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The Russia question!

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The Russian military personnel that occupied East Germany used to nail naked German women to doors, and carried out the worst rape epidemic I ever heard of, and were called "the army of rapists", where even little girls and old ladies were not spared!

Beings that the Soviets invaded Poland when the Nazis did, we had just as much reason to declare war on the Soviets (who were worse than the Nazis), and yet we were in an alliance with a regime more barbaric, more immoral, with a higher kill count than the Nazis!

That is what comes to mind when I think of East Germany! I can't imagine what life was like there!

One should keep in mind that many of the "truths" we've clung to in the West, especially in regards to our adversaries, may not be reliable information. While it's true that many Red Army troops did commit mass rape in Germany, it's also true that American troops did much the same thing. (Rape during the occupation of Germany - Wikipedia)

I'm not sure how useful it is to compare which regime is "more barbaric," but it is extremely doubtful that they had a higher kill count than the Nazis. Most of the kill count attributed to the Soviet Union by Western propagandists was wildly exaggerated and unsupported by evidence. That's not say that repression and atrocities didn't occur, but just that the loss of life was significantly less than what was commonly propagated during the Cold War.

Political repression in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

Estimates of the number of deaths attributable to Joseph Stalin vary widely. Some scholars assert that record-keeping of the executions of political prisoners and ethnic minorities are neither reliable nor complete;[5] others contend archival materials contain irrefutable data far superior to sources utilized prior to 1991, such as statements from emigres and other informants.[29][30] Those historians working after the Soviet Union's dissolution have estimated victim totals ranging from approximately 3 million[31] to nearly 9 million.[32] Some scholars still assert that the death toll could be in the tens of millions.[33]

Based on these numbers, the kill count attributed to the Soviet Union was considerably less than that which has been attributed to Nazi Germany.

Also, considering the 20 million deaths per year attributed to capitalism, capitalism is far more deadly and murderous than both Nazism and Communism combined.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I think we are closer to World war III now than during the Cuban missile crisis ;)
We were closer then than you realize.
Nuclear Close Calls: The Cuban Missile Crisis
Excerpted....
Unbeknownst to the Americans, the B-59 was equipped with a T-5 nuclear-tipped torpedo. It was capable of a blast equivalent to 10 kilotons of TNT, roughly two-thirds the strength of the bomb dropped on Hiroshima. Firing without a direct order from Moscow, however, required the consent of all three senior officers on board. Orlov remembered Captain Valentin Savitsky shouting, “We’re going to blast them now! We will die, but we will sink them all—we will not disgrace our Navy!” Political officer Ivan Semonovich Maslennikov agreed that they should launch the torpedo.

The last remaining officer, Second Captain Vasili Alexandrovich Arkhipov, dissented. They did not know for sure that the ship was under attack, he argued. Why not surface and then await orders from Moscow? In the end, Arkhipov’s view prevailed. The B-59 surfaced near the American warships and the submarine set off north to return to the Soviet Union without incident.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Also, considering the 20 million deaths per year attributed to capitalism, capitalism is far more deadly and murderous than both Nazism and Communism combined.
In past discussions, you attribute nearly every death
to capitalism....even when committed by commies.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
In past discussions, you attribute nearly every death
to capitalism....even when committed by commies.

upload_2022-4-27_7-3-6.png
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You've illustrated my point perfectly.
Every failure of government is due to capitalism.
Every failure of socialism is due to capitalism.

What do you liberals do with all the tax money
you collect from me? You don't assist the poor
all that much. Instead you wage wars, subsidize
spendy electric sports cars, sending millions of
people to prison, etc.
So all those deaths are actually due to liberals
who won's spend tax money to help them. And
to some extent, conservatives go along with you.

This is fun!
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You've illustrated my point perfectly.
Every failure of government is due to capitalism.
Every failure of socialism is due to capitalism.

What do you liberals do with all the tax money
you collect from me? You don't assist the poor
all that much. Instead you wage wars, subsidize
spendy electric sports cars, sending millions of
people to prison, etc.
So all those deaths are actually due to liberals
who won's spend tax money to help them. And
to some extent, conservatives go along with you.

This is fun!

What do you mean "you liberals"? Liberals are capitalists. Conservatives are capitalists. They're going along with you, not me.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
What do you mean "you liberals"?
The kind who vote for Democrats...the ones who
like to start & continue the wars, the prisons, etc.

