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the right religion

1robin

Christian/Baptist
have you ever taken into consideration why this "rabid bias", a term i find rather ironic, is something to be reckoned with?
What a strange question. I have learned over many years that everyone is affected by bias in a powerful way. I have come to understand this and do my utmost to minimise it's effect of my outlook. It is impossible to completely eliminate it but I have strove hard to render it as impotent as possible. I do not see that same viewpoint from the other side. Everything form the critics side seems to thrive on bias. I mean everything.

these claims that you say are supported are not support by rationality.
consider,you have a god that requires a group of people to murder another group of people because they are rebellious and wicked...well if they were rebellious and wicked god will get them in the end anyway...right?
You are not thinking things through. I assume you are referring to the Hebrews wars in the old testament. God's primary reason for destroying these evil tribes was not vengence. It was to stop them from corrupting the Hebrews so when Christ came he would have the influence of a unique society. God's purpose was to establish a rightous nation that would stand out. His wisdom can easily be see. I am currently reading a secular book on old testament wars. Every time the Hebrews disobeyed and did not destroy completely what God said to the suffered greatly for it and their influence diminished. God's purpose would not have been accomplished by reserving judgement until the end.

they would go to hell and that will take care of that...but no, that isn't enough as there's something this other group of people had that was useful...virgin girls.
fast forward, and now this very same god sacrifices himself to himself...because he "loves everyone"
how is that consistent with the idea that god is a constant?
I have never checked into this virgin issue. For now I will agree that it is personally distasteful but my opinion may change after I check into it. I never claimed God was constant (whatever that means). I said he was consistent with revelation, his nature, his purpose, and his covenant. I love how it is conveniently forgotten that God's sense of justice is just as real as his love. You try to define God in whatever way it is that suits the purposes for establishing a claim to justify dismissal. BIAS.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Everything form the critics side seems to thrive on bias. I mean everything.
i apply the same skepticism just about everything.

You are not thinking things through. I assume you are referring to the Hebrews wars in the old testament. God's primary reason for destroying these evil tribes was not vengence. It was to stop them from corrupting the Hebrews so when Christ came he would have the influence of a unique society. God's purpose was to establish a rightous nation that would stand out. His wisdom can easily be see. I am currently reading a secular book on old testament wars. Every time the Hebrews disobeyed and did not destroy completely what God said to the suffered greatly for it and their influence diminished. God's purpose would not have been accomplished by reserving judgement until the end.
the timing tells me everything. why wait? why not send his son as an offering before the floods, or all these wars in order to hold people accountable for their actions? the midianites had infants that were slaughtered because they were boys....the virgins were kept...for what purpose? these are evil acts justified by god...
and there no way anyone can determine what gods purpose unless they abandon what they use every day in their decision making process...
rationality. that is the double standard i am talking about.


I have never checked into this virgin issue. For now I will agree that it is personally distasteful but my opinion may change after I check into it. I never claimed God was constant (whatever that means). I said he was consistent with revelation, his nature, his purpose, and his covenant.
the fact that there is more than one covenant proves god is not consistent.

I love how it is conveniently forgotten that God's sense of justice is just as real as his love. You try to define God in whatever way it is that suits the purposes for establishing a claim to justify dismissal. BIAS.
i don't try to define what god is...as i said before no one can, and that includes me.
i question the definition of what others define god as
 

9Westy9

Sceptic, Libertarian, Egalitarian
Premium Member
Knowing what you will use your freewill to chose has no effect on your decision. You just can't see this.

and you can't see that knowing what someone will do has an effect on the decision. If I'm 100% certain that you will choose x instead of y tomorrow then no matter what you want to choose you will choose x tomorrow

This is not accurate. Is it some kind of compulsion that causes bible critics to habitually warp a Christian's statements into what they think is more manageable. Any thing out side of revelation or that can be derived from revelation is beyond our ability with the exception of a limited amount of philisophical law. You were operating outside this envelope and so I said what I did. However if we stick to things inside the envelope this issue isn't applicable.

So in other words you like double standards? i.e. when I say something you like about God it's okay but as soon as I say something you don't like it's "beyond our ability".

I still don't see it.

That seems to be happening a lot in this discussion.

I have grown weary of discussing the definitions of words when they have effect on reality. God's moral requirements are in effect absolute and consistent with his timeless purpose. The label applied to them has no effect on them so is meaningless. He is the only possible higher standard that gives our sense of morality any relevance or foundation. What exactly are you trying to show with the verses above. If it is to slap a label on God's morality that has no effect, why bother? If not what was the point?

