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The "something can't come from nothing" argument

Sapiens

Polymathematician
I thought we were discussing the empirical nature of a claim. How did we get into the historical method? Regardless I have 4 plus contemporary cross references which is more than many of the most accepted historical claims. As far as I can tell that is not even a rule of the historical method but I have it either way.

Go to this link on the historical method:

You will not find any set rules about having to have 2 cross references. In fact I searched for cross (references) and I did not get one hit.

Where on earth do you get zero contemporary witnesses.

Mathew was contemporary.
Mark was contemporary.
John was contemporary.

Paul was contemporary and eyewitness to other events concerning Christ.
Luke may have been. Even some of the Greek extra biblical writers I supplied in abundance were contemporary. What are you talking about?
I am not a historian, but I have many friends who are. Two contemporaneous cross-references seems to be the agreed upon criterion.

It is generally believed that Matthew was written before A.D. 70 and as early as A.D. 50 - NOT CONTEMPORANEOUS.

Generally, Mark is said to be the earliest gospel with an authorship of between A.D. 55 to A.D. 70. - NOT CONTEMPORANEOUS.

John is the last of the gospels and appears to have been written in the 80's to 90's. Most scholars say it was written in the early 90's. - NOT CONTEMPORANEOUS.

Three strikes ... you're out!
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I am not a historian, but I have many friends who are. Two contemporaneous cross-references seems to be the agreed upon criterion.

It is generally believed that Matthew was written before A.D. 70 and as early as A.D. 50 - NOT CONTEMPORANEOUS.

Generally, Mark is said to be the earliest gospel with an authorship of between A.D. 55 to A.D. 70. - NOT CONTEMPORANEOUS.

John is the last of the gospels and appears to have been written in the 80's to 90's. Most scholars say it was written in the early 90's. - NOT CONTEMPORANEOUS.

Three strikes ... you're out!

Just as note.....the book of John is remarkably different than Mark, Matthew, and Luke.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Yup, but it does demonstrate how little the religionists often know about their own stuff. If I knew as little biology as they seem to know about the gospels, I'd never have graduated.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I cannot say I am fully on board with why yet but I hear constantly from philosophers of science that not only is the universes rationality best explained by God but out ability to do science is as well. Like I said I have not mastered the logical basis for this but it is so prevalent that I have accepted it. Let me draw a comparison. If you found a word like "eat at Joe's) on the dark side of the moon you would instantly think intelligence, everyone would and does. Symbiotic issues always have mind as their source, so when I see the longest word ever discovered in the DNA chain I think intelligence also. ...

Yes, and I had lived in the 15th century, I would have definetely seen God in the amazing design of a stick insect.

But now we have a good naturalistic explanation for all complexity and design-like features of life. So, we have at least one case of complexity arising naturally or, if you do not accept evolution, one case with a viable, alternative explanation at least.

Therefore, complexity and designed-looking entails design, is not a necessary conclusion.

If you want to use Einstein as a correlation between science and faith it would depend on what day you asked. he made some very emphatically statements in favor of faith quite often. I wrote his relevance to theology off after reading statements that completely contradicted each other. Besides he is a product of the abstract science revolution. Newton, Descartes, Bacon and those guys created modern science not Einstein. I can, but am not trying to show Christians are he best scientists, I am trying to show there exists no conflict between them.

Of course, there was no conflict. Although, probably, in biology you might have needed to relax a bit the idea of supernatural design if you wanted progress.

There are other things common during the era of Newton and Leibnitz. They were wearing funny whigs. That had no conflict either.


I was but only where my analogy applied. I do not remember in your case but it almost never fails that whatever way I use an analogy will be the only way that it is not applied. Analogies have limited relevance and are not equalities but they are treated as such in debates. I think my analogy accurate but there are many ways in which faith in the ESB and God are not similar. Let me change it to dark matter. I should have used that up front anyway. Can't detect dark matter by any method. You can only derive it by looking at reality and the lack of explanation for it within what we know about it.

If you change it to dark matter, then I sort of agree with you. I am myself skeptical of dark matter. It remind me a bit of the ether theory of the 19th century.


That is not what the bible says. Let me find the verse:

"Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

However you did not include the context. Normally the master has paid off he entire debt of the servant. He did so that he might recover it over time. Now given the servants debt is taken car of entirely, the bible counts the loss of the work that would have repaid the debt as punishment enough. IOW time served. The lost work of that labor and the money spent on him is taken as payment enough and no additional punishment is required unless they die. In that case no money can make up for even the loft life of a slave because only with God does life have infinite value. There are specific verse about this and I have provided them in the past but could not quickly find them again.

What? Suppose that a manager breaks some bones of one of his employees with a baseball bat. Is that objectively morally acceptable, since he will have to pay him during sick days, anyway?

Isn't that clear now why we hate the belief? It makes you justify things that in normal conditions you would never justify, hopefully.

You misunderstand. The moral truths are universal and objective, but how we interact with those truths and what we are expected to do concerning them depended on God's purpose and our ability. The same as the parents morals do not change butt the child's rules do.

Yes, but now you are begging the question. You seem to assume that objective morality exists and, therefore, there should be a giver or source of this morality to make sense of it. Introducing God's purpose as a possible variable that makes their application and observation sort of time and culture dependent, is equivalent to introducing the thesis in the premises.


I have no use for it in it's traditional form but when modified it is reasonable. My revisions states that when two unknowns exist then there is no loss to considering the most useful one at least possible. IOW until the jury is in give the evidence for the bible every chance you can without defying known truth. You can never get true faith by default but you can leave the door open to it.

Continued below;

OK.

Ciao

- viole
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Well he is comparing what you could have gained with what you chose. he used a metaphor to indicate how bad your choice was. I have very good reasons for thinking Hell is eventual annihilation but the fire and brimstone version has been so widely accepted I would hesitate to rule it out even though it causes so many and so drastic a bunch of internal problems and inconsistencies I can't buy into it.

I am thrilled that you do not always accept things because they are widely accepted.


Then why do many well aged scholars (even countless non-believers) still consider it by far the most complex and meaningful text ever written. Of course claims such as you find in the bible will cause creatures as limited as we are to pause many times but answers exist to most of the issues we encounter. Ultimately it all depends on our hearts. A wiling heart has more than enough evidence and internal consistency, for the unwilling heart there can't possibly ever be enough. If the bible did not cause us to go "say what" every once in a while I would take that as evidence humans created it.

Yes, for a willing heart everything is possible. I am not willing a lot of things, but I have to accept their evidence, nevertheless. Cancer, for instance.

