The Second Coming

[TransmutingSoul]

We do have a crystal ball, Baha'u'llah. Baha'is believe Jesus is the true Messiah to the Jews. Because of those "prophecies" in Matthew, just on those, I can see why the Jews would reject Christianity. The verses are taken out of context and the events might not have even happened.

I'll go even further, why use the name Jesus? Why not his Hebrew name? Which was, I guess, Yehoshua. His last name would be Bar Yosef? Whether you or I believe Jesus rose again physically and is coming back physically isn't the problem. Christians believe those things are true.

They wrote the gospels and epistles. They interpreted them. We can call them crazy. We can say they made things up and added them into the story. We can say that maybe they were meant to be symbolic. But, that's us. We don't believe the NT literal... or at all. We can say the modern liberal Christians don't believe those things were literal, but the early Christians did. Would I trust what people 2000 years ago said about the person they say was the Son of God? If they say he walked on water and rose from the dead, who would believe such a thing? A lot of Christians, that's who. We're telling them that they are wrong. And they are telling us we are doomed and going to hell. They NT says the "Lamb" is coming back. The name Jesus is mentioned a couple of times as returning, but does any of it make sense? No, it is not easy to figure out.

They have Jesus in their hearts. They can feel the power of the Holy Spirit. They can count on the whole Bible as being the inerrant Word of God. You have what you believe to be the truth about God in your heart. But you both believe totally different things about God. So, for me, what is the truth? People can believe many different things. Those things can contradict what other people believe. But, for those that believe, they can feel it. It changes their lives. But one or both of them are really true. But, they are believed as true. So what's real? Your beliefs are real to you. And you have Bible verses that "prove" you are right. Their beliefs are real to them, and they have verses that prove it to them. So what you gonna do? Each has to prove the other wrong.

Or, like you've probably have found with liberal Christians, they don't care about taking the Bible literal. Well then, that solves the problem. Should anybody in any religion take their beliefs so serious? Even Baha'is? You've been about the best at listening to the beliefs and opinions of people in the other religions. But, too many Baha'is sure seem to be pushing people away by being to stuck on their beliefs... that the Baha'i Faith is the truth, and therefore the people in the other religions are wrong. That ain't working.

I see your argument confirms the principal of progressive revelation.

It is easy to say in this age, that people of an age 2000 years ago, or even 300 years ago had any concept at all, as to what it was to think and act globally.

The issue is not being flexible in understanding a message aimed at our spiritual growth. Spiritual growth is required to find the balance in this material creation.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

I would hope, if the Baha'i Faith is the true and has the up to date message from God, that they would become the largest religion in the world. So when's this "entry by troops" supposed to happen? When is the great upheaval that causes the people of the world to turn to the Baha'is supposed to happen? You know I heard it all 50 years ago from Baha'is and their Pilgrim Notes that by the year 2000 we would have the "lessor peace" and that major cities would get obliterated. I assume that some of those Pilgrim Notes were based on things said by higher ups in the Baha'i Faith and maybe even Shoghi Effendi. What is the latest on when Baha'is expect things to change? But, you know, any upheaval still fits into the Christian beliefs too. They expect things to get worse and then Jesus comes back.

Time will tell whether or not the Baha’i Faith meets the high destiny it claims. As a young faith we’ve emerged from Persia during the mid-nineteenth century dominated by fanatical and conservative clergy who have done their utmost to eradicate our faith. That led to the execution of the Bab in 1850 by 750 of his countrymen by firing squad. After a misguided attempt on the life of the Shah in 1852, an estimated 20,000 Babis were brutally put to death and Bahá’u’lláh falsely accused and imprisoned.

After being found innocent Bahá’u’lláh was permanently exiled to Baghdad and through successive banishment, it was then the Ottoman Empire who determined to crush the Baha’i Faith for over 60 years knowing full well the claims made in regards Islamic end times.

Despite Bahá’u’lláh’s proclamation to the Kings and Rulers being ignored and being imprisoned in Akka, the faith soon spread abroad and took root in North America where is was nurtured by Abdu’l-Bahá and then Shoghi Effendi. With the Baha’i cause being championed by the North American believers soon the Baha’i Faith would be established in practically every country and the leadership transferred to a democratically elected international governing body, the Universal House of Justice.

