The Rise of Christianity in the West

[Caladan]

I'm with Heathen Hammer on something here. How does humanity grow out of Paganism? I really don't see that we ever have, its just carried on as something else. Christianity has lots of Paganism in it.

There is plenty of pagan baggage to historical and contemporary Christianity. But you asked a specific question, and I personally provided a new perspective which was addressed by prominent scholars. And that is that Christianity appealed to people who before that lived in Pagan societies.

Also are we calling the evolution of Europe and North Africa from Paganism's looser ethics and more open societies to Christianity's more uniform system a progression?

I didn't comment on anything like that, but it could be an interesting debate in another thread. However, the debate is also going to be anachronistic since we have no living pagans or early Christians to interview.

Because if we are we'd then have to call the west's return to looser ethics under secularism a regression.

In many regards, secularism is a welcome change. But that's a topic for a different thread. The topic of the thread is to explore the decline in pagan religion and the increase toward Christianity. It is a historical reality that people did leave their pagan upbringing and even environment in order to take on a new faith and a new communal life.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Yeah Caladan you're right. Way to derail my own thread

 

[Caladan]

Yeah Caladan you're right. Way to derail my own thread

I guess I should address a few points though, as a couple of members already took issues with my posts.
I am not saying that Christianity is superior to Paganism. I am merely addressing the fact that Christianity appealed to people who were pagan before that, their conversion occured before Christianity became a state religion which is in itself an interesting fact that can shed light on the decline of paganism in the ancient Mediterranean world. There is a time frame before Christianity appeared and before it became a state religion, that it spread against the odds of often being persecuted.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Caladan yes that is a good point. I wonder how large Christianity was though before it was legalized?

 

[fallingblood]

Caladan yes that is a good point. I wonder how large Christianity was though before it was legalized?

I believe it was like a third of the empire. Still a minority, but a large one.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Those people who bring up the Church and a state religion have decided not to cover a period in which Christianity as a people's religion, which was often persecuted made incredible gains in converts and in philosophical debates.

I am remind of the Church Father Justin Martyr and his conversion to Christianity, in part, because of the fearless Christians facing execution in the arena. There was something very convincing about early Christianity. Many of the early Christian thinkers were also able to compete with the Greek and Roman Philosophers of their day.

 

[Penumbra]

I want all of your thoughts on what led to the decline of Pagan religions in the west nearly 1500 years ago and the increase toward Christianity. Was it the political powers of the time or was there more to it then that? Were the people of the empire looking for a new direction and Christianity just happened to catch their fancy? You tell me what factors you think influenced the Pagan world's shift.

Note- I won't be participating in this thread. This is basically to collect data for lack of a better term, and I know you'll all give me some good opinions

There may be some frubals in it for you

Many Greek-turned-Roman philosophies were replaced as well. Stoicism, Aristotelianism, Epicureanism, and Platonism all declined in popularity after a certain point under the Roman Empire.

I don't know the specific reasons. I guess Christianity appealed to what people in that region wanted more.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes, because 'convert or die' is not an actual spiritual success. The False God wasn't entirely successful either, but, that's for another thread.

But Christianity did indeed spread to many places before "convert or die" became law of the land. Ireland even practically welcomed Catholicism with open arms. And even many Northern European kings also converted. I also fail to see how a religion can be spread by the sword when it's followers where being fed to the lions by the state.

Because if we are we'd then have to call the west's return to looser ethics under secularism a regression.

What's wrong with secularism? Ideally it's best suited to preserve the individual freedom of religious choice, as well as other freedoms and liberties, by ensuring the government is not driven by a religious agenda.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I wasn't saying I disagreed with secularism. You may wish to read my post more closely

 

[waitasec]

Many Greek-turned-Roman philosophies were replaced as well. Stoicism, Aristotelianism, Epicureanism, and Platonism all declined in popularity after a certain point under the Roman Empire.

I don't know the specific reasons. I guess Christianity appealed to what people in that region wanted more.

i came across this theory,
it was because these were a people that were suffering. and since their savior suffered and conquered death, their own suffering wouldn't be in vain.

