The snake didn´t lie, God cheated

[Heathen Hammer]

Yes, I know of many! In fact all of humanity! Sounds like a statement of a mad man, but I will explain why.

Because it was not possible to create a living soul with God like qualities without the penalty of separation (termed death) mankind's death sentence was rescinded by God in Jesus.

It was not mankind's fault that we were created in that condition, due to God's creative process, of which He later, meaning at the coming of Jesus to the earth, rescinded.

And....because of God's offering to mankind, a body to sacrifice, humanity no longer is in death's grip but in the hands of almighty God's.

Thus granting mankind full obsolescence from sin (Rendering humanity perfect in Jesus).

Unfortunately, that bit of great news is not readily accepted by the whole.

For those that do recognize and accept God's offering of life everlasting for one's own soul, are blessed beyond measure yet while alive in the flesh.

To debunk the notion that if what I said above, would grant us privilege to sin all we want and still be saved, is wrapped up in half truths.

1. Yes, we have the choice to sin (Truth)
2. Yes, we can sin all we want and still be saved. (Self-Deceiving truth)
3.The other choice is to live in the renewal spirit of God in us and live as best as we can and eschew all forms of evil doings. In the process, completely absolved from sin; or in a state of perfection.

Here is the clincher: "What we sow...that shall we reap" is an all reality of which, regardless of belief in God or not, applies equally.

The bible also states, that those who know not to do evil (meaning their conscience bothers them) and still do evil are doubly troubled in spirit (Vexation of spirit) verse those who have no consciousnesses towards evil.

Thar my point of view of which allows me to accept all mankind, regardless of beliefs, as a brother or sister.

In that way, I can forgive as Jesus pointed out, love your enemies, for the enemies are God's to, if it were not so, then He would have never made such a statement.

Blessings, AJ

it would appear, alas, that you did not actually read what I posted

 

[look3467]

Have you ever known a single human who never sinned?>>>Heathen Hammer

I responded to your statement.

And I said yes! All of humanity at one point or another.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I responded to your statement.

And I said yes! All of humanity at one point or another.

A response is not the same as an answer, though.

You went right on to miss the point: man's nature forces him to sin. God forces us to have this nature; we do not choose it, and no, Adam and Eve choosing something for themselves, even though that whole rigamarole being a sin can certainly be debated, does not make our being inherently sinful, a choice of our own. Thus, we are not actually responsible.

 

[atanu]

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." ........

I think it is profound. 'Take also', IMO, is the key

Once the knowledge is imparted, man is on his own, responsible for own action.

 

[Desert Snake]

Please post the verse you have in mind.

Didn't the Serpent tell Eve in verse 4 That Eve would 'Not' die ?
Isn't that why Jesus refers to Satan as the father of the lie at John 8 v 44 ?
The word 'father' means life giver. So, Satan 'gave birth', so to speak, to the first lie.

I'm not sure how any of that negates Eve's choice, using her free will, to disobey and partake of the forbidden fruit.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Also technically it's the mother who 'gives birth'

 

[Desert Snake]

If Eve was punished for something she didn't do, then I don't get how people who believe the OT/Torah could justify Gods actions. Either Eve was guilty, or they believe in an unjust God.

 

[look3467]

You went right on to miss the point: man's nature forces him to sin. God forces us to have this nature; we do not choose it,>>>Heathen Hammer

I didn't miss the point because I agree with your statement above.

let me rewrite it this way: ..."man's nature forces him to sin" to read " man's nature was made subject to (Vanity) meaning, having a choice, is in line with Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

In other words, placed into a situation where mankind has a right to choose between two alternatives.

That right is what killed mankind. The hope is, (stated in that same verse, that by the same creator who subjected us to vanity also saves us from the power of its penalty, which is death.

Notice that in both cases, mankind has no control? Both cases are handled by God Himself.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Me Myself
And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." ........

I think it is profound. 'Take also', IMO, is the key

Once the knowledge is imparted, man is on his own, responsible for own action. >>>atanu

"become as one of us" denotes god like status by reason of knowing good and evil.

That makes a soul and individual independent from God, a separate entity of which can not co-exist as an independent but dependent on God, once that soul has been re-birthed.

That is why it says "Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Also, Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Yes, we responsible for our own actions but not for our salvation, for that is Gods work.