Although the expansion of large numbers was not something that was specifically guaranteed to happen before the end of the twentieth century, it is an eventuality the Baha’is have been earnestly preparing since the mid 1990s.

In regards an upheaval we just don’t know when there’ll be the next international calamity, let alone one that will precipitate renewed interest in the Baha’i Faith. However over the twenty first century there’s certainly a much greater focus on promoting religious unity and tolerance as never before. You may be interested to read this letter from the Universal House of Justice written earlier this year.

18 January 2019 – To the Bahá’ís of the World | Bahá’í Reference Library

 

[CG Didymus]

I see your argument confirms the principal of progressive revelation.

It is easy to say in this age, that people of an age 2000 years ago, or even 300 years ago had any concept at all, as to what it was to think and act globally.

The issue is not being flexible in understanding a message aimed at our spiritual growth. Spiritual growth is required to find the balance in this material creation.

Regards Tony

I'm saying that to the Jews the prophecies in Matthew look contrived and you say I'm confirming "progressive revelation"? No, if they are made up prophecies that makes Matthew a false prophet. But Baha'is believe those prophecies are true? The ones that prophesied about Jesus and the family going to Egypt and about the boys being killed in Bethlehem and that he would be called a "Nazarene"? Have you seen the verses in context that are claimed to be prophecies?

 

[paarsurrey]

I'm saying that to the Jews the prophecies in Matthew look contrived and you say I'm confirming "progressive revelation"? No, if they are made up prophecies that makes Matthew a false prophet. But Baha'is believe those prophecies are true? The ones that prophesied about Jesus and the family going to Egypt and about the boys being killed in Bethlehem and that he would be called a "Nazarene"? Have you seen the verses in context that are claimed to be prophecies?

"The ones that prophesied about Jesus and the family going to Egypt and about the boys being killed in Bethlehem and that he would be called a "Nazarene"?"

It is a good question for the Paul's/Pagan/Christianity and the Bahaism people.

Regards

 

[Dawnofhope]

We do have a crystal ball, Baha'u'llah. Baha'is believe Jesus is the true Messiah to the Jews. Because of those "prophecies" in Matthew, just on those, I can see why the Jews would reject Christianity. The verses are taken out of context and the events might not have even happened.

I think if Herod had really slaughtered the innocents, Jewish historians such as Philo and Josephus probably would have mentioned it. They didn't. As you will appreciate it was common practice to embellish biographies with myth in Greco-Roman culture. This appears to be another example in addition to the resurrection and possibly some of the miracles too.

Massacre of the Innocents - Wikipedia

I'll go even further, why use the name Jesus? Why not his Hebrew name? Which was, I guess, Yehoshua. His last name would be Bar Yosef? Whether you or I believe Jesus rose again physically and is coming back physically isn't the problem. Christians believe those things are true.

Yes, the Hebrew word for Jesus is Yeshua. Jesus appears derived from Latin which in turn was based on a translation from the Kione Greek. its a good reminder we are dealing with ancient texts. Jesus spoke in Aramaic but the NT was written mostly in Kione Greek later was translated into Latin before being translated into English.

As we've discussed many Christians don't believe Christ was physically resurrected at all. It used to be considered a non-negotiable core Christian belief and still is for some churches. The times are definitely changing though. It won't be so much the Baha'is that are changing Christians minds, rather other Christians who are able to distinguish myth from fact changing the views of their fellow Christians.

They wrote the gospels and epistles. They interpreted them. We can call them crazy. We can say they made things up and added them into the story. We can say that maybe they were meant to be symbolic. But, that's us. We don't believe the NT literal... or at all. We can say the modern liberal Christians don't believe those things were literal, but the early Christians did. Would I trust what people 2000 years ago said about the person they say was the Son of God? If they say he walked on water and rose from the dead, who would believe such a thing? A lot of Christians, that's who. We're telling them that they are wrong. And they are telling us we are doomed and going to hell. They NT says the "Lamb" is coming back. The name Jesus is mentioned a couple of times as returning, but does any of it make sense? No, it is not easy to figure out.

There's no point in getting stressed about this. We've all come across Christian fundamentalists whose enthusiasm and passion for their personal theology prevent them from hearing others. Jesus addressed this very issue the following parable (Luke 8:4-15):

And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable:
A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Some people we can't change. The person we are most able to influence is ourselves.

