The role of the Christian Church

[Desert Snake]

"Shabbat" is a day of the week as found in Hebrew, so what you are in essence saying is that [mostly] Saturday is Sunday, which is illogical.

"Shabbat" is a day of rest with many restrictions as found in Torah, so do you follow all of those restrictions? Do you know what they are?

I'm not supposed to, Jesus teaches to not hold the saturday shabbat.

That is why it is noted in the Bible, Jesus directly defies and nullifies saturday shabbat.

 

[Desert Snake]

"Shabbat" is a day of the week as found in Hebrew, so what you are in essence saying is that [mostly] Saturday is Sunday, which is illogical.

"Shabbat" is a day of rest with many restrictions as found in Torah, so do you follow all of those restrictions? Do you know what they are?

Shabbat just means day of rest, it's the seventh day, which arbitrarily might be associated with Saturday, or Saturn's day.
Jesus directly nullifies saturday shabbat, it's a teaching in the Bible.
The Lords day, or Lords shabbat, you could call it, is on sunday, and why would they use a different day, if they believed saturday shabbat to be in effect.

 

[Kenny]

And that's where I think Jesus was coming from, which was not entirely unique since the Hillel school also though much the same even though they still felt following the entire Law was important as long as its base was to "do not do unto others that which you would not want done unto yourself". IOW, the law could be a bit more flexible under Hillel's opinion, but not to the degree that Jesus and the apostles took it..

Just a reminder that not all of the 613 Commandments relate to interpersonal relationships, and an example of this are the kosher Laws. Therefore, Hillel could not abandon those whereas the early church in general did after Peter's vision, except for those called "Ebionites" who were very reluctant to abandon the Law.

Quite possible that Hillel was listening to God IMO.

I think it is quite possible many of the kosher laws were quite important. For an example, the fish that were not kosher, science today knows that shrimp and the like can be very harmful (not to mention the importance of them to clean the sea). If my mother eats shrimp -- gout flares up for a reason.

 

[Kenny]

Wrong... you are aware of the Lords Shabbat. Which is sunday.

I don't believe it is a Sunday. The Lord's Shabbat is a place of faith where we labor to enter into rest.

Heb 3;10 Wherefore I was displeased with this generation, And said, They do always err in their heart: But they did not know my ways;
11 As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.
12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God:
13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called To-day; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin:
14 for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end:
15 while it is said, To-day if ye shall hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

If you want to worship on a particular day or any day, or every day (my preference)... just do it in faith.

Rom 14:
4 Who art thou that judgest the servant of another? to his own lord he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be made to stand; for the Lord hath power to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord: and he that eateth, eateth unto the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, unto the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

 

[metis]

I'm not supposed to, Jesus teaches to not hold the saturday shabbat.

That is why it is noted in the Bible, Jesus directly defies and nullifies saturday shabbat.

Verse(s) please?

Theologians and historians well know that Jesus and the apostles observed the Sabbath, and they also know that the switch to a Sunday observance was not done until the 2nd century and appears to be gradual. If your church is telling you otherwise, maybe it's best to find a new one that deals with real theology and real history.

 

[metis]

Quite possible that Hillel was listening to God IMO.

I think it is quite possible many of the kosher laws were quite important. For an example, the fish that were not kosher, science today knows that shrimp and the like can be very harmful (not to mention the importance of them to clean the sea). If my mother eats shrimp -- gout flares up for a reason.

It's hard to say exactly how the kosher Laws came into existence, although the orthodox will attribute them entirely to God-- no questions need to be asked.

 

[Desert Snake]

Verse(s) please?

Theologians and historians well know that Jesus and the apostles observed the Sabbath, and they also know that the switch to a Sunday observance was not done until the 2nd century and appears to be gradual. If your church is telling you otherwise, maybe it's best to find a new one that deals with real theology and real history.

Theologians also messed up the John 1:18 verse interpretation, which I proved to be non literal.

Perhaps check out that thread.
3 John 1:11

•what you wrote is actually vague, as it assumes sort of natural change from saturday, to sunday.
Why.
When changes occur, in that manner, it's far more likely that the correct day was simply used exclusively, as churches stopped having to accommodate the Saturday Shabbat.

 

[metis]

Theologians also messed up the John 1:18 verse interpretation, which I proved to be non literal.

Perhaps check out that thread.
3 John 1:11

That verse has literally nothing to do with the issue of Shabbat. Secondly, the fact that you think you know more than these theolgians and historians that spend lifetimes studying such matters is really being quite arrogant and foolish. There are many half-way decent theology books available, and if you need any recommendations, just ask.

Even Wiki can help you: Sabbath in Christianity is the inclusion or adoption in Christianity of a Sabbathday. Established within Judaism through Mosaic Law, Christians inherited a Sabbath practice that reflected two great precepts: the commandment to "remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy" and God's blessing of the seventh day (Saturday) as a day of rest in the Genesis creation narrative and declared as made for man by Jesus. The first of these provisions was associated in Judaism with the assembly of the people to worship in the Temple in Jerusalem or in synagogues.

The position now dominant in Western Christianity is that observance of the Lord's Day, Sunday, supplanted or superseded the Sabbath commandment in that the former "celebrated the Christian community's deliverance from captivity to sin, Satan, and worldly passions, made possible by the resurrection on the first day of the week." Early Christians observed the seventh day Sabbath with prayer and rest, but they also gathered on the first day. By the 4th century, Catholics were officially observing the first day, Sunday, as their day of rest, not the seventh...

