The Situation in Egypt

[Bismillah]

You are arguing that there are irreconcilable differences between Muslims in the world. Aside from puritinical Wahhabis, who are an anomaly and inexplicably tied with political power in the KSA, the four maddhabs do not vary much. Could you explain what some of these differences are, as you see them.

 

[kai]

You are arguing that there are irreconcilable differences between Muslims in the world. Aside from puritinical Wahhabis, who are an anomaly and inexplicably tied with political power in the KSA, the four maddhabs do not vary much. Could you explain what some of these differences are, as you see them.

I think my point is that there are differences with people. Yes in theory the four maddhabs do not vary much. But the idea that so may various cultures can somehow exist as a whole under one political and religious authority is a bit of a dream. It hasn't come to fruition for hundreds of years and i dont think it can now either.

 

[Bismillah]

Well you have yet to point out any differences and have admitted the four maddhabs do not differentiate to any significant degree.

It hasn't come to fruition for hundreds of years because the message was abandoned not because the message failed.

 

[kai]

Well you have yet to point out any differences and have admitted the four maddhabs do not differentiate to any significant degree.

It hasn't come to fruition for hundreds of years because the message was abandoned not because the message failed.

Bismallah what difference does it make the the four maddhabs are similar if imams and shieks from here to Timbuktu issue fatwas on anything and everything on an almost daily business in support of whatever faction their aligned to.

And ok if the message was abandoned why was it abandoned? was it abandoned or just tailored to suit the cultural tendencies of whoever was in charge at the time?

 

[Bismillah]

Bismallah what difference does it make the the four maddhabs are similar if imams and shieks from here to Timbuktu issue fatwas on anything and everything on an almost daily business in support of whatever faction their aligned to.

Could you tell me how the fatwas between the four schools differs? How does one actions differ from the other?

The message was abandoned for political power, the Mu'awiya favored dynastic inherited rule to the religious system and there was an obvious falling out as the empire sought to expand itself but no longer defined itself under religious grounds.

It was the actions of a tyrant enforcing and warping the wills and political system of the time through the well documented use of force and murder.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Sure but I already noted that Shias would be the exception according to their beliefs. I am focusing more so on Sunnis.

You are arguing that there are irreconcilable differences between Muslims in the world. Aside from puritinical Wahhabis ...

So if we ignore the major divisions in Islam -- Wahhabis, Shias, and Sunnis -- then there are no major divisions. I suppose that is true ...

 

[Bismillah]

Major divisions in the world? You realize Wahhabism isn't even a school of thought....and given that Shism is restricted to Iran, Iraq, and parts of Pakistan with minority populations around the world they too are not included in the scope of the picture.

By definition they will not accept a Caliphate, thus they are not the focus of discussion.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Major divisions in the world? You realize Wahhabism isn't even a school of thought....and given that Shism is restricted to Iran, Iraq, and parts of Pakistan with minority populations around the world they too are not included in the scope of the picture.

Well I guess the divisions we see depend a great deal on the "scope of the picture" we choose to examine. If we consider Muslim secularists/liberals, Shias, Sunnis, Wahhabists, Salafis, and a bunch of others, then there's diversity. If we consider just traditional Sunnis, there's less diversity.

A Muslim woman wrote a piece in the student newspaper, she followed some obscure sect of Islam, I forget the name .... anyway, it was interesting to read her view.

 

[kai]

Could you tell me how the fatwas between the four schools differs? How does one actions differ from the other? Bismallah please dont insult what little intelligence i have left. you know exactly what i mean , for example any rule imposed by the Taliban is backed up by a scholar affiliated to them. the same with Alqueda. In fact isnt it the case that anyone trained in Islamic law can issue one?

The message was abandoned for political power, the Mu'awiya favored dynastic inherited rule to the religious system and there was an obvious falling out as the empire sought to expand itself but no longer defined itself under religious grounds. Exactly and that situation remains to this day.

It was the actions of a tyrant enforcing and warping the wills and political system of the time through the well documented use of force and murder.

Yes and now its Tyrants in the plural sense and governments.

 

[kai]

Well I guess the divisions we see depend a great deal on the "scope of the picture" we choose to examine. If we consider Muslim secularists/liberals, Shias, Sunnis, Wahhabists, Salafis, and a bunch of others, then there's diversity. If we consider just traditional Sunnis, there's less diversity.

A Muslim woman wrote a piece in the student newspaper, she followed some obscure sect of Islam, I forget the name .... anyway, it was interesting to read her view.

Indeed it looks like the "scope of the picture" is in the eye of the beholder.

So really a Caliphate is not all Muslims (are the 170 million Ahmadyya included) 120 million Shai are already out , what about Sufi ?