In my case I thought there probably was not a God but if there was I hated him. There is nothing incoherent about that on any level. There is plenty wrong but nothing illogical.

If you define God as the entity that has a final plan and will guarantee a happy ending anyway, then I think it was illogical.


You do not seem to be but I rarely find anyone that is truly agnostic or for whom preference does not play a major role in disbelief.

I am actually true gnostic about the non existence of God.

I would be to. I believe it is my life and if I want to end it I should be allowed. The bible has quite a few suicides in it and while they may have done many things wrong up to that point I don't remember God condemning them for he suicide alone. I probably have more contentions with Catholicism than you do so we can agree to disagree with much of what they cough up. I think Catholicism has been more detrimental to faith than any other group of any kind. Some things they got more right than protestants but they are few and far between.

OK.

Was the reason for the move euthanasia, you might be the first. Is the reason he denies God only what he was told about Euthanasia?

Nope. That was incidental. My husband is an antitheist, ala Hitchens.

Everyone is not female, just kidding. I can present the most incontrovertible arguments against abortion and homosexuality I have ever heard for any subjects from a secular viewpoint alone. However it is the makeup of a country hast determines what laws are. If you have a minority of Christians then I have no issue with you accepting homosexuality though I think you would be wrong it is your right I guess. That is why I don't spend much time debating legality but moral ontology. In our country it is a bit weird because 80% of us are Christian but most of he judges are not. We vote not to legalize gay marriage and the judges say screw you and do it anyway.

I thought you did, at least in some States.

Joking or not it is true. I have studied history my whole life. I studied mathematics out of necessity for ten years (I could not get it in 4). I am not a mathematician in any sense but was always good with the underlying principles of both math and especially physics but they taught application science in my classes not theoretical stuff as you rely on quite a bit. I was taught what it took to build stuff not what is discussed that has no application in industry. Just as info I went to the same university as the Apollo program guys, where Von Braun used to wander the halls. The Redstone arsenal here has a library with a basement full of old Russian mathematic texts from the 20th century which my boss lives in at times.

OK.

Hey did you say Italy was so controlled by Christian doctrine they outlawed euthanasia? I find that hard to fathom since Europe has gone so hard to the secular side in recent decades, maybe Italy is an exception.

It is relative. Probably, Italy is very secular when compared with Alabama. But not so when compared with Sweden

Ciao

- viole
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
It is generally believed that Matthew was written before A.D. 70 and as early as A.D. 50 - NOT CONTEMPORANEOUS.
You might want to double check this with your historian friends. There might be some historians who believe that Matthew was written before 70 CE, but that is definitely a minority view. It is the general consensus among historians that Matthew was written after 70 CE, somewhere between 80 or 90 CE.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Yup, but it does demonstrate how little the religionists often know about their own stuff. If I knew as little biology as they seem to know about the gospels, I'd never have graduated.

A very large assumption on your part.

God is held as firm belief by many people...not just the uneducated.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I am not a historian, but I have many friends who are. Two contemporaneous cross-references seems to be the agreed upon criterion.
I don't know who your friends are but my criteria is the official requirements that the historical method spell out. There are countless historical events taught in history classes in colleges around the world which do not have any contemporary sources what so ever. For example even everyday claims like the Gallic wars have zero contemporary accounts. The earliest sources that exist are 950 years after the originals and we only have tow copies, yet these wars appear in ever western civilization book printed. Just guess I would suggest more accepted facts from ancient history have less than 1 or a single source which is not contemporary than those that meet your criteria. You further compound the problem if you accept evolution and it's massively older and complete lack of contemporary witnesses. However just to have some fun I will accept your standards because unlike most of history the bible exceeds them.

It is generally believed that Matthew was written before A.D. 70 and as early as A.D. 50 - NOT CONTEMPORANEOUS.
It most certainly is contemporary. It does not matter what date the event was written down, it matters if the person existed at the same time, the bible goes further in that most Gospel writers were personal eyewitnesses to the events themselves. Virtually no event in human history was recorded real time is it occurred. I don't think that is even theoretically possible so no historical standard has ever existed that requires it. In history and law the only relevant issue is was the witness there. Exactly what event do you know of that has a real time recording of it before the invention of TV and radio. In fact even it has a delay and is not real time.

Generally, Mark is said to be the earliest gospel with an authorship of between A.D. 55 to A.D. 70. - NOT CONTEMPORANEOUS.
Do you know what the standard that can be reasonably expected for texts of this time. Not a single book of any kind can even come fractionally close to the bible for multiple attestation, time period between event and recording them in extant copies, and integrity of the textual tradition. Not one, there is not even a close second. Your friends are either sadly mistaken or they do not study ancient history.

John is the last of the gospels and appears to have been written in the 80's to 90's. Most scholars say it was written in the early 90's. - NOT CONTEMPORANEOUS.

Three strikes ... you're out!
You might call a fair ball that clears the fence a strike but the three points would still be counted by any actual historian or legal expert in testimony and evidence. Why don't we ask a few of the most relevant and famous scholars?


The noted scholar, Professor Edwin Gordon Selwyn, says: "The fact that Christ rose from the dead on the third day in full continuity of body and soul - that fact seems as secure as historical evidence can make it."

Many impartial students who have approached the resurrection of Chris with a judicial spirit have been compelled by the weight of the evidence to belief in the resurrection as a fact of history. An example may be taken from a letter written by Sir Edward Clarke, K. C. "As a lawyer I have made a prolonged study of the evidences for the events of the first Easter Day. To me the evidence is conclusive, and over and over again in the High Court I have secured the verdict on evidence not nearly so compelling. Inference follows on evidence, and a truthful witness is always artless and disdains effect. The Gospel evidence for the resurrection is of this class, and as a lawyer I accept it unreservedly as the testimony of truthful men to facts they were able to substantiate."

Professor Thomas Arnold, cited by Wilbur Smith, was for 14 years the famous headmaster of Rugby, author of a famous three-volume History of Rome, appointed to the char of Modern History at Oxford, and certainly a man well acquainted with the value of evidence in determining historical facts. This great scholar said: "The evidence for our LORD's life and death and resurrection may be, and often has been, shown to be satisfactory; it is good according to the common rules for distinguishing good evidence from bad. Thousands and tens of thousands of persons have gone through it piece by piece, as carefully as every judge summing up on a most important cause. I have myself done it many times over, not to persuade others but to satisfy myself. I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which GOD hath given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead."