 

[work in progress]

I believe it was like a third of the empire. Still a minority, but a large one.

Show me the numbers!

Not that Wikipedia is the last word on every subject, but the wiki page that covers this part of Roman history says:

The spread of the faith in the western Mediterranean and western Europe was relatively limited in the first few centuries though some significant Christian communities emerged in Rome, Carthage, and other urban centers. Nevertheless, by the end of the 3rd century Christianity had become the dominant faith in some urban centers. Christians accounted for approximately 10% of the Roman population by 300, according to some estimates.[6]​

 

[lunakilo]

But for what it's worth, it certainly took a longer time and more efforts to truly establish Christian beliefs in very strong folk traditions who were rooted in the psychology and everyday life of the people of Northern Europe.

Yes, because 'convert or die' is not an actual spiritual success. The False God wasn't entirely successful either, but, that's for another thread.

As a descendant of those northerners I feel like I have to make a comment here (even if it is a bit off topic, but hey who cares when everybody is having fun)

1) The conversion of the people of Northern Europe did not really take longer, it just started later. The first missionaries showed up in Denmark around 800 and Denmark oficially adopted christianity as a state religion in about 1050. That is about the same time scale as in the south as far as I know. About 300 years give or take a little.

2) Most of Northern Europe was not converted by the sword. There is the baltics because they were 'too slow to convert on their own', but for the most part it happened quite peacefully. It was not untill the religion was well established that the violence began.

3) It always amazes me that people forget that 300 years is a long time. That is something like 10 generations. It is not like people woke up one day and decided "Hey! Lets all convert to christianity because that seems to be the furure". The people who started the process didn't know where it would lead, and the people who finished it probably didn't even notice that they were doing so.

 

[work in progress]

As a descendant of those northerners I feel like I have to make a comment here (even if it is a bit off topic, but hey who cares when everybody is having fun)

1) The conversion of the people of Northern Europe did not really take longer, it just started later. The first missionaries showed up in Denmark around 800 and Denmark oficially adopted christianity as a state religion in about 1050. That is about the same time scale as in the south as far as I know. About 300 years give or take a little.

2) Most of Northern Europe was not converted by the sword. There is the baltics because they were 'too slow to convert on their own', but for the most part it happened quite peacefully. It was not untill the religion was well established that the violence began.

3) It always amazes me that people forget that 300 years is a long time. That is something like 10 generations. It is not like people woke up one day and decided "Hey! Lets all convert to christianity because that seems to be the furure". The people who started the process didn't know where it would lead, and the people who finished it probably didn't even notice that they were doing so.

Not that I am sentimental about the old pagan religions of Europe, although I think replacing a people's religion also destroys a lot of their culture...at least that's what happened here in North America...anyway, back to the point, how much of that gradual conversion process you describe contained persecutions and killings that were not kept in the public record and wallpapered over by the Church authorities afterwards?

There are some notable cases where the Church did order wars of conversion of the last pagan holdouts. For example, check out the Wikipedia article on the Teutonic Knights, and scroll down to the "Against Lithuania" subheading, and check out the long, bloody war of conquest the Pope ordered against one of the last pagan holdouts in Europe who refused conversion and allegiance to the Vatican. I think the history of Christianity in Europe, if it can be distilled, is one of a messianic religion becoming extremely popular among lower classes in the Roman Empire, chosen by an emperor who saw this new religion as a possible unifying force to keep the Empire together, and then enforcing orthodoxy among its scattered churches, and finally, when it had reached almost absolute power, forcing neighbouring nations to convert or be put to the sword by their knights. So, Christendom became extremely oppressive and despotic when it had the power to do so, and that's how secular movements got started to clip their wings! And modern Europeans should be extremely vigilant against this Pope and his minions who seek to take back power over the people that they have mostly lost...except for Poland it seems!

 

[fallingblood]

Show me the numbers!