Our good works would not be sufficient of an offering to save us, that is why Jesus, as the Son of God, God's offering to mankind did.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

If Eve was punished for something she didn't do, then I don't get how people who believe the OT/Torah could justify Gods actions. Either Eve was guilty, or they believe in an unjust God.

Eve....is representative of the flesh, while Adam is of the spirit.
The marriage of the two is what became a living soul.

The flesh is weak, subject to the vanity of this world, but the spirit within is not, unless it is willed.

Notice that Eve was the one tempted, not Adam? Yet Adam is part of Eve therefore, He also is involved without participation.

Blessings, AJ

 

[atanu]

Eve....is representative of the flesh, while Adam is of the spirit.
The marriage of the two is what became a living soul.

The flesh is weak, subject to the vanity of this world, but the spirit within is not, unless it is willed.

Notice that Eve was the one tempted, not Adam? Yet Adam is part of Eve therefore, He also is involved without participation.

Blessings, AJ

Actually, we (or rather 'me') believe that the flesh is not capable of being tempted, being non-intelligent really.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I didn't miss the point because I agree with your statement above.

let me rewrite it this way: ..."man's nature forces him to sin" to read " man's nature was made subject to (Vanity) meaning, having a choice, is in line with Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

In other words, placed into a situation where mankind has a right to choose between two alternatives.

That right is what killed mankind. The hope is, (stated in that same verse, that by the same creator who subjected us to vanity also saves us from the power of its penalty, which is death.

It is possible you agree with me in some respect, but you do not grasp the implications.
Man having the 'right to choose' does not make him responsible all of a sudden; God is responsible, across the board.

 

[look3467]

Actually, we (or rather 'me') believe that the flesh is not capable of being tempted, being non-intelligent really.

If....you leave the flesh to itself, yes, the flesh is nothing of itself without the spirit.

Therefore, Adam is the breath of God into the clay mold making the clay (flesh) subject to the vanity of which this world is.

The preacher, as referenced, Said quote "Ecc 1:2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

So as the flesh is made up of this world, with the spirit, is made subject to it.

The spirit of Adam is not only our individual spirit, making us a living soul, but also the conscience giving us moral direction. Whether we listen or not, is our choice.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

Man having the 'right to choose' does not make him responsible all of a sudden; God is responsible, across the board.>>>Heathen Hammer

There are two distinct areas of responsibility, 1. God is responsible for the outcome of our soul and 2. we are ultimately responsible for our own actions.... as gods.

In 1 above, God created the condition which resulted in our separation and in 2. above, God gave us full responsibility for our actions, right or wrong.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Heathen Hammer]

2. we are ultimately responsible for our own actions.... as gods.

Not with the system as outlined, no, we aren't. I have already explained why

In 1 above, God created the condition which resulted in our separation and in 2. above, God gave us full responsibility for our actions, right or wrong.

Again, you cannot have full responsibility for something that is someone else's fault. We are forced to sin because of a nature we had nothing to do with.

 

[look3467]

Not with the system as outlined, no, we aren't. I have already explained why

Again, you cannot have full responsibility for something that is someone else's fault. We are forced to sin because of a nature we had nothing to do with.

There are two different kinds of "works".
1. God's works are those that Jesus did in order to attain salvation for us and 2. there are our works which only saves us grief and despair if we do the good works.

On number two, it doesn't matter whether one believes in God or not, it applies.

But number one, only God can perform.

The problem with many is that they are trying to combine both one and two and find themselves short and not attainable.

Blessings, AJ

 

[kjw47]

Not with the system as outlined, no, we aren't. I have already explained why

Again, you cannot have full responsibility for something that is someone else's fault. We are forced to sin because of a nature we had nothing to do with.

Yes we all sin--but there are sins listed in Gods word that are totally unaceptable, and if man cared enough to gain eternal life, they would listen to Gods son who taught--Man does not live by bread alone, but by every utterance of Gods. They would spend their time learning every utterance and applying them with their whole heart,soul,strength. Most choose to sin, they could choose not to sin as well. And those who live to do Gods will do just that as best they can.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I guess neither of you fellows read what I wrote. Ah well.

 

[kjw47]

I guess neither of you fellows read what I wrote. Ah well.

I did read your words--You blame God for what you choose to do.

 

[PolyHedral]

I did read your words--You blame God for what you choose to do.

He didn't choose to be him. How could he have avoided it?