The Self and the Afterlife

[Erebus]

While reading another thread one of the posters (I won't name names as some people don't appreciate it) brought up a point I've wondered about for quite some time.

Additionally when i do think about what happens at and after death, beyond the clear biological understanding, the issue of identity arises, and what 'i' would even mean in any eternal or other worldly existence beyond this one. The very question of whether 'I' have an afterlife is fundamentally dubious before we even begin.

A lot (if not all) of who we are is determined biologically. Brain damage, lobotomy, mental illness etc can cause dramatic personality changes so unless we have a "default self" we revert to after death it seems a fairly safe bet that we won't bear much resemblance to how we were physically.

With this in mind, where does the self come into the afterlife? Is what we call a soul actually an amalgamation of all past, future and alternate selves? Imagine every nanosecond of your existence brought into being at the same time including any past or future lives you might have, would that be "you" or would "you" simply cease to exist with only a concept to take your place?
That's the heavily Lovecraft inspired first scenario

Another, possibly easier to imagine and describe scenario is that we exist in a state free from biological influence. That means no emotion, no memory (arguably) no urges etc. Would we still be ourselves and would you want that afterlife over non-existence (assuming there is some difference between the two).

Finally there is the merging with the universe scenario. This crops up in various forms around the world, but essentially we "become one" with God/Universe/Source etc. Again where does that leave the "I"?

I've not covered every possible scenario, just putting a few out there for folks to play around with. Any thoughts, comments or alternative scenarios please post. Just try to stick to the topic of self in relation to the afterlife and avoid proselytizing

 

[thebigpicture]

While reading another thread one of the posters (I won't name names as some people don't appreciate it) brought up a point I've wondered about for quite some time.



A lot (if not all) of who we are is determined biologically. Brain damage, lobotomy, mental illness etc can cause dramatic personality changes so unless we have a "default self" we revert to after death it seems a fairly safe bet that we won't bear much resemblance to how we were physically.

With this in mind, where does the self come into the afterlife? Is what we call a soul actually an amalgamation of all past, future and alternate selves? Imagine every nanosecond of your existence brought into being at the same time including any past or future lives you might have, would that be "you" or would "you" simply cease to exist with only a concept to take your place?
That's the heavily Lovecraft inspired first scenario

Another, possibly easier to imagine and describe scenario is that we exist in a state free from biological influence. That means no emotion, no memory (arguably) no urges etc. Would we still be ourselves and would you want that afterlife over non-existence (assuming there is some difference between the two).

Finally there is the merging with the universe scenario. This crops up in various forms around the world, but essentially we "become one" with God/Universe/Source etc. Again where does that leave the "I"?

I've not covered every possible scenario, just putting a few out there for folks to play around with. Any thoughts, comments or alternative scenarios please post. Just try to stick to the topic of self in relation to the afterlife and avoid proselytizing

So many unanswered questions regarding life after death. It's such a mystery. I feel that when the Creator first created us (souls), He instilled in us certain traits; certain aspects including pure natural instincts. These aspects are interrupted, if you will, (though I feel that the natural instincts were interrupted through deception) when we are in our physical vehicles so that we are able to function as physical beings as intended. The soul aspect of us don't disappear completely. There is a part of our soul mentality that remains in tact while we are in physical form. Rather, it dims while we are in our physical bodies. When we leave our physical bodies we (souls) return to the form (aspects) in which we were created.

 

[Thief]

There are some things you can be sure of....so....I BELIEVE!

If you are not able to leave your body...
body goes in the box...box into the ground.
Eternal Darkness is physically real.

If you do stand up...as you surrender your last breath...
you will have to deal with 'whatever' is standing over you.

They will have the advantage....
they will know the territory, the language, and the scheme of things.

You came into this world naked....you're leaving the same way.

Dead men don't speak or hear...they don't write or read.
Communication would then be direct.

They will be able to see how you think and feel...your mind and heart.

Judgment belongs to Them.
They will allow you to follow, or leave you where you fell.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

There are some things you can be sure of....so....I BELIEVE!

If you are not able to leave your body...
body goes in the box...box into the ground.
Eternal Darkness is physically real.

There would be no eternal darkness because you would have no perception of "darkness" or pinkness or whiteness or any other color. Just as when you are unconscious during a general aesthetic one minute the anaesthesiologist puts you under then you wake up and aware of no interval of time in-between.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Whilst I believe our soul is the life force of God, and that on death it returns to him.
I do not think a sense of "I " exists beyond our death.
Lack of a sense of time in both unconsciousness and death is to be expected. God Does not exist in time or space.

 

[839311]

A lot (if not all) of who we are is determined biologically. Brain damage, lobotomy, mental illness etc can cause dramatic personality changes so unless we have a "default self" we revert to after death it seems a fairly safe bet that we won't bear much resemblance to how we were physically.

With this in mind, where does the self come into the afterlife? Is what we call a soul actually an amalgamation of all past, future and alternate selves? Imagine every nanosecond of your existence brought into being at the same time including any past or future lives you might have, would that be "you" or would "you" simply cease to exist with only a concept to take your place?
That's the heavily Lovecraft inspired first scenario

Id say its like different versions of ourselves, some better and some worse, some better in some ways and others better in other ways. Even in our own lives we experience change as we go from infancy to childhood to adolescence to adulthood to being old.

Another, possibly easier to imagine and describe scenario is that we exist in a state free from biological influence. That means no emotion, no memory (arguably) no urges etc. Would we still be ourselves and would you want that afterlife over non-existence (assuming there is some difference between the two).