Not that Wikipedia is the last word on every subject, but the wiki page that covers this part of Roman history says:

The spread of the faith in the western Mediterranean and western Europe was relatively limited in the first few centuries though some significant Christian communities emerged in Rome, Carthage, and other urban centers. Nevertheless, by the end of the 3rd century Christianity had become the dominant faith in some urban centers. Christians accounted for approximately 10% of the Roman population by 300, according to some estimates.[6]​

I will admit I was probably wrong. Thinking about it, 10% seems much more likely. I knew it was a small portion, but I should have double checked. Thanks for the information.

 

[lunakilo]

Not that I am sentimental about the old pagan religions of Europe, although I think replacing a people's religion also destroys a lot of their culture...at least that's what happened here in North America...anyway, back to the point, how much of that gradual conversion process you describe contained persecutions and killings that were not kept in the public record and wallpapered over by the Church authorities afterwards?

There are some notable cases where the Church did order wars of conversion of the last pagan holdouts. For example, check out the Wikipedia article on the Teutonic Knights, and scroll down to the "Against Lithuania" subheading, and check out the long, bloody war of conquest the Pope ordered against one of the last pagan holdouts in Europe who refused conversion and allegiance to the Vatican. I think the history of Christianity in Europe, if it can be distilled, is one of a messianic religion becoming extremely popular among lower classes in the Roman Empire, chosen by an emperor who saw this new religion as a possible unifying force to keep the Empire together, and then enforcing orthodoxy among its scattered churches, and finally, when it had reached almost absolute power, forcing neighbouring nations to convert or be put to the sword by their knights. So, Christendom became extremely oppressive and despotic when it had the power to do so, and that's how secular movements got started to clip their wings! And modern Europeans should be extremely vigilant against this Pope and his minions who seek to take back power over the people that they have mostly lost...except for Poland it seems!

I think that you possibly misread my post
This is basically what I said:

Timeline:
800 - first missionaries
1050 - oficial adoption of christianity
12xx - forced conversion (e.g. the baltics that you and I both mention)

Look at the dates. We are talking centuries here.
And I think we are basically saying the same thing. That is, in the beginning the conversion was peaceful. I don't know of any forced conversions in the beginning, how could there be, the christians were in the minority, and forced conversions only work if you have power.

Later (centuries later/many generations later) when christianity had become a powerful religion, that is when you see violence.

And as for the popes and his minons and his power over the people of Europe, did you ever hear about the reformation? And did you ever check out how little people in northern europe care about religion
Not that the pope does not have a lot of influence around the world, but northern europe is not one of those places nor do I think it is in danger of becomming one of those places.

 

[work in progress]

I think that you possibly misread my post
This is basically what I said:

Timeline:
800 - first missionaries
1050 - oficial adoption of christianity
12xx - forced conversion (e.g. the baltics that you and I both mention)

Look at the dates. We are talking centuries here.
And I think we are basically saying the same thing. That is, in the beginning the conversion was peaceful. I don't know of any forced conversions in the beginning, how could there be, the christians were in the minority, and forced conversions only work if you have power.

Later (centuries later/many generations later) when christianity had become a powerful religion, that is when you see violence.

No, even the Wikipedia article on the Christianization of Scandinavia notes pagan uprisings and persecutions starting in the 800's. It's a mistake to contend that the conversion to Christianity was carried out peacefully and without coercion and threats. The difference in the case of Lithuania was that the Holy Roman Empire had enough power by that time to order its knights to wage war against neighbouring pagan nations.

And as for the popes and his minons and his power over the people of Europe, did you ever hear about the reformation? And did you ever check out how little people in northern europe care about religion
Not that the pope does not have a lot of influence around the world, but northern europe is not one of those places nor do I think it is in danger of becomming one of those places.

The Reformation started a lot of carnage and bloodletting for many decades in Europe. The only reason why a secular ethic -- that people of different religious sects have to be civil towards one another -- took over, was because both sides realized the war between Catholics and Lutherans was unwinnable....but it sure took them a long time to realize it.