I probably should have just posted a verse where God tells the Israelites to take slaves. How about Deuteronomy 20

10When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

First, fool is used to denote an especially wicked person. IMO All fools reject God but not all people who reject God are relatively wicked. Second this is the way God judges from his perspective that has nothing to do with my opinions on the subject especially considering I am not to judge (to some extent). I would say the way I personally feel is stated by this verse.
New International Version (©1984)
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Then why did you bother posting the verse in the first place?

No matter what an atheist does good or bad they connot gain approval by God (in any general sense). Before you went down this leading path the issue was that an atheist can do good things but can't suffeciently explain or justify them.

I can explain why I do "good" things and "bad" things. I might give money to a poor man because I want to help him. Or I might punch someone because they have offended me etc.

What does this stand for? I am pop culture challenged.

It stands for "laughing my *** off"
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Every religion is right to the one who follows it. At the present time Knowledge Of Self is the right religion for me.
This is a meaningless claim whether or not an individual arbitrarily decides that a particular religion is "right" for him or not has no ultimate value unless they happen to choose the correct one. Whatever is thea actual truth is what we are resposible to ultimately. For instance if the Christian God is true then you will face his judgement regardless what religion you squandered your freewill on in choosing.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
i apply the same skepticism just about everything.
I do not agree but I will not suggest you are being dishonest. This is a matter of opinion.


the timing tells me everything. why wait? why not send his son as an offering before the floods, or all these wars in order to hold people accountable for their actions?
Have wars decreased since Jesus came? He was sent to pluck brands out of the fire not put the fire out. He will eventually put the fires out but not until his appointed time at the end of things. His crucifixion was retroactive and applied to the people of the old testament and was based on faith as well. That was the symbolic purpose of the blood of bulls and rams. It was a symbolic act that pushed sins forward until Christ came and actually removed them.


the midianites had infants that were slaughtered because they were boys....the virgins were kept...for what purpose?
The infants went straight to heaven instead of toiling on the earth for 50 years and being taught to worship a false God and winding up seperated from God for eternity. Like I said the virgins do trouble me but I will investigate.


these are evil acts justified by god...
First you have no capacity by which you can determine this in any meaningful way. I, being cooperative with allow that you don't accept this fact and will try to once again illustrate it. The infants went to heaven so no issue there, the virgins I will find out about. As for the rest the Cannanites in particular were so evil as I have stated before they made their children walk through fire for false Gods. They walled them up alive in building foundations for luck I suppose. The Midionites you mention just so you know I do not make up the things I claim I will copy a paper on the subject.

God later instructs the Israelites to deal harshly with the Midianites: "Be hostile to the Midianites and strike them; 18for they have been hostile to you with their tricks, with which they have deceived you in the affair of Peor, and in the affair of Cozbi, the daughter of the leader of Midian, their sister who was slain on the day of the plague because of Peor," (Num. 25:17-18). Later, when Moses meets the returning Israeli army he was angry because he saw the Medianite survivors. "The Midianite women, he said, should have died because they were directly culpable in Israel’s sin at Baal of Peor. All the women except the virgins were then sentenced to death along with all the boys. This insured the extermination of the Midianites and thus prevented them from ever again seducing Israel to sin....The virgins were spared because they obviously had had no role in the Baal of Peor incident nor could they by themselves perpetuate the Midianite peoples."1
Some may object that the Israelites then married the virgins, the daughters of those whom they had killed and that this would be a horrible thing for the virgins. Perhaps it was a horrible thing for them. But, their lives were spared. Also, in that culture at that time, warfare and plunder was a necessary evil. The reality of taking women as wives was unfortunate but true.
Why was God so harsh with those in idolatry?

We must understand that God dealt very harshly because it was through the people of Israel that the Messiah would later come. Satan, in his perpetual effort to oppose God, sought to have the people of God fall into false worship and through intermarriage with other people, to destroy the messianic line and make not only the promises of God null and void, but destroy means by which the Messiah could be born. If this could be accomplished, then none would have any hope of deliverance from sin. Therefore, we see in the Old Testament God being very harsh and strict according to the Law. Why were only the virgins left alive among the Midianites? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

You can clearly see that if God's message is true then he had plenty of justification for what he did. It is a waste of time to define or judge God based on our own limited experience alone. If his purpose is assumed then his actions make sence. If we substitute our purposes for his they do not.


and there no way anyone can determine what gods purpose unless they abandon what they use every day in their decision making process...
rationality. that is the double standard i am talking about.
I do not find it much of a sacrifice to place as secondary the judgement of a fallable, finite mind and substitute the primary position with a perfect infinate mind if I believe him to be real.


