The Self and the Afterlife

[Kilgore Trout]

Are you convinced that's what happens after death? If so do you find comfort in your conviction? Do you percieve the total and eternal loss of self (nonexistence) a good thing, a bad thing, better or worse than an afterlife or reincarnation etc?

I'm not convinced of anything. However, with a complete lack of any substantial evidence that any part of what makes us "us" continues to exist once we die, there's no valid rational reason to think there is some type of afterlife, let alone come up with some type of specific scenario of what it is. As it is, I'm fine with not existing at some point.

Do you consider our imaginative energy to be wasted when used on the topic of death?

No, I enjoy seeing it. It's interesting and fascinating.

 

[Orias]

Do you consider our imaginative energy to be wasted when used on the topic of death?

No he just thinks he is more imanginative.

 

[Erebus]

I'm not convinced of anything. However, with a complete lack of any substantial evidence that any part of what makes us "us" continues to exist once we die, there's no valid rational reason to think there is some type of afterlife, let alone come up with some type of specific scenario of what it is. As it is, I'm fine with not existing at some point.



No, I enjoy seeing it. It's interesting and fascinating.

Funnily enough I very much agree (you see, you do come up with good points. All you need is a little tlc to bring you out of that sarcastic outer shell ). Where we perhaps separate is that I still enjoy thinking through the possible scenarios. I guess if Dante is anything to go off I'd best get used to extreme temperature

Death is the great unknown, which makes it interesting, frightening and seductive. I find that I couldn't base my life on attaining any particular afterlife on the off chance it exists, but I do enjoy looking through the philosophies and myths regarding it.

In regards to the self and the afterlife, nonexistence is an odd duck. My religious beliefs are strongly focussed on self improvement and so I would prefer to exist after death. By the same token though if I cease to exist I'm hardly going to be upset about the situation.

 

[Erebus]

No he just thinks he is more imanginative.

Haha! Don't worry mate, it can take a bit of time to appreciate his humour

 

[Orias]

Haha! Don't worry mate, it can take a bit of time to appreciate his humour

Heh I got it dude, I just don't want him to know that I know that he knows that he is a contradiction.

I like things that kill me though too so its all good (heh sarcasim is a bit difficult to apprehend over the intereriornet) :biglaugh:

 

[Erebus]

heh sarcasim is a bit difficult to apprehend over the intereriornet) :biglaugh:

Tell me about it, text messaging too. I'd have no friends if it wasn't for the existence of smilies...

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Heh I got it dude, I just don't want him to know that I know that he knows that he is a contradiction.

Don't worry, your secret is safely hidden in your imagination.

 

[Noaidi]

Let's assume there is an afterlife: what is the point of it? Some say it is to become one with their deity, but what is there to achieve beyond that? Surely what defines me (and everyone else) in the present is my wants, desires, fears etc, but if they were removed and I was at one with a god, who (or what) would I be then?

 

[Erebus]

Let's assume there is an afterlife: what is the point of it? Some say it is to become one with their deity, but what is there to achieve beyond that? Surely what defines me (and everyone else) in the present is my wants, desires, fears etc, but if they were removed and I was at one with a god, who (or what) would I be then?

Precisely. In my opinion "union with God" is equivalent to becoming a cog in a machine or a cell in a body. Desirable for some perhaps, but not really for me.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

I enjoy seeing all the imaginative energy people put into attempting to alleviate their fear and anxiety about not existing.

I used to get anxious as a kid about adults reminiscing about old stuff before I was born like the War and I hated history because it was all about times I did not exist. So in a sense I was more anxious about the prelife than the afterlife.

 

[BruceDLimber]

f we are identified at all [in the Next Life], it will be with God.

We'll be spiritually near Him, yes, but of course not in any sense identical to Him!

Death if anything, is a graduation... upward, not sideways.

Glad we agree!

Bruce

 

[Penumbra]

While reading another thread one of the posters (I won't name names as some people don't appreciate it) brought up a point I've wondered about for quite some time.

A lot (if not all) of who we are is determined biologically. Brain damage, lobotomy, mental illness etc can cause dramatic personality changes so unless we have a "default self" we revert to after death it seems a fairly safe bet that we won't bear much resemblance to how we were physically.

With this in mind, where does the self come into the afterlife? Is what we call a soul actually an amalgamation of all past, future and alternate selves? Imagine every nanosecond of your existence brought into being at the same time including any past or future lives you might have, would that be "you" or would "you" simply cease to exist with only a concept to take your place?
That's the heavily Lovecraft inspired first scenario

Another, possibly easier to imagine and describe scenario is that we exist in a state free from biological influence. That means no emotion, no memory (arguably) no urges etc. Would we still be ourselves and would you want that afterlife over non-existence (assuming there is some difference between the two).

Generally, this sort of reasoning is why I don't find an afterlife to be a particularly meaningful concept. Memories can be erased, personality can be biological altered; identity doesn't seem particularly robust or permanent. Caring what happens to myself in some hypothetical afterlife is like caring what happens to totally different conscious entity. It's nice to care about them, but I don't view it as a continuation of myself.

