The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[mickiel]

Well, I'm a Christian, and my Church's teachings on Heaven/Hell and Salvation/Damnation are quite a bit different than most. According to our theology, pretty much everyone who has ever lived will ultimately end up in Heaven.

Well that certainly is good news to me. I thank God for churchs and Christians who do as such. In John 12:32 again Jesus himself speaking what I consider an unstoppable prophecy;"If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me." Now this is Jesus expressed desire, to get all of the sheep who are lost, not just those who believe and submit to him. Certain christians are teaching that sinful humanity must " Accept Christ", or they will perish. But God is not willing, NOR HAS HE WILLED, for ANY to perish, but ALL come to repentance.

Listen, the complette Salvation of ALL of humanity is the VERY REASON God sent Jesus to this planet! This is not my opinion, or me picking or creating imaginary scriptures. Notice 1John 4:14;" And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has SENT the Son " TO BE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD!" Not just the righteous, but sinners are also included in this mission. Certain christians just selfishly don't believe this. And most of them have been taught this through their church traditions.

Peace.

 

[Dunemeister]

Well that certainly is good news to me. I thank God for churchs and Christians who do as such. In John 12:32 again Jesus himself speaking what I consider an unstoppable prophecy;"If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me." Now this is Jesus expressed desire, to get all of the sheep who are lost, not just those who believe and submit to him. Certain christians are teaching that sinful humanity must " Accept Christ", or they will perish. But God is not willing, NOR HAS HE WILLED, for ANY to perish, but ALL come to repentance.

With respect to the passage from John, you'll notice that the AV has the word "men" in italics, which means it doesn't appear in the original text. Jesus said that he will draw "all" unto him. All what? It can't be men because it's certain that not all men are drawn to Jesus. History bears this out. So either Jesus was mistaken or there was something else he was drawing unto himself. What might that have been?

You're also conveniently ignoring all those passages where Jesus says that there will be sheep, which will enjoy a resurrected life of bliss, and goats, which can look forward to a resurrected life of rejection and anguish (deep darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth, etc.).

Third, you're assuming that if God desires all to come to him, then everyone will ultimately do so. Not only is this not borne out by history, it reduces our free will to nothing. I'm free not to accept Christ's invitation. I'm not free to choose the consequences of my decision.

Listen, the complette Salvation of ALL of humanity is the VERY REASON God sent Jesus to this planet! This is not my opinion, or me picking or creating imaginary scriptures. Notice 1John 4:14;" And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has SENT the Son " TO BE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD!" Not just the righteous, but sinners are also included in this mission. Certain christians just selfishly don't believe this. And most of them have been taught this through their church traditions.

It's the OFFER of salvation, the PROVISION of salvation that's the whole point of Jesus coming. As 1 Jn 4:14 says, Jesus is the Savior. It doesn't follow that all are going to be saved. Of course, sinners are included because we're all sinners. But it doesn't follow that everyone will benefit from Christ's saving work. You're simply ignoring those texts which speak other than what you believe.

One final point. You're getting away from your original topic, hell, and substituting another, universal vs. specific salvation. You're free to do so, of course, but please recognize that they are logically distinct.

 

[mickiel]

The Concept of an eternal punishing hell is really sick at its root. And the real sickness is that it reflects on Gods integrity and insults Gods Characther. Yet even more, it reveals how humans will embrace sick beliefs into their hearts. The whole concept of eternal fire is mentioned in scripture, but I view it as inconclusive and not enough information is given to draw perminent conclusion. There is far too much that we simply do not know. There is too much contridiction.

Listen to Malachis view in example, in 4:1;" For behold, the day is comming, burning like a furnance, and all the arrogant and every evil doer will be " Chaff", and the day is comming that will set them ablaze, says the Lord of Host, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi sees nothing eternal in the fire, nor does he see eternal punishing. He claims that evil doers will be " Chaff", which is worthless light weight matter, or Ashes. He claims further that nothing will be left of them, a far cry from eternal punishing.