the fact that there is more than one covenant proves god is not consistent.
There was never a promise to only provide a single covenant. The different covenants all result from the same consistent nature. However I do not doubt thay are contradictory in your head. They are at least no less consistent than a father treating his children differently as they grow up. God's nature never changes his actions might for our sake. Almost none of of your claims regardless which way they are answered have any effect an whether God is real or not.


i don't try to define what god is...as i said before no one can, and that includes me. i question the definition of what others define god as
I agree to some extent that no man can fully know God. That is why God gave us suffecient information concerning him in detail. All we need plus some he has given.
 

illykitty

RF's pet cat
This is a meaningless claim whether or not an individual arbitrarily decides that a particular religion is "right" for him or not has no ultimate value unless they happen to choose the correct one. Whatever is thea actual truth is what we are resposible to ultimately. For instance if the Christian God is true then you will face his judgement regardless what religion you squandered your freewill on in choosing.

Well there isn't much other way of choosing. Every religion has contradictions, at least all Abrahamic claim to be the TRUE path... It just goes nowhere. Everyone probably chooses what feels the most right and true to themselves. There's no proofs and all religions have their own version of "proofs". Maybe all of them then has a level of truth and we were meant to chose what fits. Or maybe it's all wrong as well!

I don't know about you but I have read a fair bit about every religion and the only way I see to choose is to take the path that is right for oneself.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
This is a meaningless claim whether or not an individual arbitrarily decides that a particular religion is "right" for him or not has no ultimate value unless they happen to choose the correct one. Whatever is thea actual truth is what we are resposible to ultimately. For instance if the Christian God is true then you will face his judgement regardless what religion you squandered your freewill on in choosing.

How can we be responsible for choosing a religion that is right for us? Should we choose one that seems wrong?

Should we passively accept whatever someone else states as the truth?

Christianity may teach the wrong truth. Though it seems right to you. People choose what seems right to them. Why would they do otherwise. Maybe the Heathens are right and you'll be judge according to their Gods. Your just as likely to fail picking/accepting Christianity as any Muslim, Jew, Pagan. You're accepting what seems right to you. Assuming everyone makes the honest choice of whatever belief seems right to them, how can God fault anyone for that?
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I do not agree but I will not suggest you are being dishonest. This is a matter of opinion.


Have wars decreased since Jesus came? He was sent to pluck brands out of the fire not put the fire out. He will eventually put the fires out but not until his appointed time at the end of things. His crucifixion was retroactive and applied to the people of the old testament and was based on faith as well. That was the symbolic purpose of the blood of bulls and rams. It was a symbolic act that pushed sins forward until Christ came and actually removed them.
but why then? why would god allow for this suffering?

on the premise that god is a personal god, why would god allow for innocent children to die simply for being associated with the "wrong" tribe?

The infants went straight to heaven instead of toiling on the earth for 50 years and being taught to worship a false God and winding up seperated from God for eternity. Like I said the virgins do trouble me but I will investigate.
that doesn't answer the question.
'here little one, you are born and now you have to suffer a painful death for no reason other then by me placing you in the "wrong" tribe...just so people who are living in the 21st century can understand the symbolism of what my will is.

First you have no capacity by which you can determine this in any meaningful way. I, being cooperative with allow that you don't accept this fact and will try to once again illustrate it. The infants went to heaven so no issue there, the virgins I will find out about. As for the rest the Cannanites in particular were so evil as I have stated before they made their children walk through fire for false Gods. They walled them up alive in building foundations for luck I suppose. The Midionites you mention just so you know I do not make up the things I claim I will copy a paper on the subject.
and i will repeat this
'here little one, you are born and now you have to suffer a painful death for no reason other then by me placing you in the "wrong" tribe...just so people who are living in the 21st century can understand the symbolism of what my will is



We must understand that God dealt very harshly because it was through the people of Israel that the Messiah would later come. Satan, in his perpetual effort to oppose God, sought to have the people of God fall into false worship and through intermarriage with other people, to destroy the messianic line and make not only the promises of God null and void, but destroy means by which the Messiah could be born. If this could be accomplished, then none would have any hope of deliverance from sin. Therefore, we see in the Old Testament God being very harsh and strict according to the Law. Why were only the virgins left alive among the Midianites? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
it's an evolving understanding of the human experience.

don't you find it odd that god never really dealt with the enemy on personal terms but rather impersonal ways...
the killing of the 1st born in exodus, the genocide of other tribes.
i don't see that as god showing how he wants a personal relationship with people on a one on one basis but rather god is more concerned about people in a group setting.