Your mistake is thinking that there's capitalism, then
whatever goes wrong is caused by capitalism. But
you give government no responsibility for its failure
to use tax money to benefit the unproductive masses.
Note also that this socialism thing you so love has
an even worse record of assistance, eg, Holomodor,
Chinese famines.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
That feeling you get when Communism fell in Russia, and the Soviet Union fell roughly thirty years ago, and we are closer to nuclear war with the Russians now, than we were when they were Communist?
Communists must have been more reasonable than Putin, who is an authoritarian.

What would it take to have positive relationships between America and Russia?? Will there ever be such a thing?
The political relationship is vastly different than the relationship between cultures. Even back during the cold war the sporting relationship between the Eastern Blok nations and the West was pretty good, often hanging out with each other if possible. The 1980 boycott of the Russian Olympic Games pissed off a lot of American athletes. Today we are seeing bans in sports to Russian athletes, from F1 to tennis, among other sports. In a way it is unfair, but the invasion is way beyond just political, it is war crimes. there are many prominent Russian artists and athletes who oppose Putin and his decision for war and war crimes.

I guess relationship between the two nations was improving under Trump, but that was such a brief marriage now wasn't it, it doesn't really count!
But the relationship with our allies suffered, and NATO came close to being dissolved, as Putin wants. So not a good thing. France and Slovenia both rejected their authoritarian, pro-Putin candidates this past week. Authoritarianism is dangerous.

(That feeling you also get when Russia is at war with NATO, because obviously NATO has been giving Ukraine lots of weapons before the war started, which is one of the reasons Russia gave for invading in the first place.:rolleyes::oops:)
And Putin invaded Ukraine when Ukraine posed no threat. The weapons from NATO were for defense, not attack. So this all falls on Putin's poor judgment.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The kind who vote for Democrats...the ones who
like to start & continue the wars, the prisons, etc.

That's not me.

Your mistake is thinking that there's capitalism, then
whatever goes wrong is caused by capitalism. But
you give government no responsibility for its failure
to use tax money to benefit the unproductive masses.
Note also that this socialism thing you so love has
an even worse record of assistance, eg, Holomodor,
Chinese famines.

You say that socialism has a "worse record," but that's precisely what's under discussion by actually looking at the record.

Of course I give responsibility to government for its failures, but socialists also have a record of overthrowing failed governments. Socialists rile up the masses and agitate, while capitalists would rather the masses remain compliant and obedient to the State which they control and influence.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Bush/Cheney, those damn democrats.

And they lied about the evidence for war, but not a single mention. Hmmmm. Blame democrats.
I'm blaming Dems for the benefit of a particular poster
because he identifies more with them than the other side.
It's a reductio ad absurdum argument just for him.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
That's not me.
Well, you're certainly not on the other side of the aisle.
You say that socialism has a "worse record," but that's precisely what's under discussion by actually looking at the record.
But you mis-state the record by blaming everything
bad on capitalism simple because there is capitalism.
Of course I give responsibility to government for its failures, but socialists also have a record of overthrowing failed governments. Socialists rile up the masses and agitate, while capitalists would rather the masses remain compliant and obedient to the State which they control and influence.
Socialists have a record of 100% oppression & economic woe.
Capitalism at least has some successes.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
One should keep in mind that many of the "truths" we've clung to in the West, especially in regards to our adversaries, may not be reliable information. While it's true that many Red Army troops did commit mass rape in Germany, it's also true that American troops did much the same thing. (Rape during the occupation of Germany - Wikipedia)

I'm not sure how useful it is to compare which regime is "more barbaric," but it is extremely doubtful that they had a higher kill count than the Nazis. Most of the kill count attributed to the Soviet Union by Western propagandists was wildly exaggerated and unsupported by evidence. That's not say that repression and atrocities didn't occur, but just that the loss of life was significantly less than what was commonly propagated during the Cold War.

Political repression in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

Estimates of the number of deaths attributable to Joseph Stalin vary widely. Some scholars assert that record-keeping of the executions of political prisoners and ethnic minorities are neither reliable nor complete;[5] others contend archival materials contain irrefutable data far superior to sources utilized prior to 1991, such as statements from emigres and other informants.[29][30] Those historians working after the Soviet Union's dissolution have estimated victim totals ranging from approximately 3 million[31] to nearly 9 million.[32] Some scholars still assert that the death toll could be in the tens of millions.[33]

Based on these numbers, the kill count attributed to the Soviet Union was considerably less than that which has been attributed to Nazi Germany.