In fact, there is not ONE place in the Old testement that anyone is treathened will continual hell fire punishment as the consequence of unrepentant sin, nowhere! In further fact God himself is called a " Consumming Fire" on occasion, not a continual punishING fire. In 2 Pet. 2:9 the term " PunishMENT is used, not PunishING! I think its no doubt that God has created something that is called the Lake of fire, I do see him doing that. I do see humans being put into this Lake, but I cannot accept that they will be kept there for all of eternity. That just does not fit Gods mind and heart. No, no, something is deadly wrong with the belief in eternal punishING.

Look further into 2Pet. 3:9;" The Lord IS NOT slack concerning HIS promise, but is patient toward us, not wishing ( Or Willing) for ANY to perish, but for ALL to come to repentance. You cannot shortchange Gods DESIRES, or his WILL, or Wishes. It is impossible for God not to get his desires. I don't care what human does not believe this, but Gods desires are NOT based on human belief. God has NOT preordained anyone to perish. Oh but he has preordained that ALL will be with him in paradise. And I want to go into that. Peace.

 

[Katzpur]

The Concept of an eternal punishing hell is really sick at its root. And the real sickness is that it reflects on Gods integrity and insults Gods Characther. Yet even more, it reveals how humans will embrace sick beliefs into their hearts.

Don't you think this stems from a deep-seated insecurity? A lot of people simply cannot be satisfied with themselves based on their own good qualities. They're not rich unless they are richer than the next guy. They can only see themselves as intelligent if they can compare themselves to someone who is stupid. By the same logic, they want to go to Heaven, but they can't be satisfied as long as a whole lot more people end up in Hell. It's like they're not content with what they have unless that sets them apart from those who don't.

 

[Dunemeister]

The Concept of an eternal punishing hell is really sick at its root. And the real sickness is that it reflects on Gods integrity and insults Gods Characther. Yet even more, it reveals how humans will embrace sick beliefs into their hearts. The whole concept of eternal fire is mentioned in scripture, but I view it as inconclusive and not enough information is given to draw perminent conclusion. There is far too much that we simply do not know. There is too much contridiction.

Well, perhaps the eschatological vision is a bit sketchy, so fair comment I suppose. As far as contradiction goes, well let's see about that.

Listen to Malachis view in example, in 4:1;" For behold, the day is comming, burning like a furnance, and all the arrogant and every evil doer will be " Chaff", and the day is comming that will set them ablaze, says the Lord of Host, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi sees nothing eternal in the fire, nor does he see eternal punishing. He claims that evil doers will be " Chaff", which is worthless light weight matter, or Ashes. He claims further that nothing will be left of them, a far cry from eternal punishing.

The prophet doesn't have hell in view here. He has the destruction of a very flesh-and-blood enemy in mind. He's using cosmic, end-of-the-world language to illustrate the severity and significance of the event. You and I might accomplish the same thing by interpreting the end of communism (for example) as an earth-shattering event. Did the earth literally shatter? Of course not. But the world is no longer the same. I think Malachi had something like that in mind. I could cite the whole passage to make my point, but I'll leave that for you as homework.

In fact, there is not ONE place in the Old testement that anyone is treathened will continual hell fire punishment as the consequence of unrepentant sin, nowhere!

True enough.

In further fact God himself is called a " Consumming Fire" on occasion, not a continual punishING fire. In 2 Pet. 2:9 the term " PunishMENT is used, not PunishING! I think its no doubt that God has created something that is called the Lake of fire, I do see him doing that. I do see humans being put into this Lake, but I cannot accept that they will be kept there for all of eternity. That just does not fit Gods mind and heart. No, no, something is deadly wrong with the belief in eternal punishING.

Whether it fits God's mind and heart is not for you or I to judge, now is it? If scripture unambiguously claims that hell IS in God's mind and heart, then we're just going to have to live with the fact. If scripture isn't so clear about it, perhaps there's room for disagreement. And I personally see no harm in holding out for the salvation of those whose fate is the lake of fire described in Revelation.

Look further into 2Pet. 3:9;" The Lord IS NOT slack concerning HIS promise, but is patient toward us, not wishing ( Or Willing) for ANY to perish, but for ALL to come to repentance. You cannot shortchange Gods DESIRES, or his WILL, or Wishes. It is impossible for God not to get his desires. I don't care what human does not believe this, but Gods desires are NOT based on human belief. God has NOT preordained anyone to perish. Oh but he has preordained that ALL will be with him in paradise. And I want to go into that. Peace.