 

[Bismillah]

Kai I am not insulting anyone. I am seeking to understand the differences that you claim. So if you would cite the imposition of rules by the Taliban or the KSA could you please direct me to which scholar it comes from and how popular that idea is?

Exactly and that situation remains to this day.

In the currrent governments sure, but there are movements that are taking a stance against it. Kind of irrelevant to the discussion.

So please state some irreconcilable differences between the four schools of thought for me to consider.

 

[kai]

Kai I am not insulting anyone. I am seeking to understand the differences that you claim. So if you would cite the imposition of rules by the Taliban or the KSA could you please direct me to which scholar it comes from and how popular that idea is?

In the currrent governments sure, but there are movements that are taking a stance against it. Kind of irrelevant to the discussion. [/COLOR]

So please state some irreconcilable differences between the four schools of thought for me to consider

.

I feel you have created a straw man here ,are you trying to imply that all muslims the world over follow the four schools of thought? that there are no differences no sects? no denominations? that the Ummah is united? are you saying that the Taliban and the KSA for example follow the same four shools of thought as you without there own take on it ?


what difference do the four schools of thought make to my point that the Ummah is spilt along ethnic and cultural lines and that Pashtuns (for example) follow fatwas and interpretaions from Pashtun and allied scholars?


It makes no difference whatsoever whether the four schools of thought have little differences . Muslims have differences in interpretation of Quran,Hadith,and sunnah. independant of the madhhabs depending on where they live its called Ijtihad but you know that full well.

 

[Bismillah]

I see nonsense about supposed differences and yet I have seen no specific mentions to these differences.

And yes, almost every Muslim in the world, aside from silly apologists and other "revisionists" follow the four schools of thought, including the Wahhabis.

And mind you we are discussing irreconcilable differences.

 

[kai]

I see nonsense about supposed differences and yet I have seen no specific mentions to these differences.

And yes, almost every Muslim in the world, aside from silly apologists and other "revisionists" follow the four schools of thought, including the Wahhabis.

And mind you we are discussing irreconcilable differences.

what i see is someone in denial that the Ummah is splintered along geopolitical lines and are interpreting Islam into their own versions of sharia.

All Muslims in the world look to scholars to tell them what "Islam " is and means for them and is most probably based on one of the four schools of thought.


and mind you, you are discussing irreconcilable differences of the maddhabs, that was your straw man you set up.

i am discussing differences in Islamic government and Sharia on the ground, in real terms, right now, from KSA to Iran to Pakistan and all the other countries in between, and how you could possibly get all these people to come under one umbrella.

 

[Bismillah]

and mind you, you are discussing irreconcilable differences of the maddhabs, that was your straw man you set up.

That is not a straw man, that is a fact. The majority of Muslims in the world fall under these four schools.

i am discussing differences in Islamic government and Sharia on the ground, in real terms, right now, from KSA to Iran to Pakistan and all the other countries in between, and how you could possibly get all these people to come under one umbrella.

One, aside from Iran (coincidentally there is a movement to incorporate the main Shia school of thought among the four today) they all already fall under the same umbrella.

You have yet to produce any differences which would lend themselves irreconcilable.

 

[kai]

That is not a straw man, that is a fact. The majority of Muslims in the world fall under these four schools.

One, aside from Iran (coincidentally there is a movement to incorporate the main Shia school of thought among the four today) they all already fall under the same umbrella.

You have yet to produce any differences which would lend themselves irreconcilable.

Ok i rest my case lets just see how things go in the next 1400 years.

 

[Bismillah]

A case without facts is a meaningless assertion my friend and the troubles of the Muslim world are certainly not due to some irreconcilable "differences" between Muslims.

 

[Sahar]

I'd like to say that the majority of Muslims agree on most things of religion, they disagree on some details and it's a natural thing.

 

[Bismillah]

I'd like to say that the majority of Muslims agree on most things of religion, they disagree on some details and it's a natural thing.

Agreed and, Alhamdulillah, there is a clear cut way in compromising and reducing the plurality of opinion in the enforcement of religious practice.

 

[kai]

A case without facts is a meaningless assertion my friend and

the troubles of the Muslim world are certainly not due to some irreconcilable "differences" between Muslims.

Of course there not, there only troubles in that particular Muslims country, I don't think you get my point at all. I have been saying all along that Cultural and ethnic influences on Muslims will make it very difficult to institute a Caliphate for all Muslims.

You seem to be trying to steer the discussion toward Islamic principles of the 4 schools of thought. What does that have to do with it? If it was the case that all Muslims had the same interpretation there would be no disunity, no Muslim on Muslim violence you would all be living under a Caliphate right now, no problems in fact, things would all be hunky dory in the Muslim world, you would all be getting along swimmingly. People just arnt like that Bismallah, and the more people you have the more disunity you are likely to get.