Wilbur Smith writes of a great legal authority of the last century. He refers to John Singleton Copley, better known as Lord Lyndhurst (1772-1863), recognized as one of the greatest legal minds in British history, the Solicitor-General of the British government in 1819, attorney-general of Great Britain in 1824, three times High Chancellor of England, and elected in 1846, High Steward of the University of Cambridge, thus holding in one lifetime the highest offices which a judge in Great Britain could ever have conferred upon him. "I know pretty well what evidence is; and I tell you, such evidence as that for the Resurrection has never broken down yet."

Simon Greenleaf (1783-1853) was the famous Royall Professor of Law at Harvard University, and succeeded Justice Joseph Story as the Dane Professor of Law in the same university, upon Story's death in 1846.

H. W. H Knott says of this great authority in jurisprudence: "To the efforts of Story and Greenleaf is to be ascribed the rise of the Harvard Law School to its eminent position among the legal schools of the United States."

Greenleaf produced a famous work entitled A Treatise on the Law of Evidence which "is still considered the greatest single authority on evidence in the entire literature of legal procedure."

In 1846, while still Professor of Law at Harvard, Greenleaf wrote a volume entitled An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice. In his classic work the author examines the value of the testimony of the apostles to the resurrection of Christ. The following are this brilliant jurist's critical observations:
The great truths which the apostles declared, were, that Christ had risen from the dead, and that only through repentance from sin, and faith in Him, could men hope for salvation. This doctrine they asserted with one voice, everywhere, not only under the greatest discouragements, but in the face of the most appalling errors that can be represented to the mind of man. Their master had recently perished as a malefactor, by the sentence of a public tribunal. His religion sought to overthrow the religions of the whole world. The laws of every country were against the teachings of His disciples. The interests and passions of all the rulers and great men in the world were against them. The fashion of the world was against them. Propagating this new faith, even in the most inoffensive and peaceful manner, they could expect nothing but contempt, opposition, reviling's, bitter persecutions, stripes, imprisonments, torments, and cruel deaths. Yet this faith they zealously did propagate; and all these miseries they endured undismayed, nay, rejoicing. As one after another was put to a miserable death, the survivors only prosecuted their work with increased vigor and resolution. The annals of military warfare afford scarcely an example of the like heroic constancy, patience, and unflinching courage. They had every possible motive to review carefully the grounds of their faith, and the evidences of the great facts and truths which they asserted; and these motives were pressed upon their attention with the most melancholy and terrific frequency. It was therefore impossible that they could have persisted in affirming the truths they have narrated, had not Jesus actually risen from the dead, and had they not known this fact as certainly as they knew any other fact. If it were morally possible for them to have been deceived in this matter, every human motive operated to lead them to discover and avow their error. To have persisted in so gross a falsehood, after it was known to them, was not only to encounter, for life, all the evils which man could inflict, from without, but to endure also the pangs of inward and conscious guilt; with no hope of future peace, no testimony of a good conscience, no expectation of honor or esteem among men, no hope of happiness in this life, or in the world to come.
"Such conduct in the apostles would moreover have been utterly irreconcilable with the fact that they possessed the ordinary constitution of our common nature. Yet their lives do show them to have been men like all others of our race; swayed by the same motives, animated by the same hopes, affected by the same joys, subdued by the same sorrows, agitated by the same fears, and subject to the same passions, temptations, and infirmities, as ourselves. And their writings show them to have been men of vigorous understandings. If then their testimony was not true, there was no possible motive for its fabrication."
Evidence That Demands a Verdict - Ch. 10 p. 2

Now besides these guys being far more familiar with what constitutes reliable texts, testimony, and historical evidence than me, you, or your friends, they had a lot to do with creating the standards, themselves.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Yes, and I had lived in the 15th century, I would have definetely seen God in the amazing design of a stick insect.
Many credible scholars still do to this day. Evolution is so finely balanced it's self as to be practically miraculous it's self, but I don't want to get into evolution. Biology bores me to tears.

But now we have a good naturalistic explanation for all complexity and design-like features of life. So, we have at least one case of complexity arising naturally or, if you do not accept evolution, one case with a viable, alternative explanation at least.
I do accept it, I just do not believe it is an ultimate explanation of anything. It appears to be finely tuned as well, but that subject will get out of hand fast.

Therefore, complexity and designed-looking entails design, is not a necessary conclusion.
Random complexity is a grey area but information is a whole other issue. As I am sure you know nature can make patterns like ABABABABAB but it has never been shown to write a sonnet in English. That is because information is specified complexity. As I have said my boss is on the cutting edge of information theory and a little has rubbed off. Not only does it require nature to have intent but nature must plan that intent. Information alone is useless, it must have a distinct decoder, and that decoder must be tuned to the type of information used. There is a brilliant expert on biological information named A.E Wilder (I believe) that can really explain this stuff in simple terms. It would be worth a visit to his talks on u-tube, Google video, etc.....

Of course, there was no conflict. Although, probably, in biology you might have needed to relax a bit the idea of supernatural design if you wanted progress.
I only care that no serious barrier exists between science and faith to be acknowledged. it seems it has been.

There are other things common during the era of Newton and Leibnitz. They were wearing funny whigs. That had no conflict either.
They wore members of an 18th century American political party as hats? That would be weird. The wigs were because lice forced most to shave their heads at one time, then they became a fashion in their own right.

It is a constant claim by non-theists that faith and science are incompatible. I only wished to show that as pathetically untrue. I think it has been so let's roll on.



If you change it to dark matter, then I sort of agree with you. I am myself skeptical of dark matter. It remind me a bit of the ether theory of the 19th century.
I'm not, though what it is could be anything. I understand that there is not enough visible stuff to account for the gravity effects observed. Something is missing and whatever that something is called dark matter. I have no problem with that until it is assumed to be X then all kinds of extrapolations are made as facts on top of X.




What? Suppose that a manager breaks some bones of one of his employees with a baseball bat. Is that objectively morally acceptable, since he will have to pay him during sick days, anyway?
That is a bad analogy since the manager does not pay with his own money and the manager did not pay off the man's debt in a contractual relationship which the employee can no longer fill. It is a fact we take monetary compensation for bodily injury every day in courts all over the earth. The only issue left is what amount and we can not meaningfully get into that at this distance from the events and without any objective standard but the principle is perfectly valid and practiced everywhere.

Isn't that clear now why we hate the belief? It makes you justify things that in normal conditions you would never justify, hopefully.
If I say it is clear why you hate it because rebellious man hates accountability and the violence you have to do against clearly justifiable doctrine is evidence of bias would that be persuasive to you. Declarations have little power to influence.