Or, like you've probably have found with liberal Christians, they don't care about taking the Bible literal. Well then, that solves the problem. Should anybody in any religion take their beliefs so serious? Even Baha'is? You've been about the best at listening to the beliefs and opinions of people in the other religions. But, too many Baha'is sure seem to be pushing people away by being to stuck on their beliefs... that the Baha'i Faith is the truth, and therefore the people in the other religions are wrong. That ain't working.

The antidote to Christian fundamentalism is not Baha'i Fundamentalism. According to Shoghi Effendi there one thing and one thing only that can truly change the world:

Not by the force of numbers, not by the mere exposition of a set of new and noble principles, not by an organized campaign of teaching—no matter how worldwide and elaborate in its character—not even by the staunchness of our faith or the exaltation of our enthusiasm, can we ultimately hope to vindicate in the eyes of a critical and skeptical age the supreme claim of the Abha Revelation. One thing and only one thing will unfailingly and alone secure the undoubted triumph of this sacred Cause, namely, the extent to which our own inner life and private character mirror forth in their manifold aspects the splendor of those eternal principles proclaimed by Baha’u’llah. – Shoghi Effendi, Baha’i Administration, p. 66

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The antidote to Christian fundamentalism is not Baha'i Fundamentalism. According to Shoghi Effendi there one thing and one thing only that can truly change the world:

Not by the force of numbers, not by the mere exposition of a set of new and noble principles, not by an organized campaign of teaching—no matter how worldwide and elaborate in its character—not even by the staunchness of our faith or the exaltation of our enthusiasm, can we ultimately hope to vindicate in the eyes of a critical and skeptical age the supreme claim of the Abha Revelation. One thing and only one thing will unfailingly and alone secure the undoubted triumph of this sacred Cause, namely, the extent to which our own inner life and private character mirror forth in their manifold aspects the splendor of those eternal principles proclaimed by Baha’u’llah. – Shoghi Effendi, Baha’i Administration, p. 66

That is indeed the only way. If we do not change our own self to reflect what is offered in words, then all the best words are only based on hypocrisy and fail to penetrate.

That in turn tells me, that as Baha'i, quite a few of us are still yet to find true service.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

Time will tell whether or not the Baha’i Faith meets the high destiny it claims.........................................................
In regards an upheaval we just don’t know when there’ll be the next international calamity, let alone one that will precipitate renewed interest in the Baha’i Faith..................................

18 January 2019 – To the Bahá’ís of the World | Bahá’í Reference Library

Hi.......
I read the first half of the above message to Bahais.......

...and eventually reached this paragraph:-
However, though world unity is possible—nay, inevitable—it ultimately cannot be achieved without unreserved acceptance of the oneness of humankind, described by the Guardian as “the pivot round which all the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh revolve”.

And so, after 170 years without much growth, Bahai is telling its followers that this is why Mankind continues in contention and conflict?

Hmmm...... As an internal message to raise Bahai hopes I suppose it's harmless, but if that was shouted to the World, then the 'without unreserved acceptance' message could only be seen as a very big sell.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hi.......
I read the first half of the above message to Bahais.......

...and eventually reached this paragraph:-
However, though world unity is possible—nay, inevitable—it ultimately cannot be achieved without unreserved acceptance of the oneness of humankind, described by the Guardian as “the pivot round which all the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh revolve”.

And so, after 170 years without much growth, Bahai is telling its followers that this is why Mankind continues in contention and conflict?

Hmmm...... As an internal message to raise Bahai hopes I suppose it's harmless, but if that was shouted to the World, then the 'without unreserved acceptance' message could only be seen as a very big sell.

Part of a short farewell talk by Abdul'baha says;

"Ah me! I am waiting, waiting to hear the glad news that the believers are the embodiment of sincerity and loyally, that they are the incarnation of love and amity and the visible symbols of unity and concord! Will they not rejoice my heart? Will they not satisfy my cravings? Will they not comply with my request? Will they not fulfill my anticipations? Will they not answer my call?

I am waiting. I am patiently waiting!"

- ‘Abdu’l-Bha (‘Diary of Ahmad Sohrab’; Star of the West, vol. 5, no. 7, July 13, 1914)

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hi.......
I read the first half of the above message to Bahais.......