That Id have to experience before Id give an opinion on it. Or, perhaps I already have, but since memories might not have been formed, I wouldn't remember.

Finally there is the merging with the universe scenario. This crops up in various forms around the world, but essentially we "become one" with God/Universe/Source etc. Again where does that leave the "I"?

Reminds me of the Changling planet where they all live in that sea of theirs. Yes, I like star trek!

It could be like that, where we retain our individuality. Or it could be more like the borg, where its more like a collective. Thats right! 2 star trek references in the same post! :yes:

 

[Sacred_Heart]

We become like Christ as we are perfected in him. We come into union with the Holy Spirit. In this unity we rise to eternal life. Free of the corruption of the flesh, free of sin and free of the prince of this world. We rise to incorruptibility with Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Our former selves pass away.

 

[Thief]

There would be no eternal darkness because you would have no perception of "darkness" or pinkness or whiteness or any other color. Just as when you are unconscious during a general aesthetic one minute the anaesthesiologist puts you under then you wake up and aware of no interval of time in-between.

Seen a recent documentary on this very topic.....

One such physician is not convinced....'it's gone' when we die.
True, the sense of time is removed....in surgery.
But the awareness returns...that's the point.

You're still in there.

Does death destroy your spirit?...most believers say,'nay'.
Remain in your body after your last breath?...maybe so.

You're not really in control now...you just think you are.
You say as you please, do as you please.

But 'you' did not put 'you'...in that body.
You can't get out by your own willfulness.

If you can't get out when you are in control....
What makes you think you will when you're dead?

So...there's probably a judgment call to be made.

 

[blackout]

We are never exactly the same "I" from one moment to the next.
As ever changing Beings, it is our Memories that hold the Self together--
that give it continuity.

Without my memories, "I" lose my entire Self I'dentity.

 

[BruceDLimber]

I do not think a sense of "I " exists beyond our death.

The Baha'i scriptures state otherwise, and indeed promise not only that you will continue to exist as an individual, but that you will recognize and be with loved ones in the Next Life.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The Baha'i scriptures state otherwise, and indeed promise not only that you will continue to exist as an individual, but that you will recognize and be with loved ones in the Next Life.

Peace,

Bruce

A nice thought perhaps, and something that people want to believe and hang on to.
However if we are identified at all, it will be with God.
Death if anything, is a graduation... upward, not sideways.

 

[Twilight Hue]

There would be no eternal darkness because you would have no perception of "darkness" or pinkness or whiteness or any other color. Just as when you are unconscious during a general aesthetic one minute the anaesthesiologist puts you under then you wake up and aware of no interval of time in-between.

I would say this would be one the most direct experiences a person can undertake to understand the actual nature of what we identify as the self or "I", as well as UltraViolet's excellant point in that this notion of "I" happens to change continiously from every moment to the next. The fact that people cant remember or recall most various instances of when they were a child is testament to the fluidity pertaining to our sense of self, of which commonly is being taken as something steadfast and static unaware of the subtle changes occuring moment by moment.

 

[Orias]

Well from what I can offer Shyanekh, the self is like many describe a matter of "I" and how I chose to interpret the matter.

To me, what I am is a mass of ancient matter that choses to try and unlock something that I believe is within us. Other people are the same, but they consist of different processes that involve achievement and the way in which such things are done.

Whether other people chose to do such a thing I could care less for, it is only my concern when it impedes negatively upon my existence. Though I have learned that there is always a positive to an apparent negative, these things exist in contradiction yet support their own existences by contending.

I will not sit and be told who is boss, because I am the part of the One that choses to seek what is, not only in terms of the biological, but the spiritual and the dysfunctional.


"If you can understand the me, then I can understand the you", heh good old fashion Metalica right there.

If evil can understand good, then evil can chose to do one of two things.

If good can understand evil, then good can chose to do one of two things.

How these things are observed and how they function is determined by the core of their existence, which from apparent observation...must originate from somewhere.

What I see from existence I observe from life, and what I see from death I see in existence. Living things die, but existence exists regardless of occupation. If I do not exist, then neither does anything else, but if I do not exist then I never could have existed.

"Afterlife", is merely an affixation towards life, but what it is really is something that cannot be experienced.

Others believe in "afterlife", I believe in returning home.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I enjoy seeing all the imaginative energy people put into attempting to alleviate their fear and anxiety about not existing.

 

[Orias]

I enjoy seeing all the imaginative energy people put into attempting to alleviate their fear and anxiety about not existing.

Yea I know, they should just realize that we exist forever.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Yea I know, they should just realize that we exist forever.

See? Very creative!

 

[Orias]

See? Very creative!

Yea I know! Not existing is quite the mind bender itself!

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Yea I know! Not existing is quite the mind bender itself!

Exactly. Most people have a hard time wrapping their mind around it and accepting it.

 

[Orias]

Exactly. Most people have a hard time wrapping their mind around it and accepting it.

I guess its all subject to momentary apprehension then isn't it?

 

[Erebus]

We are never exactly the same "I" from one moment to the next.
As ever changing Beings, it is our Memories that hold the Self together--
that give it continuity.

Without my memories, "I" lose my entire Self I'dentity.

Agreed.
Out of interest do you consider this to be positive or negative? On the one hand you lose your Self, on the other you become something new.

I enjoy seeing all the imaginative energy people put into attempting to alleviate their fear and anxiety about not existing.

Are you convinced that's what happens after death? If so do you find comfort in your conviction? Do you percieve the total and eternal loss of self (nonexistence) a good thing, a bad thing, better or worse than an afterlife or reincarnation etc?

Do you consider our imaginative energy to be wasted when used on the topic of death?