Also, considering the 20 million deaths per year attributed to capitalism, capitalism is far more deadly and murderous than both Nazism and Communism combined.
Many historians agree that Communism was responsible for more than 100 million deaths in the 20th century.

Mao Zedong committed genocide against harmless sparrows , and spoke about half of the Chinese population starving to death, like it was a good thing. He was an enemy of freedom, oppressed the people, his regime tortured and terrorized countless people, there was no freedom of speech, there was no freedom of religion, and countless historians declare that his kill count was much higher than Adolf hitler, and yet the Chinese sing praises to him, he is on Chinese money, and there are paintings of him and artwork in his honor, all over the place in china to this day!

It is true, we don't know how many people Stalin killed, but the Bolsheviks brutally persecuted religious people. And, the Bolsheviks were a minority, that siezed control, and had to kill an enormous amount of people to maintain that control.

I will believe the testimonies that I have seen first hand in documentaries, from people that were victimized in their gulags. I have seen first-hand accounts of Russian Orthodox priests, who were sent to communist " re-education camps", where they had to attend satanic black masses, blaspheme, and eat feces for Holy Communion!

I read a book called "with God in Russia", a priest spent 5 years in solitary confinement, starved, no interaction with others, just sitting in a cell by himself, and he did nothing wrong to be incarcerated. The five years in solitary confinement were not even close to half of the time he did in prison, interrogated, tortured, witnessing chronic agony , inhumanity, and brutality.

I saw a documentary where victims of communism, were talking about Soviets keeping people sleep deprived, to the point they become permanently brain damaged and insane, and torturing people until they are permanently paralyzed for life!

When the Soviets occupied East germany, They carried out what many historians say, was the greatest rape epidemic recorded in a single country, where prepubescent girls and old women were not spared!

The Soviet Union had no morals, caused many red revolutions, many civil wars, and raped and tortured countless people to death!

They used to drag Christians into the streets naked during winter, and pour water over them, until they froze to death. They nailed people to structures by their hands and feet , even in Russia, and I know the names of some of these victims, and have seen pictures of them.

Soviets would enjoy raping nuns who had consecrated their virginity to Jesus, get them to blaspheme, then shoot them before they could repent, to try and destroy their soul with their body!

It was the most evil Empire I know of! So when people claim Joseph Stalin was responsible for the deaths of over 40 million people, I wouldn't be surprised at all!

He was so brutal to Russians, but he invaded Poland when Hitler did, he occupied many devoutly Christian or Orthodox countries (Poland was a devoutly Catholic country, and he tried to destroy the faith of the people, and it got ugly and brutal)!

I have seen documentaries of priests who did more than ten years in communist gulags or prisons, in solitary confinement for more than ten years , only remaining sane by conversing with God alone, in the dark!

I have heard the testimonies of people permanently confined to wheelchairs from communist gulags, and their crime committed was they were a priest or Christian!

Communists cut off priests hands so they couldn't celebrate mass! Could you imagine living the rest of your life without hands? Some things are far worse than death, and communists were brilliant at making life worse than death for millions and millions of people!

But I do not know what the exact kill count of Joseph stalin, or wicked Communist governments actually is!

What I know is communism is pure evil, the most evil form of government, that has done the most damage, of any other form of government that has ever existed!

Some of the errors of Communism are alive and well here in America and around the world, in non-communist countries!

So when I have studied something as evil as communism, seen documentaries where the victims give their testimonies of what it was like in communist gulags, sometimes for decades, with their crime being their religious faith, and I've read about the brutality, the torture, all the people that committed suicide because Communists were torturing them and starving them so badly, I tend to believe the people who say that Joseph Stalin had a higher kill count than Adolf hitler!

But both of them were pure evil, and when I see how hard their lives were, I actually feel sorry for both of them, because hatred is toxic, painful suffering, but it doesn't excuse them for being two of the people who have done the most damage Earth has ever seen. I'm not saying they are the top two.

Pol Pot killed an estimated 30% of his population, killing people sometimes just for wearing glasses, because the glasses made them look more intellectual, made them look more educated, therefore he was suspicious that they were a threat to the state and knew too much to be controlled!

Mao Zedong , much evidence would suggest he was worse than Stalin!

I have studied communism thoroughly, and I know of nothing in history that has done close to that amount of damage!