I've mentioned a few times before about the lack of interest in religion in Northern Europe...which Richard Dawkins especially cites as an example of nations turning to atheism, that life is generally good in these countries, and there are no social functions that are necessary for the Church to provide...except for weddings and funerals. On the other hand - in the U.S., many people with young families started flocking to these mostly evangelical megachurches that started sprouting up all across America because local governments were cutting services for daycare and even afterschool activities. As an anecdote, one of my cousins in Grand Rapids MI, told me that was the reason he and his wife joined a church -- it wasn't for the Sunday sermons! And now that their kids are getting older, I'm not even sure if they still attend church. But, the evangelicals noticed a need that wasn't being filled and filled the gap.

The lack of social services in the U.S. is almost certainly a big part of the reason why they are an anomaly -- a wealthier nation with a relatively high percentage of religiosity and church participation. And the general trend is that prosperity, peace and comfort lead towards more secularism and a decline in religiosity, while poverty, deprivation, and fear lead to a strengthening of religion and religious institutions. So, maybe things are good right now in Denmark, but from where I see it, things are looking up good for religion!

 

[lunakilo]

No, even the Wikipedia article on the Christianization of Scandinavia notes pagan uprisings and persecutions starting in the 800's. It's a mistake to contend that the conversion to Christianity was carried out peacefully and without coercion and threats. The difference in the case of Lithuania was that the Holy Roman Empire had enough power by that time to order its knights to wage war against neighbouring pagan nations.

Hmm, I didn't see anything about persecutions in the 800's. And pagan uprisings is actually just the oposite of forced conversions to christianity.

I had forgotten about that episode about the danish king hitting the norwegian king with christianity. But still, this happened late in the 900's, almost 200 years after the introduction of christianity, and I am not sure if religion was the core of the issue or if they had some other reason to fight. Another funny thing is that Denmark wasn't oficially a christian country yet at the time

But all in all, when I read the wiki article I don't find a lot of violence in there.
Mostly what I get from it is people living their lives and barely noticing any change in religion. Like...

Even after becoming Christian, Danes blended the two belief systems together. Families who lived close to the earth did not want to offend the local spirits (Danish: landvætter), so offerings were left just as they had been in pre-Christian days. Sacred springs (Danish: kilder) were simply consecrated to one of the local saints associated with the spring and life went on much as it had before. Christian missionaries were able to help the process along by locating churches on or near sacred places, in some cases actually using wood from the sacred groves for church construction. Thor's hammer sign was easily absorbed by the cross.

Of course I am most familiar with the history of my own country and may be ignoring events eslewhere. I love the part about iceland:

Violent clashes were avoided by the decision of the Althing in 1000 AD to put the arbitration between them to Þorgeir Ljósvetningagoði, the leader of the pagan faction. He opted, after a day and a night of meditation, that the country should convert to Christianity as a whole, while pagan worship in private would continue to be tolerated.[18]

The Reformation started a lot of carnage and bloodletting for many decades in Europe. The only reason why a secular ethic -- that people of different religious sects have to be civil towards one another -- took over, was because both sides realized the war between Catholics and Lutherans was unwinnable....but it sure took them a long time to realize it.

Carnage -- check
No more listening to the pope --- check (which was my point)
And I fail to see what secular ethic has to do with the reformation.

... and I thing we are getting futher and futher off topic. It seems we are getting to the decline of christianity in the west which was not really what the topic wa about.

I've mentioned a few times before about the lack of interest in religion in Northern Europe...which Richard Dawkins especially cites as an example of nations turning to atheism, that life is generally good in these countries, and there are no social functions that are necessary for the Church to provide...except for weddings and funerals. On the other hand - in the U.S., many people with young families started flocking to these mostly evangelical megachurches that started sprouting up all across America because local governments were cutting services for daycare and even afterschool activities. As an anecdote, one of my cousins in Grand Rapids MI, told me that was the reason he and his wife joined a church -- it wasn't for the Sunday sermons! And now that their kids are getting older, I'm not even sure if they still attend church. But, the evangelicals noticed a need that wasn't being filled and filled the gap.

The lack of social services in the U.S. is almost certainly a big part of the reason why they are an anomaly -- a wealthier nation with a relatively high percentage of religiosity and church participation. And the general trend is that prosperity, peace and comfort lead towards more secularism and a decline in religiosity, while poverty, deprivation, and fear lead to a strengthening of religion and religious institutions. So, maybe things are good right now in Denmark, but from where I see it, things are looking up good for religion!