Early Christians continued to pray and rest on the seventh day. By the 2nd century AD some Christians also observed Sunday, the day of the week on which Jesus had risen from the dead and on which the Holy Spirit had come to the apostles...

•what you wrote is actually vague, as it assumes sort of natural change from saturday, to sunday.
Why.
When changes occur, in that manner, it's far more likely that the correct day was simply used exclusively, as churches stopped having to accommodate the Saturday Shabbat.

No, the changes mainly occurred because the early church gradually became less Jewish and more Gentile, thus Jewish Law was no longer felt to be necessary. However, we know that this did not happen until around the the beginning of the 2nd century, and some local churches may have held onto the Saturday observance even longer.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So, what is the role of the Christian Church?

To propagate the Christian Church.

Why is there a clergy, why is there hierarchy?

In many cases, there isn't either.

Is religion a personal issue or not? If religion is personal, then why the priesthood?

I'm not sure what you mean by "personal."

And why so many denominations?

I've come up with three options:

- the whole thing was created by humans,
- your god just isn't good at communicating clearly, or
- Christianity is an elaborate ruse by a trickster-god, like Loki or Coyote.

 

[Desert Snake]

That verse has literally nothing to do with the issue of Shabbat. Secondly, the fact that you think you know more than these theolgians and historians that spend lifetimes studying such matters is really being quite arrogant and foolish. There are many half-way decent theology books available, and if you need any recommendations, just ask.

Even Wiki can help you: Sabbath in Christianity is the inclusion or adoption in Christianity of a Sabbathday.

Colossians 2:16
Notice something? 'Sabbath days', not Sabbath day. That already, logically, by the way, notes why there was a sunday Shabbat, in the first place. Because they already had it. The details of observance are moot to this argument, and we know that they had a sunday Shabbat, and it is called the Lords Day. So, where are you even getting all this speculation from?

Established within Judaism through Mosaic Law, Christians inherited a Sabbath practice that reflected two great precepts: the commandment to "remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy" and God's blessing of the seventh day (Saturday) as a day of rest in the Genesis creation narrative and declared as made for man by Jesus. The first of these provisions was associated in Judaism with the assembly of the people to worship in the Temple in Jerusalem or in synagogues.

That is pretty weird that they would arbitrarily change it to a different day, don't you think? Your argument seems too speculative.

The position now dominant in Western Christianity is that observance of the Lord's Day, Sunday, supplanted or superseded the Sabbath commandment in that the former "celebrated the Christian community's deliverance from captivity to sin, Satan, and worldly passions, made possible by the resurrection on the first day of the week." Early Christians observed the seventh day Sabbath with prayer and rest, but they also gathered on the first day. By the 4th century, Catholics were officially observing the first day, Sunday, as their day of rest, not the seventh...

Early Christians continued to pray and rest on the seventh day. By the 2nd century AD some Christians also observed Sunday, the day of the week on which Jesus had risen from the dead and on which the Holy Spirit had come to the apostles...

Where is the logic? The resurrection occured before your theoretical 'change', of days, it's random speculation.

No, the changes mainly occurred because the early church gradually became less Jewish and more Gentile, thus Jewish Law was no longer felt to be necessary. However, we know that this did not happen until around the the beginning of the 2nd century, and some local churches may have held onto the Saturday observance even longer.

'Gentiles', aren't Christians. Gentiles is used as a sole descriptor for non Jesus followers, in the New Testament. There are basically three groups, which by words are used,
Gentiles
Jews
Jesus followers.
The Church in the New Testament, is called the Church of God, once "gentiles", become Jesus followers, or members of the Church of God, they are not called Gentiles, anymore. Jews also are not called Jews anymore, when they join, thusly why those descriptors are used.
In other words, they used those descriptions because it's practical, and denotes three separate groups.

 

[metis]

Colossians 2:16
Notice something? 'Sabbath days', not Sabbath day. That already, logically, by the way, notes why there was a sunday Shabbat, in the first place. Because they already had it. The details of observance are moot to this argument, and we know that they had a sunday Shabbat, and it is called the Lords Day. So, where are you even getting all this speculation from?

That is pretty weird that they would arbitrarily change it to a different day, don't you think? Your argument seems too speculative.


Where is the logic? The resurrection occured before your theoretical 'change', of days, it's random speculation.


'Gentiles', aren't Christians. Gentiles is used as a sole descriptor for non Jesus followers, in the New Testament. There are basically three groups, which by words are used,
Gentiles
Jews
Jesus followers.
The Church in the New Testament, is called the Church of God, once "gentiles", become Jesus followers, or members of the Church of God, they are not called Gentiles, anymore. Jews also are not called Jews anymore, when they join, thusly why those descriptors are used.
In other words, they used those descriptions because it's practical, and denotes three separate groups.

You literally do not know what you're talking about, so maybe find a new church that doesn't teach the above nonsense. Respond if you want, but I'm simply not going to waste any more time with this.

 

[syo]

- Christianity is an elaborate ruse by a trickster-god, like Loki or Coyote.

Glad you mention this. Religious people must be very careful not to be tricked by Trickster-gods!