Communism and radical Islam have done more damage than anything I know of , to terrorize, pulverize, ruin, brainwash, traumatize, and damage much of earth, and hundreds of millions of lives!
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Communists must have been more reasonable than Putin, who is an authoritarian.


The political relationship is vastly different than the relationship between cultures. Even back during the cold war the sporting relationship between the Eastern Blok nations and the West was pretty good, often hanging out with each other if possible. The 1980 boycott of the Russian Olympic Games pissed off a lot of American athletes. Today we are seeing bans in sports to Russian athletes, from F1 to tennis, among other sports. In a way it is unfair, but the invasion is way beyond just political, it is war crimes. there are many prominent Russian artists and athletes who oppose Putin and his decision for war and war crimes.


But the relationship with our allies suffered, and NATO came close to being dissolved, as Putin wants. So not a good thing. France and Slovenia both rejected their authoritarian, pro-Putin candidates this past week. Authoritarianism is dangerous.


And Putin invaded Ukraine when Ukraine posed no threat. The weapons from NATO were for defense, not attack. So this all falls on Putin's poor judgment.
I would say Ukraine seemed hostile to Putin after the Ukrainian government killed thousands of Russians in the Ukraine, before Putin ever invaded, and therefore we were giving weapons to a government notorious for being hostile to Russians.

But that doesn't justify Putin's invasion!

I like your post though! :thumbsup:
 
Last edited:

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Many historians agree that Communism was responsible for more than 100 million deaths in the 20th century.

The fact is, nobody really knows, but as noted in the article I linked, those figures seem greatly exaggerated. If someone stubbed their toe in the Soviet Union, they would count that as a "victim of communism."

Again, no one is saying they were innocent or that atrocities did not happen.

Mao Zedong committed genocide against harmless sparrows , and spoke about half of the Chinese population starving to death, like it was a good thing. He was an enemy of freedom, oppressed the people, his regime tortured and terrorized countless people, there was no freedom of speech, there was no freedom of religion, and countless historians declare that his kill count was much higher than Adolf hitler, and yet the Chinese sing praises to him, he is on Chinese money, and there are paintings of him and artwork in his honor, all over the place in china to this day!

Mao committed genocide against sparrows? I've never heard of that. Sometimes, animals are put down because there are too many of them, but I've never heard of the Humane Society being accused of committing genocide against dogs and cats - even though that's a large part of what they do.

In any case, if you studied what the Chinese government was like before Mao's rise to power, many of his actions might be put into better perspective. The Chinese government under Chiang Kai-Shek was certainly no bastion of freedom, and worse still, they couldn't even defend the country from foreign invaders and exploiters. The Japanese were running roughshod all over them.

It is true, we don't know how many people Stalin killed, but the Bolsheviks brutally persecuted religious people. And, the Bolsheviks were a minority, that siezed control, and had to kill an enormous amount of people to maintain that control.

I will believe the testimonies that I have seen first hand in documentaries, from people that were victimized in their gulags. I have seen first-hand accounts of Russian Orthodox priests, who were sent to communist " re-education camps", where they had to attend satanic black masses, blaspheme, and eat feces for Holy Communion!

I can't speak to the testimonies you're referring to without seeing them.

As for the Bolsheviks, they won the Revolution and Civil War, so they clearly had enough support for that. What's more is that, from the Russians' point of view, they were fighting for Mother Russia, while the Tsarist Whites were backed by foreign governments who were trying to exploit and dominate Russia. Surely you wouldn't deny a sovereign people the right to defend their own homeland from foreign aggressors, saboteurs, and terrorists?

I read a book called "with God in Russia", a priest spent 5 years in solitary confinement, starved, no interaction with others, just sitting in a cell by himself, and he did nothing wrong to be incarcerated. The five years in solitary confinement were not even close to half of the time he did in prison, interrogated, tortured, witnessing chronic agony , inhumanity, and brutality.

I hadn't heard of this book, so I did some checking: Walter Ciszek - Wikipedia

Your statement that "he did nothing wrong to be incarcerated" doesn't appear to be entirely accurate based on this account:

In 1938, Ciszek was sent to the Jesuit mission in Albertyn in eastern Poland.[2] With the outbreak of World War II in 1939, the Soviet Union occupied eastern Poland and forced Ciszek to close his mission. Arriving in Lviv, he realized that it would be easy for a priest to enter the Soviet Union amid the streams of exiles going East. After securing the permission of Metropolitan Andrei Sheptytsky, he crossed the border in 1940 under the assumed identity of Władymyr Łypynski. With two of his fellow Jesuits, he traveled 2,400 kilometres (1,500 mi) by train to the logging town of Chusovoy, in the Ural Mountains. For one year, he worked as an unskilled logger while discreetly performing religious ministry at the same time.