Yes, but now you are begging the question. You seem to assume that objective morality exists and, therefore, there should be a giver or source of this morality to make sense of it. Introducing God's purpose as a possible variable that makes their application and observation sort of time and culture dependent, is equivalent to introducing the thesis in the premises.
If you said you visually apprehended your shoes is that begging the question? In what way is morally apprehending an objective realm of moral truth any different? Especially given that it is a virtually universal that we do so. You, and every one who denies objective morals act as if they do exist.

Moral facts do not change with purpose. For instance killing without justification is never right but what is justified changes based on purpose and circumstance the same way removing an arm is either a crime of an exercise that is highly rewarded based on circumstances or a 20 driving is fine but a 2 year old is not.



OK.

Ciao

- viole
If you actually do agree with the principle then I should expect to see it in practice. Will I?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I never said God killed them because of their sin alone. I said he did so because of the proximity of their level of sin to his chosen conduit for revelation. The same way we tolerate dirt in the yard but not the food. The point was their sin fully validated their judgment not that all judgments are identical.

I cannot imagine small toddlers sinning. And the pets? Did they sin, too? I think it is pretty obvious that someone decided to apply scortched earth tacticts to destroy a local competitor and that God has nothing to do with it.

Israel was not the winner. There is more of their failures in the OT than successes and most of the wining was attributed to God not Israel. Have you read the OT?

Well, there are not many canaanites left teaching their beliefs. Last man standing so to speak.

Btw. An OT question about the OT. Do you think Noah had a copy of it on the ark?

It was the Aztecs who were known for that. The Mayan's actions were child's play compared to the Aztecs. You cannot equate theological systems and condemn them all. On what grounds are you attempting to?

Yeah, whatever. I am asking why God was concerned about the alleged human sacrifices of the Canaanites but forgot the human sacrifices and idolatry performed by others in the following millenia. He just seems to apply judgement locally, which sort of corroborates my theory that all this is just local politics.

I have stated over and over again that moral actions (not moral principles) are different for God and man. We have billions of jurors who hold God innocent, in fact more people associate the biblical God with the greatest possible good than any other concept in history.

What other choice do they have? People don't like to lose their faith. The same is valid for other competing beliefs as well. They all believe in the greatest of all Gods, by definition.


Hosea 13:16 The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."

Do you read the OT? ;) if I replace Hosea with Mein Kampf, and God with Führer, would you notice a substantial disconnect?

In heaven drying their tears.

Yes, they need their mom. Bummer, she is in Hell,

For pity sake they were of the same race and race has nothing what so ever to do with any thing I said. The historical fact that they practiced human sacrifice, raiding their neighbors at harvest time, and were indescrimenantly warlike in general and taught their children to do the same is relevant and is what I stated. This liberal tactic of classifying trying to save the US economy as hating grandmothers, trying to stop 4% of us who are homosexuals from producing 60% of the aids in the nation, or calling terrorists as terrorists as being Islama-phobic, and playing the race card every other breath is beneath you and a despicable tactic that is the enemy of truth.

Move to Sweden or Norway. No economy to be saved, thanks Thor. Not many theists around, though. You would sort of look exotic.

At least, we do not need to pray to find the money to cure our kids or ourselves. It is puzzling to me that the very people in need prefer to pray rather than improving their social welfare because of some alleged Antichrist sitting in the White House. But it is not any of my business.

But I agree on the Islamophobic part.

Well it shouldn't have since they have nothing in common.

Could be. But that was my first mental association.

God thinks like a judge who has decided to work through human agency at times and the limitations that includes. For Goodness if God exists and did this then by the same context those kids are in heaven. Poor children being forced to endure eternal contentment without experiencing loss and death. Lets stop that cruel being who keeps having mercy and justice on even the kids our moral insanity would have doomed forever. If you bring God into an action you bring the entire context he exists within. Doing the former and neglecting the later is intellectual dishonesty.

Ok, may I suggest To God not to use swords to kill babies and their mothers? And to avoid smashing them against rocks, if possible. That could generate some irreversible trauma with all that blood and stuff.

A direct transfer to Heaven woukd be more divine, don't you think so? It would also avoid the trauma on those poor soldiers that have to carry that unpleasant duty.

Our two moral systems are pretty much the same with the exception of that mine is true given my world view and yours is not given yours.

I would like to see some evidence of that. Especially evidence that our moral systems are similar. I don't think they are.

I did not say that is why he did it. I said that is the end result if he did it. Talk about propaganda, what your turning my original statement into is 100% that. Your side kills hundreds of millions of the most innocent human lives to have ever existed for the sole reason of convenience and they do so without being able to help those lives at ....

Well, I am sure Jesus is drying their tears, as well. Although, I have difficulties to imagine weeping fertilized eggs or blastocysts,.

No one merits heaven. Nor is the path the same for all. You keep for some reason injecting fairness into stuff without having the slightest foundation for it within your world view. Good, evil, fairness, and a thousands other things are hollowed out of any relevant meaning without God. You need God before fairness is even relevant. You have to crawl in his lap to slap his face.

Oh please. I cannot possibly do that without applying circular reasoning. By the way, I am also a moral objectivist, if we consider the results of a brain scan as objective evidence of things like empathy and pain for the suffering of others.

There is not a verse that validates that propaganda but even if their were is not the perfect judge of the universe entitled to satisfaction when those that have plagued his creation with rebellion and misery are given justice. Heck even we require justice to such an extent hat when a murderer of those important to us escapes it we in many cases break down psychologically.

Of course there isn't. The only evidence you have that those people were so wicked is a book written by the competing tribe. As an historian, you should know what is more likely: that God ordered the massacre of entire populations, and pets, or that a local tribe convinced themselves that they were sanctioned by their own made-up God.

No, it is possible another God and another moral truth exists. It is not possible that without a moral God to have a true moral standard however by which to judge anything correctly.

Well, using "correctly" begs the question. For who decides what is correct?
And for what you know that other God could be pure evil that hates goodness. How do you know? That God must be pure goodness and justice is wishful thinking that works only if you know already what justice is, to start with.

I do not need luck, it is the easiest argument possible in theology. It may be the most undeniable, unavoidable, and obvious argument in any moral field of study. Which is why most professional atheistic debaters deny objective morality up front despite the fact we all act as if it exists. I do not care about denials of simplistic truth, I am only responsible to provide it.