Who's shortchanging them? (What does that mean?) Why is it so impossible for God to desire X yet not-X happens, especially where the desire concerns the free decisions of moral agents? God may desire that I eat chocolate, but I eat vanilla because at the time, I prefer it. God isn't going to rape my will in order to force me to eat chocolate. However, the consequences of eating vanilla are plain enough, and so I'm culpable for having done so.

You say that God has preordained all to go to heaven, but I've repeatedly demonstrated how you've misread the scriptures, at least partly. I'm not saying you don't have to believe in universal salvation, but if you do, one must wonder why anyone would bother with Jesus. Theoretically, I can believe and live any way I want. I may suffer a temporary (even if lengthy) punishment later, but eventually it'll be over and I'll enjoy the bliss that's preordained. If JESUS believed this, one wonders why he was so eager for his followers to proclaim his gospel. Why not just live and let live (as all other religions of the day were doing)?

 

[Katzpur]

You say that God has preordained all to go to heaven, but I've repeatedly demonstrated how you've misread the scriptures, at least partly.

I don't believe that anyone is "predestined" to do anything, believe anything or go anywhere. But in my opinion, your opinion is wrong.

I'm not saying you don't have to believe in universal salvation, but if you do, one must wonder why anyone would bother with Jesus. Theoretically, I can believe and live any way I want. I may suffer a temporary (even if lengthy) punishment later, but eventually it'll be over and I'll enjoy the bliss that's preordained. If JESUS believed this, one wonders why he was so eager for his followers to proclaim his gospel. Why not just live and let live (as all other religions of the day were doing)?

That would all make sense if we were judged solely on the basis of a relatively brief span of perhaps 70 or 80 years of mortality, which, of course, I don't believe to be the case. First of all, I don't believe the final curtain falls at death or that the spirit goes immediately to either Heaven or a permanant Hell. There have been billions who never heard of Jesus Christ. How are they to be judged? If it's going to be solely based on the kind of lives they lived, "one must wonder why anyone would both with Jesus" -- even those who grew up in a Christian society. There have been billions more who may have heard of Jesus Christ but whose understanding of His gospel was incomplete and even presented from a false or misleading perspective.

I believe that the processes of learning, growing, repenting and decision-making will go on beyond the grave, during the period of time between death and the resurrection. The spirit world existed during Christ's time. Why would it have since ceased to exist when there are so many people who lived after Christ who are in the same position as those He preached to in the spirit prison during the three days His body lay in the tomb.

Do you believe in both a First and Second Resurrection? The doctrine is biblical, you know. So is the doctrine that not everyone who goes to Heaven will receive exactly the same reward. Those who accept Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice on their behalf, whether it be in this life or during the time prior to their resurrections will not have to pay the price for their own sins. Those who don't will have to be punished for their own sins for the duration of Christ's Millennial Reign. Once they have suffered for their decisions both to be sinful and to reject the means by which their sins might have been remitted, do you really think it would be very loving of God to continue to punish them forever? I don't believe they'll have the same rewards as the righteous, who will rise in the First Resurrection, but I don't believe they'll be condemned forever either. That kind of God doesn't sound particularly "Christian" to me.

 

[mickiel]

Don't you think this stems from a deep-seated insecurity? A lot of people simply cannot be satisfied with themselves based on their own good qualities. They're not rich unless they are richer than the next guy. They can only see themselves as intelligent if they can compare themselves to someone who is stupid. By the same logic, they want to go to Heaven, but they can't be satisfied as long as a whole lot more people end up in Hell. It's like they're not content with what they have unless that sets them apart from those who don't.

Well yes, I agree, it is a deep seated insecurity, sprinkled with a lot of self righteousness. People are not willing to trust Salvation as a God responsibility, but they over rate this free will issue and think that they are mostly responsible for their salvation, so they take the Kingdom by the force of their own will, thus that gives them most of the glory. So christianity has " Morphed into a self improvement program", and its not what Christ has already done, its what THEY did! They made the choice based on THEIR righteousness and zeal. Not knowing about Gods righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they really have not submitted themselves to the right correct order of where Salvation comes from, Rom.10:1-3. So they compare themselves amoungst themselves and brag on how THEY came to Jesus. It was their decision, their righteousness and their repentance. Then conversely they use the drama of others who have not " Done what they did", to further lift themselves up, as if their righteousness leaves God no choice but to save them.