So, he ostensibly entered the Soviet Union under an assumed name and under false pretenses. That doesn't sound like "nothing wrong" to me. That would be just as illegal in the U.S. or any other country.

I saw a documentary where victims of communism, were talking about Soviets keeping people sleep deprived, to the point they become permanently brain damaged and insane, and torturing people until they are permanently paralyzed for life!

When the Soviets occupied East germany, They carried out what many historians say, was the greatest rape epidemic recorded in a single country, where prepubescent girls and old women were not spared!

The Soviet Union had no morals, caused many red revolutions, many civil wars, and raped and tortured countless people to death!

They used to drag Christians into the streets naked during winter, and pour water over them, until they froze to death. They nailed people to structures by their hands and feet , even in Russia, and I know the names of some of these victims, and have seen pictures of them.

Soviets would enjoy raping nuns who had consecrated their virginity to Jesus, get them to blaspheme, then shoot them before they could repent, to try and destroy their soul with their body!

I don't know that any of these things are true. Some of these anecdotes seem far too bizarre to be believed. They did have a law and constitution which guaranteed the equal rights of all citizens. Of course, as what often happens in our own system, some police officers, judges, etc. might violate the Constitution and civil rights of citizens. If we're going to say our own police deserve the benefit of the doubt and that it's "just a few bad apples," then we should be willing to give equal consideration to other governments as well.

It was the most evil Empire I know of! So when people claim Joseph Stalin was responsible for the deaths of over 40 million people, I wouldn't be surprised at all!

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

"Evil" should be defined. If you define "evil" as any government where people were killed under its jurisdiction, then every government is evil. If you define killing 40 million as "evil," while killing only 4 or 5 million as "not evil" or "less evil," then we might have to go back to square one.

He was so brutal to Russians, but he invaded Poland when Hitler did, he occupied many devoutly Christian or Orthodox countries (Poland was a devoutly Catholic country, and he tried to destroy the faith of the people, and it got ugly and brutal)!

He invaded Poland because Hitler invaded Poland. It wasn't just some coincidence, and the reason he did that was because Britain and France folded up at Munich. He didn't think Britain or France was strong enough to oppose Hitler, so he had to think about the position of his own country first and foremost. Stalin's choice was to either stand by and let Hitler invade, in which case the Nazis would be right on his border, or he could make a pact with Hitler and keep the Nazis 200 miles further away from his border.

I have seen documentaries of priests who did more than ten years in communist gulags or prisons, in solitary confinement for more than ten years , only remaining sane by conversing with God alone, in the dark!

I have heard the testimonies of people permanently confined to wheelchairs from communist gulags, and their crime committed was they were a priest or Christian!

Communists cut off priests hands so they couldn't celebrate mass! Could you imagine living the rest of your life without hands? Some things are far worse than death, and communists were brilliant at making life worse than death for millions and millions of people!

But I do not know what the exact kill count of Joseph stalin, or wicked Communist governments actually is!

What I know is communism is pure evil, the most evil form of government, that has done the most damage, of any other form of government that has ever existed!

This is simply not true. Throughout history, capitalist regimes have killed far more than anything one can attribute to communism. I proved this in another thread: The answer is a communist party

Capitalists have killed many times more people than can be attributed to communism, even if we accept the wildly exaggerated figures of Western propagandists.

If you wish to still maintain that communism is evil based on the fact that "some people died under communist regimes," then so be it. I won't argue with that, but when you make comparisons and say it's "the most evil" or "done the most damage" more than "any other form of government that has ever existed," then this claim has to be addressed.

There are far worse governments which have existed than communism. Worse still, the crimes committed by capitalist regimes were motivated purely by greed and malice, whereas communist regimes were merely defending themselves from an intractable capitalist enemy which has already proven how far they're willing to go.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
That feeling you get when Communism fell in Russia, and the Soviet Union fell roughly thirty years ago, and we are closer to nuclear war with the Russians now, than we were when they were Communist?

What would it take to have positive relationships between America and Russia?? Will there ever be such a thing?