I know several atheists that are moral realists. I am not, if we do not include the brain scan scenario. I am not, because nobody can provide me with clear-cut criteria to discriminate between right and wrong, whatever they mean. The best they can do is delegating it to God, if they believe, but that is clearly insufficient and ultimately question begging.

I actually think that morality is meaningless when stripped from its biological context.

But within that context, it is possible to define one, but not for all cases. It is basically naturally selected algorithms implementing some species related economics.

I can't discuss anything with you if you wrongly suggest I violated forum rules BTW, and for some reason the last half of this post you just made is just silly where it was not a personal accusation. What is going on? Is the veneer coming off already? This was so disappointing I am logging off for today.

I apologize. That was a stupid line. I did not even know that proselytizing is against the rules (I know, I should read them). I also did not mean that you prozelytize here. You are an evangelical, I presume, so it is logical to assume that you evangelize, somewhere else, at least.

I believe I was emotionally compromised after watching a movie about young Christians missionaries in Africa.

Ciao

- viole
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Many credible scholars still do to this day. Evolution is so finely balanced it's self as to be practically miraculous it's self, but I don't want to get into evolution. Biology bores me to tears.

I do accept it, I just do not believe it is an ultimate explanation of anything. It appears to be finely tuned as well, but that subject will get out of hand fast.

It does not really matter. The fact that it is a viable explanation should convince you that complexity can arise without design. To use your words, the vast majority of scholars in biology agree.

Random complexity is a grey area but information is a whole other issue. As I am sure you know nature can make patterns like ABABABABAB but it has never been shown to write a sonnet in English. That is because information is specified complexity. As I have said my boss is on the cutting edge of information theory and a little has rubbed off. Not only does it require nature to have intent but nature must plan that intent. Information alone is useless, it must have a distinct decoder, and that decoder must be tuned to the type of information used. There is a brilliant expert on biological information named A.E Wilder (I believe) that can really explain this stuff in simple terms. It would be worth a visit to his talks on u-tube, Google video, etc.....

Yes, but nature can produce things like jhvhfxgfcnbjgvj... Random noise, basically. And that random string contains more information than any sonet. Randomness is the best source of new information you can think of.

The fact that a few of these strings are usable and most of them are thrown away, does not suggest a lot of intentionality. Test and trial, at best.


I only care that no serious barrier exists between science and faith to be acknowledged. it seems it has been.

Of course there is. i cannot see how the scientific mechanisms of evolution, incuding meteorites, mass extinctions and other accessory cataclysms, match with a benevolent God who knows what He is doing. Fundamentalist Christians see that, as well. And they are right to fight evolution by natural selection and godless science.

They wore members of an 18th century American political party as hats? That would be weird. The wigs were because lice forced most to shave their heads at one time, then they became a fashion in their own right.

Ok. Learned something new.

It is a constant claim by non-theists that faith and science are incompatible. I only wished to show that as pathetically untrue. I think it has been so let's roll on.

It is a claim of theists too. They just select what is science and what not. Even progressive theists think that some things related to our humanity are off-limits for science. Wonder why.

I'm not, though what it is could be anything. I understand that there is not enough visible stuff to account for the gravity effects observed. Something is missing and whatever that something is called dark matter. I have no problem with that until it is assumed to be X then all kinds of extrapolations are made as facts on top of X.

Something is missing if our theories of gravity are correct. Probably they are, but maybe they are not. Difficult to say. We simply don't know, yet.

That is a bad analogy since the manager does not pay with his own money and the manager did not pay off the man's debt in a contractual relationship which the employee can no longer fill. It is a fact we take monetary compensation for bodily injury every day in courts all over the earth. The only issue left is what amount and we can not meaningfully get into that at this distance from the events and without any objective standard but the principle is perfectly valid and practiced everywhere.

How is that a bad analogy. You can replace manager with company owner if you prefer. And there is a difference between negligent behaviour and voluntary injury, don't you think so?

If I say it is clear why you hate it because rebellious man hates accountability and the violence you have to do against clearly justifiable doctrine is evidence of bias would that be persuasive to you. Declarations have little power to influence.

Violence? I am not planning to break your bones like that slave owner. I am just a little girl from North Europe that couldn't hurt a fly.

If you said you visually apprehended your shoes is that begging the question? In what way is morally apprehending an objective realm of moral truth any different? Especially given that it is a virtually universal that we do so. You, and every one who denies objective morals act as if they do exist.

I cannot possibly control it. For me morality is like a toothache, and it is much of an opinion as a toothache. I cannot possibly control the fireworks that go off in my brain when I see a starving child looking at me with his big desperate eyes or a one day old kid being cut in two by a sword while crying, confused.

At the end of the day is all natural, and reduceable to neural interactions. But it hurts, nevertheless.

Moral facts do not change with purpose. For instance killing without justification is never right but what is justified changes based on purpose and circumstance the same way removing an arm is either a crime of an exercise that is highly rewarded based on circumstances or a 20 driving is fine but a 2 year old is not.

Yes, economics.

If you actually do agree with the principle then I should expect to see it in practice. Will I?

what principle? I am always open to change my mind. I have been ready to change my mind since I was a YEC.

Ciao

- viole
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
I cannot imagine small toddlers sinning. And the pets? Did they sin, too? I think it is pretty obvious that someone decided to apply scortched earth tacticts to destroy a local competitor and that God has nothing to do with it.
I thought I had gone through this. Just as we eradicate all cancer cells or they return God said to wipe out all the Canaanites or their evil would return and compromise his purpose. We are not left to wonder if that is true because The Hebrews instantly disobeyed and did not even get close to wiping out all the Canaanites and so they were plagued and suffered from Canaanite influence for generations and only extreme acts by God stopped the unraveling of his plans, promises, and covenants. Do you not remember me posting this, I swear I remember doing so? There are numerous other factors involved like the limitations of acting through humanity in this case that I am too lazy to keep posting the details of.

This is a good place for the modified Pascal's wager. We are left with countless children dead either way but your views are to deny the only potential hope they or we have without sufficient evidence to do so. Why do something so unnecessary and unwarranted?



Well, there are not many canaanites left teaching their beliefs. Last man standing so to speak.
I meant in general not concerning the Canaanites specifically but many historians say the philistines and/or the Phoenicians were the latter Canaanites so who knows, but that isn't the point. The bible is anything but the flattering of the Hebrews.

Btw. An OT question about the OT. Do you think Noah had a copy of it on the ark?
I am not sure there was a literal Ark. I gave up trying to settle these pre-historical issues to a firm position outside the ones that have philosophical or other evidence or consistency. However if there was a literal Ark he did not have a hard copy but may have had the oral traditions. You must tell me why you ask, this was a first.