Probably all true, but what is your point?

 

[work in progress]

Hmm, I didn't see anything about persecutions in the 800's. And pagan uprisings is actually just the oposite of forced conversions to christianity.

HOw do you figure that? When I read "uprising" such as here:" a pagan uprising in Birka that resulted in the martyrdom of Nithard and forced the resident missionary Bishop Gautbert to flee."[11] I assume that they had something they were rebelling against, like the forced conversions to Christianity. Worth noting that there were no newspapers at this time, and the records available on historical events were recorded by monks....and do we really have to work hard to understand who's side they were on? How much of the historical record was just omitted or lost? Because it wasn't useful to the Church.

But all in all, when I read the wiki article I don't find a lot of violence in there.
Mostly what I get from it is people living their lives and barely noticing any change in religion. Like...

Even after becoming Christian, Danes blended the two belief systems together. Families who lived close to the earth did not want to offend the local spirits (Danish: landvætter), so offerings were left just as they had been in pre-Christian days. Sacred springs (Danish: kilder) were simply consecrated to one of the local saints associated with the spring and life went on much as it had before. Christian missionaries were able to help the process along by locating churches on or near sacred places, in some cases actually using wood from the sacred groves for church construction. Thor's hammer sign was easily absorbed by the cross.

Of course I am most familiar with the history of my own country and may be ignoring events eslewhere. I love the part about iceland:

Violent clashes were avoided by the decision of the Althing in 1000 AD to put the arbitration between them to Þorgeir Ljósvetningagoði, the leader of the pagan faction. He opted, after a day and a night of meditation, that the country should convert to Christianity as a whole, while pagan worship in private would continue to be tolerated.[18]

This story is not a whole lot different than that of the British Isles. At first, they tolerated paganism in the countryside, and even used it to their advantage if needed to help suppress rebellions. But, as Church authorities increased in power, they became more adamant about stamping out paganism.

Carnage -- check
No more listening to the pope --- check (which was my point)

The difference between the Lutheran Church and the Catholic Church is not much different than the Anglican - they just stopped swearing allegiance to the Pope. It didn't usher in the Age of Enlightenment in the year 1000. And judging from Martin Luther's persecution of Jews and advocacy for driving all the Jews out of Europe, I don't see how that was a great improvement!

 

[Rainbow Mage]

We haven't even touched on how Christianity converted the Americas yet in a wave of terror unparalleled by anything in Europe.

 

[work in progress]

We haven't even touched on how Christianity converted the Americas yet in a wave of terror unparalleled by anything in Europe.

Since a quarter of my ancestry is Native American, that's one that I would like to unpack when I have a little more time. The American experience for natives was one of continuous plunder and eviction from their lands. Many tribes ended up in Canada because there was more open land. The successive waves of European immigrants arriving at Ellis Island were shipped off to the West or encouraged to go west as fast as possible.

But, in Canada, the single most destructive crime against native peoples is one that most aboriginal communities haven't really recovered from -- the obliteration of our cultures by the forced removal of children to native boarding schools run by the United, Anglican, and Catholic churches. They got their good christian education, and learned to read and write in english....many of whom were permanently damaged by sexual and/or physical abuse in these schools that went on for decades. When the children finished their education, some of them moved back to the Rez, while a lot of them felt like they couldn't go back, or thought they had better prospects in the cities....where they have ended up as chronic substance abuse cases with alcohol and drug addictions.

Many native communities have tried to put back what they lost before the christianization....I'm thinking primarily of the Iroquois communities....but it's questionable whether a lot of the people who call themselves "native healers" today really understand the traditions and rituals. And the movement back to the old ways has spawned some irrational overreactions -- like the new pseudo-creationism that they always lived here, and were created here, that includes rejection and attempts to interfere with archaeological research of the migration patterns after the last ice age. In a nutshell, Christianity hasn't been good for the vast majority of native peoples of North America.