I guess relationship between the two nations was improving under Trump, but that was such a brief marriage now wasn't it, it doesn't really count!

(That feeling you also get when Russia is at war with NATO, because obviously NATO has been giving Ukraine lots of weapons before the war started, which is one of the reasons Russia gave for invading in the first place.:rolleyes::oops:)

Putin has chosen a path of self-destruction. Unless he changes course, what can the US or NATO or anyone else in the world do to help him? All that can be done to try and convince him not to take down all of Russia with him.

Putin has repeatedly threatened to use nuclear weapons in order to compel other nations, through sheer terror, to do nothing while he kills millions of Ukrainians. If Putin actually causes a nuclear war, Russia is not going to survive.

Russia has been fighting Ukraine since the 2014 annexation of Crimea. Supplying weapons to Ukraine is nothing new because Russia has been fighting Ukraine for 8 years already.

The Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2022 escalated the conflict to World War because Putin signaled the intention to kill millions of Ukrainians for territorial conquest. Volunteers from all over the world have travelled to Ukraine to fight against Russia and Russia has conscripted mercenaries from all over the world to fight against Ukraine. All of the major world powers are actively involved in some form of military, economic, diplomatic, and/or cyber warfare.

Every indication is that this war will continue until something breaks. We can't stop Putin from destroying himself and taking Russia with him no matter how nice we try to be. We can let him know that his actions lead to ruin and despair and that it is up to him to veer from the path of self-annihilation.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I would say Ukraine seemed hostile to Putin after the Ukrainian government killed thousands of Russians in the Ukraine, before Putin ever invaded, and therefore we were giving weapons to a government notorious for being hostile to Russians.
Are you referring to the pro-Russian uprising in the Donbas that started in 2014? The Donbas area is Ukraine. The separatists have been supplied and funded by Russia, There is evidence of Russian troops fighting ij this area before the Russian invasion. Is this what you are referring to, how the Ukraine military was trying to put down an uprising and some Russians were killed in the process?
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
The fact is, nobody really knows, but as noted in the article I linked, those figures seem greatly exaggerated. If someone stubbed their toe in the Soviet Union, they would count that as a "victim of communism."

Again, no one is saying they were innocent or that atrocities did not happen.



Mao committed genocide against sparrows? I've never heard of that. Sometimes, animals are put down because there are too many of them, but I've never heard of the Humane Society being accused of committing genocide against dogs and cats - even though that's a large part of what they do.

In any case, if you studied what the Chinese government was like before Mao's rise to power, many of his actions might be put into better perspective. The Chinese government under Chiang Kai-Shek was certainly no bastion of freedom, and worse still, they couldn't even defend the country from foreign invaders and exploiters. The Japanese were running roughshod all over them.



I can't speak to the testimonies you're referring to without seeing them.

As for the Bolsheviks, they won the Revolution and Civil War, so they clearly had enough support for that. What's more is that, from the Russians' point of view, they were fighting for Mother Russia, while the Tsarist Whites were backed by foreign governments who were trying to exploit and dominate Russia. Surely you wouldn't deny a sovereign people the right to defend their own homeland from foreign aggressors, saboteurs, and terrorists?



I hadn't heard of this book, so I did some checking: Walter Ciszek - Wikipedia

Your statement that "he did nothing wrong to be incarcerated" doesn't appear to be entirely accurate based on this account:

In 1938, Ciszek was sent to the Jesuit mission in Albertyn in eastern Poland.[2] With the outbreak of World War II in 1939, the Soviet Union occupied eastern Poland and forced Ciszek to close his mission. Arriving in Lviv, he realized that it would be easy for a priest to enter the Soviet Union amid the streams of exiles going East. After securing the permission of Metropolitan Andrei Sheptytsky, he crossed the border in 1940 under the assumed identity of Władymyr Łypynski. With two of his fellow Jesuits, he traveled 2,400 kilometres (1,500 mi) by train to the logging town of Chusovoy, in the Ural Mountains. For one year, he worked as an unskilled logger while discreetly performing religious ministry at the same time.

So, he ostensibly entered the Soviet Union under an assumed name and under false pretenses. That doesn't sound like "nothing wrong" to me. That would be just as illegal in the U.S. or any other country.



