is logical doesn't necessarily mean that it is correct. My point to Nakosis said it was generally logical, but I didn't say I agreed with it all. On top of this, I made no mention of the bread and wine statement, and I don't even know in which post he may have mentioned it.

I can agree with your clarification but trust me even if logical, the bible emphatically states it is not true. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[1robin]

If you meant earth is in the heavens I believe this is correct. If you meant earth is in Heaven then I believe you are incorrect.

I believe the earth is central to the heavens and Israel the capitol but I have no idea how far heaven may reach or what it may encompass besides earth.

I believe the New Jerusalem is in the heavens and when it comes to earth it remains in the clouds until it descends to a new earth.

I agree.

I believe there is no evidence to support this belief.

Then why did Christy have to die? Why did he not just show us how to get ourselves there and then hang out or leave. Heaven requires perfection, we do not have it, we must get it from participating in Christ's death and become legally perfect even if temporally sinful.

I believe your understanding is flawed. There is no evidence to support it.

See the above. You realize you are taking the opposite position of orthodox Christianity by challenging this?

i do not believe Hell is annihiation since that would eliminate punishment and I believe the scripture does consider Hell a punishment.

Does Gandhi deserve to burn forever? Does anyone? If hell is a place and God is omnipresent then God is in hell. The disqualification for an eternity with God in complete contentment is punishment. How often do we punish kids by taking away things. If hell is permanent what is thrown into the lake of fire? What does the verse about fearing the one who can destroy the soul mean if he never does so?

I only write what the Holy Spirit gives me to write but since He is complex perhaps you could narrow it down to one subject that you would like to discuss in more detail.

Are you claiming every keystroke you make is approved by the Holy Spirit personally? Have you never said anything that turned out to be false?

 

[1robin]

I believe there is no middle area. There are only two realms, physical and spiritaul. Heaven is a spiritual realm. The New Jerusalem is in a physical realm and is physical.

i believe Heaven is separate from the New Jerusalem as earth is separate from Heaven.

I believe jesus knows.

You just said above that the new Jerusalem will be on earth in the end. How are they separate? Jesus made sure to dispel any beliefs that heaven is only spiritual by making the apostles touch him and he said we will be given actual bodies when resurrected.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

What is the point? Trees never tried to either. Should people marry them, dolls, or children?

Trees: cannot consent
Dolls: cannot consent
Children: cannot consent
Two grown adult men/ women: CAN consent.

 

[Agnostic75]

Remember that one time when gays tried to keep straight people from getting married...yeah...neither do I.

What is the point? Trees never tried to either. Should people marry them, dolls, or children?

Humans marrying trees, dolls, and children is much different from human adults of the same sex getting married.

 

[Andrew Odinson]

No there isn't one right religion. I believe that all religions are true and people will find the deity that understands them the best. This concept of fundamentalism or a single ultimate truth causes nothing but harm to the world. The idea of one right religion has lead to bloodshed in all faiths and it is time for people to move away from this ideals. The truth is there are multiple right religions and some faith are trying to gain dominance over others by spreading the lie that they hold some ultimate truth.

 

[Nakosis]

I emphatically deny that anyone who is not born again is a Christian. Here is a small part of why?

Ok, not really the point of the comment, but it brings up something else...

So no one really has anyway to verify that you've been born again other than your claim to be so.

Anyone could claim to be born again, and claim any others who don't agree are not the true born again Christians because of reason X, Y or Z. Now this is where the No true Scotsman fallacy come into play.

Other then your own claim to have the authority to make such a declaration about who is a true Christian there's no verification of you having the authority/ knowledge to who is or who is not a true Christian. Is there? Or is there?

Is there a mark? Is there some special ability you have that could actually validate your claim of being born again of being able to determine who has and who has not been born again?

To cut to the chase of the rest of the post, this would also resolve your claim of being infallible on one point.

Why should I or anyone accept this claim of you being born again?

Or, I suppose if easier, how would you go about verifying the claim of someone else being born again?

 

[1robin]

Trees: cannot consent
Dolls: cannot consent
Children: cannot consent
Two grown adult men/ women: CAN consent.

Are you equating the rational intelligibility to marry with concept? Why?

However none of that was the point. The point was one groups never having denied another groups right to carry out an act is not an argument for an act. Hitler did not outlaw Holocausts, does that mean those who do are wrong? Britain did not condemn colonialism are those that do in error? Stalin never said a dictator has no right to starve 11 million people top death. Do those that hold that view deserve contempt? You missed the whole point.

 

[1robin]

Humans marrying trees, dolls, and children is much different from human adults of the same sex getting married.

Homosexual defenders are so rabid they see every argument as against the behavior. My argument was about the ineptitude of an arguments basis. Not about homosexual marriage at all.

 

[1robin]

Ok, not really the point of the comment, but it brings up something else...

So no one really has anyway to verify that you've been born again other than your claim to be so.

Anyone could claim to be born again, and claim any others who don't agree are not the true born again Christians because of reason X, Y or Z. Now this is where the No true Scotsman fallacy come into play.

The only one who has need to know is God and he does so perfectly. I was not suggesting earthly dividing lines or borders but only what Christ said was true.

Other then your own claim to have the authority to make such a declaration about who is a true Christian there's no verification of you having the authority/ knowledge to who is or who is not a true Christian. Is there? Or is there?

Is there a mark? Is there some special ability you have that could actually validate your claim of being born again of being able to determine who has and who has not been born again?

To cut to the chase of the rest of the post, this would also resolve your claim of being infallible on one point.

Why should I or anyone accept this claim of you being born again?

Or, I suppose if easier, how would you go about verifying the claim of someone else being born again?

I am not making claims about my qualifications but about there being qualifications. I do not care if you accept whether I am born again or not. The issue is Christ made that the criteria or at least claimed to. I try and never judge people but only actions and concepts. I am talking about them and your talking about the other. The issue was with what Christ taught not what I am. No fallacy crutch required.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

Homosexual defenders are so rabid they see every argument as against the behavior. My argument was about the ineptitude of an arguments basis. Not about homosexual marriage at all.

I don't see anything "rabid" about their comment, but anyway...

 

[Ingledsva]

Homosexual defenders are so rabid they see every argument as against the behavior. My argument was about the ineptitude of an arguments basis. Not about homosexual marriage at all.

I don't see anything "rabid" about their comment, but anyway...

Me either ...


And Jesus didn't say anything about homosexuality.



It is interesting how they themselves don't want to observe ALL the OT laws, but then try to use those same laws against other people.



Perhaps Jesus didn't say anything about homosexuality, for a reason?



*

 

[Muffled]

Your doctor is a medical expert, but no doctor is a spiritual expert. So no doctor should be offering religious advice to her patients.

Anyone who is a Chistian and understands the Gospel can provide information that will save a person's soul and expertise is not required.