...and eventually reached this paragraph:-
However, though world unity is possible—nay, inevitable—it ultimately cannot be achieved without unreserved acceptance of the oneness of humankind, described by the Guardian as “the pivot round which all the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh revolve”.

And so, after 170 years without much growth, Bahai is telling its followers that this is why Mankind continues in contention and conflict?

Hmmm...... As an internal message to raise Bahai hopes I suppose it's harmless, but if that was shouted to the World, then the 'without unreserved acceptance' message could only be seen as a very big sell.

To understand a letter or message, its necessary to read the entire message and reflect to appreciate what its really saying. The progression of peace in the world is considered through the twentieth century as a result of the calamitous events (WWI, WWII and the Cold War) that ultimately brought unprecedented international cooperation, peace and prosperity for humanity. The principal of the oneness of humanity stands independent of any religion, the Baha’i Faith included.

 

[Limo]

The Second Coming (also known as the Second Advent or the Parousia) is both a Christian and Islamic belief in regards the Return of Jesus. Christians believe He ascended to heaven and shall return in the same manner as recorded in Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11.

Concepts around the Second Coming have evolved over the centuries based on Messianic Prophecies and eschatologies. Views about the nature of the Second Coming vary amongst different Christian denominations and Islamic schools of thought.

Second Coming - Wikipedia

Over the centuries a variety of claimants have come and gone including some extremely infamous characters in modern times. Over the last 200 years the Baha’i Faith and the Ahmadiyya movement are two religions whose founders claimed to be the Return of Christ and continue to maintain sizeable followings.

List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia

I have just three questions to consider for this thread.

1/ To what extent are beliefs about the Second Coming of Jesus beneficial or harmful?

2/ If the concept is to be taken seriously, what can we reliably determine will be the distinguishing features of Christ when or if He has come?

3/ Are there lessons to be learned from history about the acceptance or rejection of previous Messianic type figures including Christ Himself?

Prophet Mohamed told us about the return of Almasseh.
First we don't call second coming as Almasseh was born as normal human born from a mother without a father.
Almasseh was neither crucifixed nor fierd nor hurried nor resurrected.

Almasseh will return with the same personality that was there before he was raised to the sky.

We don't have any historical cases of people call themselves Almasseh. Why ?

The return of Almasseh is in a context of other signs of end of day.
So, it's not simple for anyone pertaining to be Almasseh tries to talk to Moslems about that

 

[CG Didymus]

I think if Herod had really slaughtered the innocents, Jewish historians such as Philo and Josephus probably would have mentioned it. They didn't. As you will appreciate it was common practice to embellish biographies with myth in Greco-Roman culture. This appears to be another example in addition to the resurrection and possibly some of the miracles too.

I'm good with the embellishment argument. But did they embellish some of the things that Jesus said? But, then again, if whoever wrote Matthew took verses out of context and made those verses somehow a prophecy, and then, maybe even made up events in the life of Jesus too... then what is trustworthy and real about the NT? That Satan tempted Adam and Eve and caused them to sin? Because of that sin all people since then were under a curse? And only through Jesus can people gain forgiveness? You as a Baha'i probably interpret any of the verses that would even suggest such a thing as symbolic. So was it the real truth or just embellished myth? Or, in other words, fictional story made up by the gospel writer?

And why that works for me is that 2000 years ago Christians could sell that story... that Jesus is God, rose from the dead, and is the only way to gain forgiveness. And when believed, people feel better. The whole group of believers feels better. And they all try and become better. Fake religions still work today. Based on nothing but a fabricated story and people feel the spirit. They feel the truth in their hearts. But the religion is totally made up.

The difficulty for Baha'is is how to make Christianity true and wrong at the same time. I feel the problem goes beyond what Christian man-made traditions have crept into the religion. I think the problem is with the NT itself. If it is not the literal, clear, absolute truth, then it's not worth anything.... except maybe as an example of ancient mythology about dying and rising gods, that will one day return to cleanse the world of evil. And, by making things like Satan and the resurrection symbolic, in a way, isn't that what Baha'is are making those stories into... Christian mythology?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm good with the embellishment argument. But did they embellish some of the things that Jesus said? But, then again, if whoever wrote Matthew took verses out of context and made those verses somehow a prophecy, and then, maybe even made up events in the life of Jesus too... then what is trustworthy and real about the NT? That Satan tempted Adam and Eve and caused them to sin? Because of that sin all people since then were under a curse? And only through Jesus can people gain forgiveness? You as a Baha'i probably interpret any of the verses that would even suggest such a thing as symbolic. So was it the real truth or just embellished myth? Or, in other words, fictional story made up by the gospel writer?