Yeah, whatever. I am asking why God was concerned about the alleged human sacrifices of the Canaanites but forgot the human sacrifices and idolatry performed by others in the following millenia. He just seems to apply judgement locally, which sort of corroborates my theory that all this is just local politics.
IMO God was no more concerned about the Canaanite sins than the Aztecs but the impact of them on the people he chose for his revelation. Both were perfectly unjustified but only one could effect his conduit. BTW they were separated by at least 2000 years. The conduit worked and is no more so the issues no longer apply in the same way anyway.



What other choice do they have? People don't like to lose their faith. The same is valid for other competing beliefs as well. They all believe in the greatest of all Gods, by definition.
So it's the tried and worn they don't actually believe it, they have to believe punt. Considering no mortal ever born has faith then only Christians show the ability to leave that which they at one time believed was true so this does not work. Not to mention the first occurrence of actual Christian faith is an experience of God. If God showed up and was mean then Christians would have no need or motivation to accept good passages. Christians alone begin faith by knowing God and his general nature. and not verses is what grounds faith in God's goodness for every actual Christian who ever lived. We use verses to argue from but that is not where we know God's nature from.

Tell me this if God desired evil why is there any good anywhere, and why is there only good in heaven?



Hosea 13:16 The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."
I had never seen that verse used in isolation before but I do remember this one. As the result of their lack of faith a human army with human limitations would invade. They were not instructed to rip up pregnant women but that went with most ancient warfare. So God made the judgment but the aspects of it took human form. Do you want you want to investigate this occurrence in detail.

Do you read the OT? ;) if I replace Hosea with Mein Kampf, and God with Führer, would you notice a substantial disconnect?
If you did so you would be doing violence to each. Hitler is not God he was a Bavarian idiot, Mein Kampf is held to be among the greatest evils and the bible to be the "Good book" so arbitrarily mixing unrelated things is of no value.



Yes, they need their mom. Bummer, she is in Hell,
There is no lack or unmet need in heaven. I will have to leave the how as a mystery but one of the few people who have been to heaven I find convincing among many others said that one look at heaven and no atheist would have a point of any kind. There is no child in Heaven with a broken heart of any kind if it exists. That is what I mean by context. You brought the word heaven into a debate but left out what the word means. AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHHH the bias is so obvious that it is all I can do to pretend it does not exist.



Move to Sweden or Norway. No economy to be saved, thanks Thor. Not many theists around, though. You would sort of look exotic.
No it has to do with dead animals in the ground which have not been drilled out yet, or the fact that Christian countries defeated enemies which would have enslaved both of them, etc..... Not atheism, not Thor, in large part not even Sweden's and Norway's long Christians roots that have molded the nations souls. If you have no economy to save I am not sure that is an advantage however but I know what you meant.

Continued below like it or not there is more:
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
At least, we do not need to pray to find the money to cure our kids or ourselves. It is puzzling to me that the very people in need prefer to pray rather than improving their social welfare because of some alleged Antichrist sitting in the White House. But it is not any of my business.
What on God's green earth are you talking about. The Christian right is the most generous demographic on earth. We have operated more soup kitchens, built more hospitals, sent more missionaries to treat the bodily needs, began more public education systems, etc.... ad infinitum than any private grouping history. We are dying in the Congo delivering food not praying. As usual atheism is a net loss. We match or exceed everything they have done in most categories plus we pray.

But I agree on the Islamophobic part.
The principle was the same in all three examples. None or all. The point was misstating a position so as to create false moral positions is an all to common tactic of the left side of the table.



Could be. But that was my first mental association.
So you type the first thing that pops into the old melon, huh.



Ok, may I suggest To God not to use swords to kill babies and their mothers? And to avoid smashing them against rocks, if possible. That could generate some irreversible trauma with all that blood and stuff.
Based on what do you feel you are in any position to rightly judge these matters. If we listened to you Israel would have not made it out of the desert and Jesus' actions would not have saved billions, because very few have ever heard of what the Canaanites did. I think I will stick with the architect of the universe instead of a random member of a race that has been the architect of the holocaust, nuclear assured destruction, 4700 years of war out of 5000, and the industrial slaughter of hundreds of millions of lives in the womb. On what basis can we be trusted to rightly judge the morality of anything?

A direct transfer to Heaven woukd be more divine, don't you think so? It would also avoid the trauma on those poor soldiers that have to carry that unpleasant duty.
Convenience I do not think was the intent. If it was no one would ever stub their toe or have Obama for a president. Some times object lessons are necessary, sometimes though I do not know why human agency is left to work things out. Neither of us are qualified to meaningfully suggest how it should have been done.



I would like to see some evidence of that. Especially evidence that our moral systems are similar. I don't think they are.
Most humans have similar core moral beliefs. Torture without cause is wrong, murder is wrong, stealing without justification is wrong, etc..... Chesterton (the apostle of common sense) once said "that most men agree about what is wrong in general but they disagree about which wrongs to excuse". However the meaningful point here is that at least my moral beliefs and worldview are compatible and contain the possibility of actually being true. Yours do not. Yours result in a brain geared towards survival and not truth, and no foundation for moral facts at all. Which makes judging God even more ridiculous.



Well, I am sure Jesus is drying their tears, as well. Although, I have difficulties to imagine weeping fertilized eggs or blastocysts,.
Hey you do not even include the full context of my own claims for my claims, you cannot include my context in your claims. On your view those lives were sent into oblivion for the mistakes and convenience of the ones who sent them based on rights that do not exist but even if they did are granted to the one who deprives them to the other. That is moral insanity. In fact if anyone was to ask me to make up a hypothetical failure that would prove beyond anything else the moral failure and schizophrenia of a world view I could not do better.

The person who did not create the life, who cannot save the life, who does not know anything about the soul, and who committed the act that initiated the life in question and denies it the rights, it demands for it's self, which do not even exist, in their world view. Then has the moral arrogance to condemn the author of all life, who can save the life in question, who not only has every right but is the source of all rights, if he merely takes a life from one realm and places it in a better one with complete assurance of it's souls contentment forever if that method was not up to their demands which are based on nothing what ever. You just could not make that stuff up.