You can clearly see that if God's message is true then he had plenty of justification for what he did. It is a waste of time to define or judge God based on our own limited experience alone. If his purpose is assumed then his actions make sence. If we substitute our purposes for his they do not.
if i am starving and my child is dying "i" am justified in stealing someone else's food. so in that way yes i see it as a justification to justify horrific acts done to innocent people

I do not find it much of a sacrifice to place as secondary the judgement of a fallable, finite mind and substitute the primary position with a perfect infinate mind if I believe him to be real.
with all due respect, you do base your judgment on a fallible and finite mind...yours...you have nothing else to go on.


There was never a promise to only provide a single covenant. The different covenants all result from the same consistent nature. However I do not doubt thay are contradictory in your head. They are at least no less consistent than a father treating his children differently as they grow up. God's nature never changes his actions might for our sake. Almost none of of your claims regardless which way they are answered have any effect an whether God is real or not.
which was?

I agree to some extent that no man can fully know God. That is why God gave us suffecient information concerning him in detail. All we need plus some he has given.
why assume god wants us to know anything, if there is one.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
and you can't see that knowing what someone will do has an effect on the decision. If I'm 100% certain that you will choose x instead of y tomorrow then no matter what you want to choose you will choose x tomorrow
I thought you were acting confused on purpose but you actually can't see what I am saying can you? Lets just drop it I don't want to waste more time.



So in other words you like double standards? i.e. when I say something you like about God it's okay but as soon as I say something you don't like it's "beyond our ability".
That is completely false and not what I have ever said. That is a new one. Not. I actually said that if you comment on something about God that is contained within revelation or can be resonably implied from it then it has some basis for reliability. If you are just making stuff up about God in a vacume that only contains your opinion then it is meaningless.



That seems to be happening a lot in this discussion.
Wonder why?


I probably should have just posted a verse where God tells the Israelites to take slaves. How about Deuteronomy 20
10When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
This actually brings up an issue that we as Christians have not suffeciently made clear. We always are quick to show God as the lamb but refrain from discussing his role as the Lion. God is perfectly within his nature and revelation to destroy rebellion when is has fully matured especially when it threatens his elect. Too often his terrible vengance and rightous indignation is glossed over. Unlike most atheists and evolutionists I will accept the more uncomfortable realities of my world view.

The people that these verses concern are the cannanites as I have mentioned several times now. The cannanites were completely corrupt, they forced children to pass through fire for a false God, they walled them up in the walls of buildings alive for luck (I guess). God had given them an opportunity to repent. They refused and he was justified in destroying them, which by the way he may not have even done with the exception that they were corrupting the Hebrews. And he only did this after offering them a way out. Forced labour I do not believe was equivalent to our understanding of slavery. That isn't important, God as well as being loving is also a righteous judge and had suffecient reason to destroy these people. I am currently reading a secular book on these wars and it elaborates in detail just how depraved these people were. As you operate consistently with atheism 101, your next jab will be what about the children. According to the bible the children went straight to heaven.
God, who knows all things, saw that they were incurable in their idolatry; that the cup of their iniquity was full; and as their Creator, Sovereign, and Judge, he determined to destroy them from off the face of the earth, "lest they should teach the Israelites to do after all their abominations," Deuteronomy 20:18. After all, many plausible arguments have been brought to prove that even these seven Canaanitish nations might be received into mercy, provided they, 1. Renounced their idolatry; 2. Became subject to the Jews; and, 3. Paid annual tribute: and that it was only in case these terms were rejected, that they were not to leave alive in such a city any thing that breathed, Deuteronomy 20:16. Deuteronomy - Chapter 20 - Adam Clarke Commentary on StudyLight.org
This site covers these issues in depth.



Then why did you bother posting the verse in the first place?
My understanding of the verse was this: It means to reject God is a foolish action. The foolish person having rejected God will behave in immoral ways a large portion of the time. (Your view of an immoral action will differ in many areas than what God considers immoral). I will have to adjust my interpretation to include what I posted as I did not understand that issue clearly.



I can explain why I do "good" things and "bad" things. I might give money to a poor man because I want to help him. Or I might punch someone because they have offended me etc.
You have given suffecient reason for your preferences. You have not touched sufficient ground for declareing them Good, or not. Justifying why I like something does not justify my claiming it is ultimately good or bad. In short you can justify individual subjective preference which is not a suffecient method for establishing the moral systems of society without God. However a meaningful justification for the moral requirements of society and law are only found in an ultimate objective standard.