In Romans 5:8 God demonstrated his Love toward " Us", that while we were YET SINNERS, still unbelievers, still rejecting him, Jesus STILL died for all of us. But certain christians still look to isolate the " US" into meaning just them, further stepping on sinners and unbelievers in order to lift themselves up. This same dynamic actually created the womens liberation movement. Men, in their selfishness, stepped on women in order to lift themselves up. Women grew tired of this and stood against it.

God himself has grown tired of believers who do this to sinners. He said the first will be last, and the last shall be first. I believe this means self righteous christians will be pushed to the back, and those very people they condemn will be placed above them.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

Who's shortchanging them? (What does that mean?) Why is it so impossible for God to desire X yet not-X happens, especially where the desire concerns the free decisions of moral agents? God may desire that I eat chocolate, but I eat vanilla because at the time, I prefer it. God isn't going to rape my will in order to force me to eat chocolate. However, the consequences of eating vanilla are plain enough, and so I'm culpable for having done so. quote



Here is the perversion of christianity, teaching that God cannot get his desires. And blaming this most unusual belief on free will. Free will is the ability to make decisions that are not influenced by any outside force. For a christian to even believe that their decision to believe in God, was their own, is perversion. In 1 Corinth. 3:6, it is God who CAUSES growth, not human will. In 2 Corinth. 5:14, it is the Love of Christ that CONTROLS us, this kind of influence is NOT free will. In Philippians 1:29;" For For to you IT HAS BEEN GRANTED for Christ sake, not only TO BELIEVE in him, but to suffer for him." Belief in God and Christ is GRANTED by God, not inititated by human choice or free will. In John 6:44 no human can come to God unless God FIRST draws them. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the human will or choice. Free will belief is the Christian way of self pacification.





Quote
You say that God has preordained all to go to heaven, but I've repeatedly demonstrated how you've misread the scriptures, at least partly. ?

You have demonstrated how christians think they dominate all spiritual truth.

Peace.

 

[Dunemeister]

You have demonstrated how christians think they dominate all spiritual truth.

Peace.

How can you say "peace" after that? You say you're all about God's love but you seem incapable of expressing it. Perhaps that gives the lie to your doctrine anyway.

Peace indeed.

 

[mickiel]

How can you say "peace" after that? You say you're all about God's love but you seem incapable of expressing it. Perhaps that gives the lie to your doctrine anyway.

Peace indeed.

I have not said I was all about Gods Love , I wonder where you read that. I have said that I do not know God, but would like to. I am not christian, I am a sinner in need of God and have not progressed beyond that point. If you wish to assinate my characther, well I can understand why, such is the way of most christians. Call me a liar, or whatever, do as you please, such is your way of expression.

I still wish Peace to everyone I speak with.

Peace, even misunderstood Peace.

 

[Dunemeister]

I have not said I was all about Gods Love , I wonder where you read that. I have said that I do not know God, but would like to. I am not christian, I am a sinner in need of God and have not progressed beyond that point. If you wish to assinate my characther, well I can understand why, such is the way of most christians. Call me a liar, or whatever, do as you please, such is your way of expression.

I still wish Peace to everyone I speak with.

Peace, even misunderstood Peace.

It's not I who have assassinated anyone's character. I've tried to be civil but you have insulted me, and then you go on to wish me "peace." But suit yourself.

 

[mickiel]

It's not I who have assassinated anyone's character. I've tried to be civil but you have insulted me, and then you go on to wish me "peace." But suit yourself.

I have said nothing to insult your personage, as the rules of this board state, I have went after the beliefs of your religion. Christianity is the one religion that pedals this eternal hell doctrine, it is from your religion, that the teaching of eternal damnation has erupted and spiritually handicapped much of humanity that is curious about God. I attack such brutality as the influence that has crippled much of the believers in our history.

But if you think that I have done otherwise, then leave me be and suit yourself.

Peace.

 

[rnovack]

The fear of God is the beginning of all knowledge. He created us and when adam and eve disobeyed him in the Garden of Eden, we then needed salvation through Christ Jesus. Peace, Love, Punishment, Joy, Wrath, all these emotions are of God.