Oh please. I cannot possibly do that without applying circular reasoning. By the way, I am also a moral objectivist, if we consider the results of a brain scan as objective evidence of things like empathy and pain for the suffering of others.
A scan might state I have empathy but it does nothing to make empathy right. You can waste your time if you want but without God no matter what words you use your morals are opinion based ethics and not objectively true. I can agree that without God the best we have is social Darwinism but that is so depressing I don't want to bother.

Tell me this: on evolution why is it wrong to wipe out every life form hat it is not beneficial to my clan? Why is it not "right" to do so is better? Since evolution never made two things equal why is racism (as Hitler, Stalin, Huxley, and others saw) not justifiable by evolution? Why is forced copulation not ok as dolphins do it? Why does it not tend to approve of my tribe at the other tribes expense even if mine is wrong and theirs right? Etc.......



Of course there isn't. The only evidence you have that those people were so wicked is a book written by the competing tribe. As an historian, you should know what is more likely: that God ordered the massacre of entire populations, and pets, or that a local tribe convinced themselves that they were sanctioned by their own made-up God.
As a historian I know exactly why that in spite of the fact that it is written by the victors it is reliable. If I am an expert in anything it is military history and I know very well how to separate the gloating of the self justifying victorious from the facts of the coincidentally victorious. You look for the principle of embarrassment, hostile claims of witnesses, corroborating evidence. The Canaanites worshiping of the human sacrifice demanding Moloch is pretty much conceded by secular history. In fact I never argued in defense of these acts until I had read secular historians concerning it. I even left out the evidence that they walled up children live in foundational deposits. I have included it before if you want to search. They actually have babies sacrificed in foundational baskets in museums.



Well, using "correctly" begs the question. For who decides what is correct?
And for what you know that other God could be pure evil that hates goodness. How do you know? That God must be pure goodness and justice is wishful thinking that works only if you know already what justice is, to start with.
Are you suggesting we abandon attempts to be correct as hopeless? It would save a lot of time.


I know several atheists that are moral realists. I am not, if we do not include the brain scan scenario. I am not, because nobody can provide me with clear-cut criteria to discriminate between right and wrong, whatever they mean. The best they can do is delegating it to God, if they believe, but that is clearly insufficient and ultimately question begging.
I would bet every penny (and there are few) that you do not act as if that is correct. Even Manson and the heart tearing Aztecs believed certain morals are true. Do you believe torturing a child for no reason in a Nazi death camp is merely unfashionable or actually wrong?

I actually think that morality is meaningless when stripped from its biological context.
To quote you that is because you have to, but unlike your view we al act as if mine view is actually true. That is except maybe true psychopaths.

But within that context, it is possible to define one, but not for all cases. It is basically naturally selected algorithms implementing some species related economics.
What are natural algorithms? What made them?



I apologize. That was a stupid line. I did not even know that proselytizing is against the rules (I know, I should read them). I also did not mean that you prozelytize here. You are an evangelical, I presume, so it is logical to assume that you evangelize, somewhere else, at least.
No problem. If anything I am an apologist-lite. I do not feel my moral record justifies prostelization as I am no moral example. I have been a prayer councilor and a teacher but I would have to be much more disciplined before I set out to evangelize but I do have lay evangelists ask me questions from time to time.

I believe I was emotionally compromised after watching a movie about young Christians missionaries in Africa.
What did they do that impacted you in such a way?

Ciao

- viole
No worries, C-ya.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
It does not really matter. The fact that it is a viable explanation should convince you that complexity can arise without design. To use your words, the vast majority of scholars in biology agree.

1. An emergence of complexity is not a commentary on the root of complexity, nor is this even remotely the same type of complexity. Nature can produce lower than equilibrium complexity but as you rise above equilibrium things get complicated.
2. They only concede to a theory not a fact. It is faith at least in part not science from A-Z.
3. Evolution can explain something's like a change in already unimaginably complex codes. The code is what it can't explain. Codes only have mind as a known source.

The discussion about complexity ironically is too complex to cover here.



Yes, but nature can produce things like jhvhfxgfcnbjgvj... Random noise, basically. And that random string contains more information than any sonet. Randomness is the best source of new information you can think of.
Actually it can't. Each one of those characters is a human creation from mind. Anyway lets let Hollywood settle this of all people. In the movie contact they listened to outer space and got only noise. They said if they ever got specified complexity as in a word or a series of digital instructions that would be proof of not just life but intelligent life. What could be any simpler? But in real life SETI has been doing the exact same thing, got only noise and gave it up and shut down.

The fact that a few of these strings are usable and most of them are thrown away, does not suggest a lot of intentionality. Test and trial, at best.
That is why this subject gets too complex to quick and why I am talking about origins. Supposedly the first life to "emerge" was a single cell, yet it came with a code already intact which was millions of times longer than our longest words. Then we get into chemical evolution and probabilities of correct choices being retained in time versus them breaking apart in time. It just gets way too big to fast. None of it helps your case but it just gets too large to post.




Of course there is. i cannot see how the scientific mechanisms of evolution, incuding meteorites, mass extinctions and other accessory cataclysms, match with a benevolent God who knows what He is doing. Fundamentalist Christians see that, as well. And they are right to fight evolution by natural selection and godless science.
There are precious few Christians who fight evolution these days or ever really. There are millions including the one who cracked the genome who see no problem between them. In fact long before a monk first thought about evolution there was allowances for the time and evolution in very popular interpretations of genesis.



Ok. Learned something new.
New but not very helpful. I am full of those.



It is a claim of theists too. They just select what is science and what not. Even progressive theists think that some things related to our humanity are off-limits for science. Wonder why.
Christians formed most of the fields of science themselves so I do not agree that we dilute it in anyway. No molecule in the entire universe tells anyone the way things should be so there is no natural explanation for morality that is coherent. You may get some arbitrary and untrue opinion based ethics from nature but not morals. That's at least one.

Something is missing if our theories of gravity are correct. Probably they are, but maybe they are not. Difficult to say. We simply don't know, yet.
You keep that quiet, many a grant is dependent on the illusion that we know what we do not.



How is that a bad analogy. You can replace manager with company owner if you prefer. And there is a difference between negligent behaviour and voluntary injury, don't you think so?
You ask why it's bad and then affirm it must be changed. Yes, intent. You forgot that the master in Leviticus had already paid the man's debt and was now deprived of his return. It was monetary payment for physical damage the exact same as we do today 4000 years later. Plus add in that the 'master' also supplied food, at times property, housing, water, protection, etc..... and he suffered quite a bit here.



Violence? I am not planning to break your bones like that slave owner. I am just a little girl from North Europe that couldn't hurt a fly.
I was not diving for the air raid shelter I assure you.