It stands for "laughing my *** off"
I knew it must be some deep philisophical gem of wisdom.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
And if if was a fifth we'd all be drunk.:shrug:
Now that is wisdom. Not. I was illustrating the futility of adopting what you find the most advantagous and ignoring what is most likely the truth. If you can't understand that I can't help.

Also you made a claim to knowledge therefore the burden of proof is one you. So let er rip.
 

Twig pentagram

High Priest
Now that is wisdom. Not. I was illustrating the futility of adopting what you find the most advantagous and ignoring what is most likely the truth. If you can't understand that I can't help.

Also you made a claim to knowledge therefore the burden of proof is one you. So let er rip.
I made a claim to Knowledge Of Self. What could you possibly want me to prove?:facepalm:
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I made a claim to Knowledge Of Self. What could you possibly want me to prove?:facepalm:
No, this was your claim "Every religion is right to the one who follows it. At the present time Knowledge Of Self is the right religion for me." If I chose a false religion why would that religion ultimately be right for me whether or not I thought it was. If I choose Baha i and I found myself standing before the God almighty of the bible. Will that religion be right for me then? I thought you were asserting oriental pluralism. My point here is I resent the cheepening of actual true religion by the association with it of meaningless assertions of philosophy. It is like watering the actual medicine down with useless filler that makes it less effective. Sorry maybe you caught me at a bad time. I will look at your posts fresh tomorrow. Peace.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I don't ignore what is most likely the truth. That's why I'm not a christian.;)
I believe you are completely wrong but that is a coherent position if granted the premise. Since you are concentrateing on the least likely agent (yourself) to get you into heaven why is that of value to you? Why would you believe the most popular religion, and the most popular book, with the most verifiable evidence, the most absolute claims for devinity (Prophecy), etc.. etc.. is less likely true than the SELF religion? That might take a while and I am heading out but I will check back to see what you post peace.
 

Twig pentagram

High Priest
No, this was your claim "Every religion is right to the one who follows it. At the present time Knowledge Of Self is the right religion for me." If I chose a false religion why would that religion ultimately be right for me whether or not I thought it was. If I choose Baha i and I found myself standing before the God almighty of the bible. Will that religion be right for me then? I thought you were asserting oriental pluralism. My point here is I resent the cheepening of actual true religion by the association with it of meaningless assertions of philosophy. It is like watering the actual medicine down with useless filler that makes it less effective. Sorry maybe you caught me at a bad time. I will look at your posts fresh tomorrow. Peace.
I understand what you're saying now. What I meant is I think every religion
is right to the one who follows it until proven otherwise. Now that should'nt
cheapen an "actual true religion".
 

Twig pentagram

High Priest
I believe you are completely wrong but that is a coherent position if granted the premise. Since you are concentrateing on the least likely agent (yourself) to get you into heaven why is that of value to you?
I don't even know if "heaven' is real.

Why would you believe the most popular religion, and the most popular book, with the most verifiable evidence, the most absolute claims for devinity (Prophecy), etc.. etc.. is less likely true than the SELF religion? That might take a while and I am heading out but I will check back to see what you post peace.
My mind is not a democracy, and most of the things I've read in the Bible have
not been proven. The reason I think christianity is less likely true than the
"Self" religion is because I'm real and I can prove it.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I understand what you're saying now. What I meant is I think every religion
is right to the one who follows it until proven otherwise. Now that should'nt
cheapen an "actual true religion".
Now we are getting somewhere. I can't ask you to accept my position but I appreciate your understanding of it.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I don't even know if "heaven' is real.
Understandable. What I want to know is why you think the most tested and respected book in history is likely less accurate than a philisophical evaluation of self (I have no idea what that even means).


My mind is not a democracy, and most of the things I've read in the Bible have not been proven. The reason I think christianity is less likely true than the
"Self" religion is because I'm real and I can prove it.
Whether I find any merit in your position I do appreciate humor. The fact that you are real is not evidence suffecient for justifying scrutiny in exclussion to actual religions. At least the big three. I agree that most of the supernatural claims may be unprovable but not for a lack of evidence. However 25,000 historical corroberations combined with over 2300 detailed prophecies includeing over 350 on just one person alone, philisophical consistency, explanitory power, a perfectly consistent narrative over the course of over 1000 years and 40 authors etc......cannot be considered unworthy of the utmost scrutiny. Any way I am out of here but I didn't want to leave on a bad note. Shalom.
 
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