 

[mickiel]

The fear of God is the beginning of all knowledge. He created us and when adam and eve disobeyed him in the Garden of Eden, we then needed salvation through Christ Jesus. Peace, Love, Punishment, Joy, Wrath, all these emotions are of God.

Gods emotions are nothing like human emotions, to equate them is in gross error. Adfam and Eve were set up by God to do exactly what they did. Romans 5:18, " So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to ALL men." Christians can readily believe the first part of this verse, because they like to condemn all the humans that they can, but they cannot accept the latter part of same verse. That same ALL Men will be justified by Christ, a kind of incredible grace and mercy that Christians just don't have.

Thats why I am glad that the salvation of humanity is not based on christians, if it were, we all would be in trouble.

Peace.

 

[Tau]

I really am looking to understand God, but not this God that humans teach, but the real God of Love , Joy and Peace. Not this God of eternal hell punishing, but the God of Patience, forgiveness and Mercy. You know, the real God, not this insane lunatic that many are trying to pass God off as being. You know, this lunatic that will place humans in this eternal Pain amphlipier and punish them for billions upon trillions of untold time and on into infinity. I just can't imagine how out of control this hell fire belief has gotten. And how much these bloodthirsty christians who teach it have ruined Gods reputation.

The eternal punishing of anything, muchless a human, is a sick concept, yet many believers have swallowed it into their belief, hook, line and sinker. And THAT is evidence of just how much foolishness we will absorb.

Peace.

Hell is merely a Babylonian concept assimilated into the early judaic belief systems during the time they inhabited the lands of that ancient empire.
Its seems to me that the concept of hell and all the accompanying imagery of torture and suffering is simply a method of ensuring compliance to the will of 'God'.
Be good or else....its a grown up way of saying 'if you dont behave you wont get any candy/sweets' but obviously with nastier consequences than a lack of sweets.
But the psychology is the same, its all about control.

'Blessed is the mind too small for doubt'
That should be the rallying call of fundamental Christianity (and any other fundy faith)

Karma in my opinion is a better philosophy for living, 'what goes around comes around', because it is clearly testable.

A God that judges and tortures it's own creations for exercising the free will that they were supposedly given seems to contradict the notion of a rational God.
That God seems more like a petty sadist than a loving creator.

 

[Tau]

I have said nothing to insult your personage, as the rules of this board state, I have went after the beliefs of your religion. Christianity is the one religion that pedals this eternal hell doctrine, it is from your religion, that the teaching of eternal damnation has erupted and spiritually handicapped much of humanity that is curious about God. I attack such brutality as the influence that has crippled much of the believers in our history.

But if you think that I have done otherwise, then leave me be and suit yourself.

Peace.

Aye!

You stand fast mickiel, the doctrines of heaven and hell are simply wrong.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings, Mickiel!

Do take heart!

There are indeed other views (and other scriptures) out there, and the Baha'i scriptures in particular say that hell (spiritual separation from God) is not eternal, and that God, in His infinite Mercy and Love, eventually assists EVERYONE to draw spiritually near to Him (the definition of Heaven)!

Best regards,

Bruce

 

[tariqkhwaja]

A time will come in Hell when not a single man would be left in it. Its doors and windows will rattle to the blowing wind.

Kanzul Ummal, p. 270

The Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said the above. There is also a Hadith that details how the last man in hell will enter heaven.

 

[Quiddity]

You start by naming a thread:
The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering

Then you start your first post with:
I really am looking to understand God, but not this God that humans teach, but the real God of Love , Joy and Peace.

So what are you really here for?

In order to understand, it’s important to be honest about one’s own biases and presuppositions.

In case you are interested, I started a thread on this some time back:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/66701-concept-hell-western-religions.html

 

[blackout]

You start by naming a thread:
The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering

Then you start your first post with:
I really am looking to understand God, but not this God that humans teach, but the real God of Love , Joy and Peace.

So what are you really here for?

Perhaps mickiel does not find the concept of Eternal hell suffering
congruent with the ideas of Love, Joy and Peace?

I'm guessing he's (really) here to discuss that,
and other directly related issues.

A thread is more defined by the OP than "the title" most times anyway.
(and it is HIS thread after all)