The Role of God in Theistic Religion - Does God Care for Religion, or Does Religion Care for God?

[LuisDantas]

Some of the posts in this thread

Hindu View on Other Religions | Page 3 | ReligiousForums.com

remind me of one of my objections to the idea that religion should define itself as a manifestation of the desire of some deity.

While I understand that those who believe in deities will naturally want to follow whatever paths they see as being in harmony with the will of those deities, the fact remains that their understandings can and do vary quite a lot when it comes to what those deities want from them.

That is particularly problematic for the monotheisms - which in practice include Hinduism as well. By relying on the idea that God is one and the same for all believers, they are in effect leaving divergent understandings alone without challenge or questioning. While that is usually proper and safe, there are situations when firm challenges to destructive religious stances are needed.

The way I see it, religious practice should allow and accommodate for (but never demand) belief in deities according to the inclinations of the practicioner. But it should never rely on the idea that God (or, less seriously, a specific deity) will ensure some sort of ultimate proper understanding of religious values. Facts are way too clear in showing that monotheistic practice does not lead to a common ground of values and understanding to any meaningful degree.

For better or worse, it is human responsibility to care for the general values of our religious practice. A supernatural God may or may not exist, but he most certainly isn't guiding his believers towards a proper religious understanding. Maybe he does not exist as such; maybe he wants his believers to be capable of making their own judgements about what is proper.

Opinions?

 

[StarryNightshade]

I honestly believe that it is religion that cares for God. To him/her, we are but a tiny blue speck in the eyes of the Divine. As such, when one practices a religion, it is their way to trying to connect with the Divinity.

We ultimately have to make our own judgments and follow them wisely. The moment one believes that what they practice is the "one true faith", or that it was literally (and specifically) given to them specially by God, then there is potential for problems.

 

[LuisDantas]

Personally, I think the subject matter of religion is what I sometimes call The Sacred, which many people call the Divine, but can and should be understood to the best of our human abilities and taken responsibility for accordingly.

The danger IMO is in expecting God to care for the wisdom of our actions, in effect removing our own responsibility.

 

[bobhikes]

Personally, I think God would care for Religion but the undertones not the day to day, specifics or political aspects of it. Through out most religions the underlying theme is the same. God is trying to make an impression on the individual and allow them to find there way to God.

For the most part I don't believe religions care for God. They are all about growth producing numbers, exclusions, rules and regulation. They become there own creation interpreting Gods words to support there growth. However that being said within each organized religion individuals rise the the heights of God worship and are eventually supported and praised by the religion. That is not to say that outside of religion people don't rise to great heights it is easier to get support from an organization like religion. Charities will tend to give support without compromising the person's beliefs. Political groups and Government organizations as well as labor unions will force compromise of beliefs for support.

 

[LuisDantas]

Don't you agree that there are dangerous, misguided movements claiming to be religions, though?

It seems to me that this is a significant challenge that does not receive enough attention: how to deal with such misguidance?

For the most part we tend to simply avoid the subject, but that is not always a good idea.

 

[DawudTalut]

Some of the posts in this thread

Hindu View on Other Religions | Page 3 | ReligiousForums.com

remind me of one of my objections to the idea that religion should define itself as a manifestation of the desire of some deity.

While I understand that those who believe in deities will naturally want to follow whatever paths they see as being in harmony with the will of those deities, the fact remains that their understandings can and do vary quite a lot when it comes to what those deities want from them.

That is particularly problematic for the monotheisms - which in practice include Hinduism as well. By relying on the idea that God is one and the same for all believers, they are in effect leaving divergent understandings alone without challenge or questioning. While that is usually proper and safe, there are situations when firm challenges to destructive religious stances are needed.

The way I see it, religious practice should allow and accommodate for (but never demand) belief in deities according to the inclinations of the practicioner. But it should never rely on the idea that God (or, less seriously, a specific deity) will ensure some sort of ultimate proper understanding of religious values. Facts are way too clear in showing that monotheistic practice does not lead to a common ground of values and understanding to any meaningful degree.

For better or worse, it is human responsibility to care for the general values of our religious practice. A supernatural God may or may not exist, but he most certainly isn't guiding his believers towards a proper religious understanding. Maybe he does not exist as such; maybe he wants his believers to be capable of making their own judgements about what is proper.

Opinions?

Peace be on you.
Allah has desired and has chosen a path for us and saved it for us:

Holy Quran @ alislam.org/quran

[2:173] O ye who believe! eat of the good things We have provided for you, and render thanks to Allah, if it is He Whom you worship.

[2:113] Nay, whoever submits himself completely to Allah, and is the doer of good, shall have his reward with his Lord. No fear shall come upon such, neither shall they grieve.

[3:20] Surely, the true religion with Allah is Islam (complete submission). And those who were given the Book did not disagree but after knowledge had come to them, out of mutual envy. And whoso denies the Signs of Allah, then surely, Allah is quick at reckoning.

[4:126] And who is better in faith than he who submits himself to Allah, and he is a doer of good, and follows the religion of Abraham, the upright? And Allah took Abraham for a special friend.

[5:4] .............................This day have those who disbelieve despaired of harming your religion. So fear them not, but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour upon you and have chosen for you Islam as religion. But whoso is forced by hunger, without being wilfully inclined to sin, then, surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.

[15:10] Verily, We Ourselves have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We will be its Guardian.