I don't know that any of these things are true. Some of these anecdotes seem far too bizarre to be believed. They did have a law and constitution which guaranteed the equal rights of all citizens. Of course, as what often happens in our own system, some police officers, judges, etc. might violate the Constitution and civil rights of citizens. If we're going to say our own police deserve the benefit of the doubt and that it's "just a few bad apples," then we should be willing to give equal consideration to other governments as well.



Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

"Evil" should be defined. If you define "evil" as any government where people were killed under its jurisdiction, then every government is evil. If you define killing 40 million as "evil," while killing only 4 or 5 million as "not evil" or "less evil," then we might have to go back to square one.



He invaded Poland because Hitler invaded Poland. It wasn't just some coincidence, and the reason he did that was because Britain and France folded up at Munich. He didn't think Britain or France was strong enough to oppose Hitler, so he had to think about the position of his own country first and foremost. Stalin's choice was to either stand by and let Hitler invade, in which case the Nazis would be right on his border, or he could make a pact with Hitler and keep the Nazis 200 miles further away from his border.



This is simply not true. Throughout history, capitalist regimes have killed far more than anything one can attribute to communism. I proved this in another thread: The answer is a communist party

Capitalists have killed many times more people than can be attributed to communism, even if we accept the wildly exaggerated figures of Western propagandists.

If you wish to still maintain that communism is evil based on the fact that "some people died under communist regimes," then so be it. I won't argue with that, but when you make comparisons and say it's "the most evil" or "done the most damage" more than "any other form of government that has ever existed," then this claim has to be addressed.

There are far worse governments which have existed than communism. Worse still, the crimes committed by capitalist regimes were motivated purely by greed and malice, whereas communist regimes were merely defending themselves from an intractable capitalist enemy which has already proven how far they're willing to go.
"Also known as “Smash Sparrow”, this campaign launched in the year 1958 by Mao Zedong is the worst ecological disaster known to mankind. Mao felt that sparrows ate too much grain and China could do without such pests. Thus, he decreed that all sparrows be killed. "
The real reason why China started consuming every other wild animal. It has something to do with sparrows and Mao.

It's one thing for humane societies to comfortably euthanize stray pets that don't have homes and are suffering in a pound. It's something else to order the killing of every harmless sparrow enjoying life in the wild, and the consequences of that! I also saw some of the way they followed his orders to kill sparrows, was to keep the sparrow flying around scared until it dies, from exhaustion or cannot fly anymore, and can be killed, because it is too exhausted and frightened to escape. I saw the instructions people were given for their massive sparrow exterminations.

That is nothing like what is done at humane societies.

But okay, if genocide against what he thought was a pest, was his worst crime, I wouldn't have much to complain about. What about him speaking positively about half the Chinese population dying of starvation, or at least half the population dying, after a comment about starvation,

or all political power coming from the barrel of a gun:
Quotation-Mao-Zedong-When-there-is-not-enough-to-eat-people-starve-to-92-70-97.jpg
images.jpg


To be continued....see next post.....
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Such comments only come from a monster and someone without a conscience. For the Chinese to keep his image on their money today, chant hymns in praise of him, treat him like a God, keep paintings or artwork of him all over the place, is simply sick!

"Mass killings under communist regimes occurred during the 20th century through a variety of means, including executions, famine, and deaths through forced labour, deportation, and imprisonment. Some of these events have been classified as genocides or crimes against humanity. These killings have been the subject of study by authors and academics...

In 1994, Rummel's controversial book Death by Government included about 110 million people, foreign and domestic, killed by communist democide from 1900 to 1987.[59] This total excluded deaths from the Great Chinese Famine of 1958–1961 due to Rummel's then belief that "although Mao's policies were responsible for the famine, he was mislead about it, and finally when he found out, he stopped it and changed his policies."[60][61] Rummel would later revise his estimate from 110 million to about 148 million
Mass killings under communist regimes - Wikipedia

I will accept correction about the Priest , Father Walter Cizek. If he was in the country illegally, then he was technically guilty of a crime. However, solitary confinement is torture. Should he have spent five years tortured in solitary confinement, and a total of 23 years incarcerated for entering the country illegally?? of course not!

But atrocities of Communists are ridiculous!