One can imagine a thought experiment:
Suppose that, upon sleeping, you are slain, and a biological clone with implanted memories was placed in your bed. This clone wakes up, supposing nothing happened, and continues on. It believes it was always who it currently is.

At any given moment, I don't think we can prove that we are the same person that we were yesterday. I don't think we can prove consciousness is continuous. We can imagine it to be so, and it's safe to do so, so that we plan for the future and make smart choices, but I think the conclusion is that it's important to focus on present experience. All that currently exists in one's state of mind is the present; the future and past are ideas only.

Plus, philosophical stuff aside, I haven't seen evidence that the mind or consciousness exist independently of a functioning body.

Finally there is the merging with the universe scenario. This crops up in various forms around the world, but essentially we "become one" with God/Universe/Source etc. Again where does that leave the "I"?

I've not covered every possible scenario, just putting a few out there for folks to play around with. Any thoughts, comments or alternative scenarios please post. Just try to stick to the topic of self in relation to the afterlife and avoid proselytizing

The "merging with the universe scenario" is one that I do not believe, but it seems among the least unreasonable and most elegant of guesswork afterlives to me. I don't view anything substantial about it, but I don't dismiss it as readily as I dismiss the concept of being transported to some other physical body on a physical earth.

It seems unfalsifiable, but also completely unevidenced. And usually poorly articulated.

As for where the "I" would be left in such a scenario, I don't think it would be left anywhere. It would just be a continuation of one type of experience to another.

 

[Orias]

Don't worry, your secret is safely hidden in your imagination.

Yes, we all play our roles.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Yes, we all play our roles.

I'm sure it's very comforting to think we're all characters in your play.

 

[Orias]

I'm sure it's very comforting to think we're all characters in your play.

Who said it is my play?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Who said it is my play?

I don't know. Check the script and see how my character is supposed to respond.

 

[Orias]

I don't know. Check the script and see how my character is supposed to respond.

*Giggle*

Heh, it says I'm supposed to ask you.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

While reading another thread one of the posters (I won't name names as some people don't appreciate it) brought up a point I've wondered about for quite some time.



A lot (if not all) of who we are is determined biologically. Brain damage, lobotomy, mental illness etc can cause dramatic personality changes so unless we have a "default self" we revert to after death it seems a fairly safe bet that we won't bear much resemblance to how we were physically.

With this in mind, where does the self come into the afterlife? Is what we call a soul actually an amalgamation of all past, future and alternate selves? Imagine every nanosecond of your existence brought into being at the same time including any past or future lives you might have, would that be "you" or would "you" simply cease to exist with only a concept to take your place?
That's the heavily Lovecraft inspired first scenario

Another, possibly easier to imagine and describe scenario is that we exist in a state free from biological influence. That means no emotion, no memory (arguably) no urges etc. Would we still be ourselves and would you want that afterlife over non-existence (assuming there is some difference between the two).

Finally there is the merging with the universe scenario. This crops up in various forms around the world, but essentially we "become one" with God/Universe/Source etc. Again where does that leave the "I"?

I've not covered every possible scenario, just putting a few out there for folks to play around with. Any thoughts, comments or alternative scenarios please post. Just try to stick to the topic of self in relation to the afterlife and avoid proselytizing

I think before we ask the question of the afterlife we must consider the prelife and what could have happened if history was only very slightly different such as your parents never meeting where would that leave you? Would that have thwarted your near infinitesimal to ever exist and you are doomed to never exist?

However I am of the view that if my parents had never met then that would be only one of a googolplexian ways of not existing as opposed to existing and there is no possibility of being ever being aware of one of them. It is only under rare conditions which lead to my existence I can have any sense of self and that googolplexian of times more ways of not existing would be subjectively ignored. So if for instance my parents had never met I would just simply switch to some other expression of existence by being a child of some other parents and not necessarily homo sapiens.

Just the same as we are totallly oblivious to the 13.7 billion years of time from the event of the Big Bang to the moment of our birth. It is subjectively as though that vast chasm of time had never existed because even that figure of 13.7 billion years could have never have been known without the endeavours of advanced scientific observation and research because there was no intuitive means of knowing how old the universe actually is because for centuries people assumed it was only a few thousand years old.

As for the "after"life that would be precisely identical to the "pre" life I that "after" life would be just as oblivious to this life with the total obliteration of its memories as we would be of this life as in the prelife if our parents never met. So I am of the view that in the instance of our death all our memories would be totally obliterated - to such an extent it would be subjectively identical to never been born at all in the first place and that being the case another parallel existence would come to the fore more or less on similar natural principals to this existence because with all your memories of this life entirely annihilated there would be nothing in the universe to remind you that you have already spent your one existence. You just exist out of anthropic necessity because you are eternally unaware of the googolplexian way of not existing.