Prophet and his Khilafat show how to practice the teaching:

[58:22] Allah has decreed: ‘Most surely I will prevail, I and My Messengers.’ Verily, Allah is Powerful, Mighty.

[24:56] Allah has promised to those among you who believe and do good works that He will surely make them Successors in the earth, as He made Successors from among those who were before them; and that He will surely establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them; and that He will surely give them in exchange security and peace after their fear: They will worship Me, and they will not associate anything with Me. Then whoso is ungrateful after that, they will be the rebellious.


It is people who do not esteem God:
[39:68] And they do not esteem Allah, with the esteem that is due to Him. And the whole earth will be but His handful on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be rolled up in His right hand. Glory to Him and exalted is He above that which they associate with Him.

[7:41] Those who reject Our Signs and turn away from them with disdain, the gates of the spiritual firmament will not be opened for them, nor will they enter Heaven until a camel goes through the eye of a needle. And thus do We requite the offenders.


There are those who understand and remain steadfast they get blessings:

[7:202] As to those who are righteous, when a suggestion from Satan assails them, they remember God: and behold! they begin to see things rightly.

[10:10] But as for those who believe, and do good works — their Lord will guide them because of their faith. Rivers shall flow beneath them in the Gardens of Bliss.

[19:97] Those who believe and do good deeds — the Gracious God will create love in their hearts.

[41:31] As for those who say, ‘Our Lord is Allah,’ and then remain steadfast, the angels descend on them, saying: ‘Fear ye not, nor grieve; and rejoice in the Garden that you were promised.

and so on....

Good wishes.

 

[LuisDantas]

So, you are saying that I am wrong altogether, Dawud?

 

[DawudTalut]

Peace be on you. Yes please.

 

[Quintessence]

I'll be honest... the idea that religion is the manifestation of the desires of a deity is very, very strange and foreign to me. Regardless of whether or not a religion is inspired by gods, it is primarily a manifestation of human desires as religions are a human cultural phenomena.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'll be honest... the idea that religion is the manifestation of the desires of a deity is very, very strange and foreign to me. Regardless of whether or not a religion is inspired by gods, it is primarily a manifestation of human desires as religions are a human cultural phenomena.

That makes two of us then, Quintessence.

 

[bobhikes]

Don't you agree that there are dangerous, misguided movements claiming to be religions, though?

It seems to me that this is a significant challenge that does not receive enough attention: how to deal with such misguidance?

For the most part we tend to simply avoid the subject, but that is not always a good idea.

Of course there are misguided movements but for me no more than exists in governments and any other type of organization.

 

[bobhikes]

In thinking about it I would say that most other organizations are far more misguided than religions. I can state that every politician is corrupt and most people would agree with me and those that don't won't protest to hard. With religion it claims to be from a higher authority so its failures make it hypocritical and more people see this as misguidance.

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

The only "religion" G-d is concerned about is Love. If i have not the power to "Love" my neighbor as i do my own wretched self. My religion is altogether, vain, and worthless.

~>Rom_13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

~>1Co 13:4 Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
~>1Co 13:5 doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil;
~>1Co 13:6 rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth;
~>1Co 13:7 beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
~>1Co 13:8 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away.
~>1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
~>1Co 13:10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
~>1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things.
~>1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known.
~>1Co 13:13 But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.


Blessings...
SC

 

[LuisDantas]

In thinking about it I would say that most other organizations are far more misguided than religions. I can state that every politician is corrupt and most people would agree with me and those that don't won't protest to hard. With religion it claims to be from a higher authority so its failures make it hypocritical and more people see this as misguidance.

Politics is seen with considerable mistrust, though. And I don't think there are many other organizations with influence and reach comparable to religion.

More worrisome of all, religious hypocrites often enough carry on having considerable influence even after being exposed.

 

[LuisDantas]

Peace be on you. Yes please.

Trouble is, the world as it can be perceived simply does not support your statement.

 

[Erebus]

[QUOTE="LuisDantas, post: 4017758, member: 16218"
The way I see it, religious practice should allow and accommodate for (but never demand) belief in deities according to the inclinations of the practicioner. But it should never rely on the idea that God (or, less seriously, a specific deity) will ensure some sort of ultimate proper understanding of religious values.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely agreed.

The way I see it, if a deity wanted people to follow it in a certain way then it could easily make this clear. Personally though, I doubt that gods have any desires remotely understandable to humans in the first place. As such, it's up to us to create our own image of the gods if we so wish. I don't believe that theism should be considered compulsory or inherently virtuous, to me it's another tool to be used or discarded as needed.

 

[paarsurrey]

Does God Care for Religion?

Yes, G-d does care about religion, guiding the humans to the straight path of knowing Him. It is for this that He had been sending/and does send prophets/messengers whenever the message gets forgotten or gets dimmed.

Regards

 

[DawudTalut]

Trouble is, the world as it can be perceived simply does not support your statement.

These latter days are like a grand factory or facility where some are working according to instruction manual others are not, more than that they think they are the owner of everything. The struggle goes on. Good will succeed. Have hopes.

 

[LuisDantas]

These latter days are like a grand factory or facility where some are working according to instruction manual others are not, more than that they think they are the owner of everything. The struggle goes on. Good will succeed. Have hopes.

If you mean hope for the existence of God, that is just not a matter for me.

 

[DawudTalut]

If you mean hope for the existence of God, that is just not a matter for me.

For me God exists...Above, I meant to have hope for people living according to commandants of God and having peaceful life, not using name of God for selfish reason or totally denying God.