"Acting through the Santebal, the Khmer Rouge arrested, tortured and eventually executed anyone who was suspected of belonging to several categories of supposed enemies:[50]

  • People with connections to former Cambodian governments, either those of the Khmer Republic or the Sangkum, to the Khmer Republic military, or to foreign governments.
  • Professionals and intellectuals, including almost everyone with an education and people who understood a foreign language. Many artists, including musicians, writers, and filmmakers were executed including Ros Serey Sothea, Pan Ron and Sinn Sisamouth.
  • Ethnic Vietnamese, ethnic Chinese, ethnic Thai and other minorities in the Eastern Highlands, Cambodian Christians (most of whom were Catholic), Muslims and senior Buddhist monks. The Roman Catholic cathedral of Phnom Penh was razed. The Khmer Rouge forced Muslims to eat pork, which they regard as forbidden (ḥarām). Many of those who refused were killed. Christian clergy and Muslim imams were executed.
  • "Economic saboteurs" as many former urban dwellers were deemed guilty of sabotage because of their lack of agricultural ability.
  • Party cadres who had fallen under political suspicion: the regime tortured and executed thousands of party members during its purges.[
Khmer Rouge - Wikipedia

And if you study enough, you will discover that people were killed just for wearing glasses , because they appeared too intellectual.

Communism in theory, distribution of wealth , sounds great. I believe the wealthy should help out the poor. But not forced by the barrel of the gun.

Also, some people are wealthy because they work a lot more hard than the poor, they are more responsible, and they have gone through extremely costly expensive grad school! In a communist country, people can lose as much motive , passion, reason, and reward for working harder, being more responsible, or being more educated.

Many of those people will still pursue those dreams under a communist government of course, but they will lose some incentive for it is all I'm saying, because I have heard testimonies from communist countries, where doctors aren't making much more money than people with no education, working as janitors or something, and a little financial incentive to get ahead is always nice.

And also, I get the feel like a lot of theft goes on in communism. Some people make a lot more money because they have invested well, they are ingenious, they are more responsible, more hard working, more brilliant, and taking the wealth they earned, to give to people who work less hard, are less responsible, do less that is worthy of money, and reduce everyone to closer to the same financial status, or have the government own and confiscate everything, strikes me as theft!

Communism can work though , and I have seen it. I have been to monasteries and religious communities, where everyone takes vows of obedience to a superior, no one owns anything, everything belongs to the community, and when people get sick, others in the community take care of them, and everyone lives by the same rule of life, in the monastery, convent, or religious community. That is truly communism in many ways, and it works!

But it is also voluntary. Those monks and nuns want to live like that. It is way different when it is forced by the barrel of a gun, and a lot of mass-killings, arrests, and tortures are enforced by the state to accomplish it!

Also, humans are spiritual creatures, with 90% of the world believing in , having faith in God , Angels, or supernatural entities. There is a hunger and craving in the hearts of humankind for God , Spirituality, or religion of some sort that, has been incompatible with many communist regimes!

When Religion is so important to so many people, motivates them to do good deeds, helps many people have a better moral compass, to violently oppress it, seek to efface it from everyone, ban houses of public worship, and use fear, torture, and intimidation, to destroy people's faith, that involves the persecution of a lot of people! It is trying to destroy something most people feel a need for to be happy, and have a good sound morality and spirituality!

Communist attempts at destroying people's faith, and banning houses of public worship, and public worship in general, as well as attempts to purge the nation of organized religion, were very severe, extreme, and victimized an enormous amount of people in the 20th century! I have MAJOR issues with that!

When I was an atheist, I was sociopathic, violent, a criminal, an addict! I started having compassion when I started praying the Rosary, started doing deeds of charity, believed God , Angels, and spirits could see what I did in secret, and would bless, reward, or consequence my bad deeds. It totally transformed me, the conviction that God and Spirits loved and cared about what I did, followed by signs and coincidences, to confirm various convictions!

I needed faith and prayer, to become a virtuous, compassionate, law abiding person. So, to see Communism trying to destroy people's faith , something so vital in my life, for me to be noble-minded, and have high moral standards, I have huge issues with that, and it is pure evil!

Communist regimes that don't do the bad things I mentioned in this post, I might not have much of a problem with, because I believe the rich should be helping the poor! ;)
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Are you referring to the pro-Russian uprising in the Donbas that started in 2014? The Donbas area is Ukraine. The separatists have been supplied and funded by Russia, There is evidence of Russian troops fighting ij this area before the Russian invasion. Is this what you are referring to, how the Ukraine military was trying to put down an uprising and some Russians were killed in the process?
Yes, but I was referring to all Russians living in Ukraine, killed by the Ukrainian government, including those in the uprising!
 
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