And why that works for me is that 2000 years ago Christians could sell that story... that Jesus is God, rose from the dead, and is the only way to gain forgiveness. And when believed, people feel better. The whole group of believers feels better. And they all try and become better. Fake religions still work today. Based on nothing but a fabricated story and people feel the spirit. They feel the truth in their hearts. But the religion is totally made up.

The difficulty for Baha'is is how to make Christianity true and wrong at the same time. I feel the problem goes beyond what Christian man-made traditions have crept into the religion. I think the problem is with the NT itself. If it is not the literal, clear, absolute truth, then it's not worth anything.... except maybe as an example of ancient mythology about dying and rising gods, that will one day return to cleanse the world of evil. And, by making things like Satan and the resurrection symbolic, in a way, isn't that what Baha'is are making those stories into... Christian mythology?

Baha’is don’t necessarily believe the Gospels contain the exact words Jesus spoke, instead through the Gospel God conveyed everything He wished to teach through Jesus. Furthermore the Gospels themselves are protected by God. It would be contrary to God’s Grace and Mercy to have sent Jesus, not left a reliable record of His Teachings and leave them deprived of God’s Guidance until Muhammad’s dispensation. So there’s a great deal of latitude and flexibility for interpretation.

My experience with some Christians is they can be very black and white. The Bible is God’s literal unerring Word and there’s little flexibility. I think we could go to the opposite extreme and say its all mythology and unreliable. Baha’is don’t believe that. What Abdu’l-Bahá does is take the Christian mythology and reinterprets and redefines the core Teachings.

I enjoy your questions C G and talking with you. I heard the story recently of one of the members of the Westboro Baptist church and granddaughter of the founder leave her fundamentalist church and wrote a book called ‘Unfollow’.

Granddaughter Of Westboro Baptist Church Founder Chronicles Leaving In 'Unfollow'

I wonder if you have heard of Megan Phelps-Roper or might even know her?

 

[Muffled]

Christ said I am not of this world... Looking for the other one among "many dwellings"

I believe you will find no evidence of spiritual enlightenment in the passages about His second coming. What He said is true but He also said we are in this world.

 

[Muffled]

Do we have a deadline? If not, that would entail that Christianity will exist forever. Just waiting there, forever.

Ciao

- viole

I believe it won't be when the moon is in the seventh house and Venus aligns with Mars or even the age of Aquarius. Things happen in the fullness of time as it says of the birth of Jesus.

 

[leov]

I believe you will find no evidence of spiritual enlightenment in the passages about His second coming. What He said is true but He also said we are in this world.

He said that He was not if this world, we must became the same .

 

[Muffled]

The Mahdi And Jesus Christ may save the world, they may not. It matters the circumstances.

They are obviously saved up to a mercy for the whole world, but it maybe they are rejected, and few believers will be saved while most of the world destroyed.

Actually, the darker result is becoming more and more probable and has been on that trajectory with increasing likelihood for a long time

I believe there aren't any atheists in foxholes. Knowing that the world will end tends to motivate people.

 

[Muffled]

I didn’t realise there was any historical evidence Christ was entombed let alone the discovery of a child instead of Christ.

The Bible is evidence that the body of Jesus was placed in a tomb. There is no evidence of a child in or around the tomb.

 

[Muffled]

As Adrian has responded, I will only add that the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdul'Baha and Shoghi Effendi have all informed us that the Bible has been preserved as the Word of God and contains guidance for us all.

It has been said that it is not a word for word accurate portrayal, but all that is needed for our spiritual guidance is contained therein.

Regards Tony

I can't imagine how they would know whether it was word for word or not.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I can't imagine how they would know whether it was word for word or not.

From Baha'i perspective, Baha'u'llah is the Word. The same Holy Spirit, which is 'Christ' and who gave us the Bible and all the past Revallations. He knew what was the Message Christ gave from God, because He was again that Message, given in this age as the Glory of God, the Father.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

I can't imagine how they would know whether it was word for word or not.

It's easy to say it was, though. Anyone can do that.