I cannot possibly control it. For me morality is like a toothache, and it is much of an opinion as a toothache. I cannot possibly control the fireworks that go off in my brain when I see a starving child looking at me with his big desperate eyes or a one day old kid being cut in two by a sword while crying, confused.
Strange, toothaches are said to ache not to be moral wrongs at the dentist. Maybe I should go to the moral theorist to get my next filling or the dentist to debate abortion.

At the end of the day is all natural, and reduceable to neural interactions. But it hurts, nevertheless.
That is very narrow and depressing, and a little arrogant as well. Which one defines truth? Not all morality concerns pain and not all pain involves morality?



Yes, economics.
Reagan once said the game of economic trivial pursuit has 100 questions and a thousand answers. What question was your answer to?



what principle? I am always open to change my mind. I have been ready to change my mind since I was a YEC.
I do not expect you to, but I should expect you to, give hope every possible chance instead of every possible attack.

Ciao

- viole
Later
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
1. An emergence of complexity is not a commentary on the root of complexity, nor is this even remotely the same type of complexity. Nature can produce lower than equilibrium complexity but as you rise above equilibrium things get complicated.
2. They only concede to a theory not a fact. It is faith at least in part not science from A-Z.
3. Evolution can explain something's like a change in already unimaginably complex codes. The code is what it can't explain. Codes only have mind as a known source.

The discussion about complexity ironically is too complex to cover here.

The discussion about complexity is too complex? Looks like a self referential deadlock ;)

How do you support your knowledge that codes can only come from minds?

Actually it can't. Each one of those characters is a human creation from mind. Anyway lets let Hollywood settle this of all people. In the movie contact they listened to outer space and got only noise. They said if they ever got specified complexity as in a word or a series of digital instructions that would be proof of not just life but intelligent life. What could be any simpler? But in real life SETI has been doing the exact same thing, got only noise and gave it up and shut down.

I don't know what you mean. The background cosmic radiation is a good source of random noise. You can see that on old untuned TVs. You can generate very random strings of characters with that.

Do you really think that a sonet or the DNA has more information than an equally long string of perfectly random characters?

That is why this subject gets too complex to quick and why I am talking about origins. Supposedly the first life to "emerge" was a single cell, yet it came with a code already intact which was millions of times longer than our longest words. Then we get into chemical evolution and probabilities of correct choices being retained in time versus them breaking apart in time. It just gets way too big to fast. None of it helps your case but it just gets too large to post.

Nope. We do not know how life arose. It could have been in the form of very simple replicators with almost no code.

There are precious few Christians who fight evolution these days or ever really. There are millions including the one who cracked the genome who see no problem between them. In fact long before a monk first thought about evolution there was allowances for the time and evolution in very popular interpretations of genesis.

Yes, it is true. But I don't think that those millions really made their homework. They are ultimately creationists fighting crationism, which is odd. And they pollute both the Bible and science.

New but not very helpful. I am full of those.

You never know. You might win a million on TV by knowing these things.

Christians formed most of the fields of science themselves so I do not agree that we dilute it in anyway. No molecule in the entire universe tells anyone the way things should be so there is no natural explanation for morality that is coherent. You may get some arbitrary and untrue opinion based ethics from nature but not morals. That's at least one.

There is no supernatural explanation of morality that is coherent either, as your fellow Christians with completely opposing views here seem to confirm. Not to speak of the other beliefs.

Why is that so difficult to agree on what God really wants if you all allegedely have personal relationships with Jesus? Do you talk about the weather?

You keep that quiet, many a grant is dependent on the illusion that we know what we do not.

I would not confuse knowledge with certainty.

You ask why it's bad and then affirm it must be changed. Yes, intent. You forgot that the master in Leviticus had already paid the man's debt and was now deprived of his return. It was monetary payment for physical damage the exact same as we do today 4000 years later. Plus add in that the 'master' also supplied food, at times property, housing, water, protection, etc..... and he suffered quite a bit here.

If you use a baseball bat against your servants today, I doubt you will go away with just some money. Unless you agree with your victim on some money without informing the police.

I don't think that the money in Leviticus goes to the victim, though.

Reminds me, again, of another film: Schindler's List.

Strange, toothaches are said to ache not to be moral wrongs at the dentist. Maybe I should go to the moral theorist to get my next filling or the dentist to debate abortion.

I did not say it is toothache. I said it is like toothache, if I remember correctly.
When you think of little babies aborted, your brain pain centers fire up and inform other cells that there is something to be stopped from occuring.

Your morality can be measured in Volts.

That is very narrow and depressing, and a little arrogant as well. Which one defines truth? Not all morality concerns pain and not all pain involves morality?

True. It can involve the centers of disgust, as well. The same that command you to avoid rotting animals, for instance. Sometimes they play in tandem.

And who cares if they are depressing? Do you base your search for truth according to the pleasantness of a claim?

Reagan once said the game of economic trivial pursuit has 100 questions and a thousand answers. What question was your answer to?

Yes, thousands answers. Like high level morality, that is, morality that it is not immediately correlated with our (genes) survival. Things like the death penalty or gay marriage, so to speak. Things like killing baby is low level morality on which we all agree...almost all.

I do not expect you to, but I should expect you to, give hope every possible chance instead of every possible attack.

Later

It woukd be pointless to try to destroy hope. For it springs eternal, and it is a very powerful evolutionary adaptation, like your belief in an ultimate destiny or goal.

From an economical point of view, it is much better to hope against all odds by default than to stop hoping according to some precise criteria that might complicate our brain structure and economy beyond necessity.

Nature is lazy, I am afraid.

Ciao

- viole
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I thought I had gone through this. Just as we eradicate all cancer cells or they return God said to wipe out all the Canaanites or their evil would return and compromise his purpose. We are not left to wonder if that is true because The Hebrews instantly disobeyed and did not even get close to wiping out all the Canaanites and so they were plagued and suffered from Canaanite influence for generations and only extreme acts by God stopped the unraveling of his plans, promises, and covenants. Do you not remember me posting this, I swear I remember doing so? There are numerous other factors involved like the limitations of acting through humanity in this case that I am too lazy to keep posting the details of.

Do you compare little babies and animals to cancer cells?

This is a good place for the modified Pascal's wager. We are left with countless children dead either way but your views are to deny the only potential hope they or we have without sufficient evidence to do so. Why do something so unnecessary and unwarranted?

I find it difficult to give words of hope to an embryo or to a few days old child. At best, i would try to comfort the last moments of an older child dying of cancer.

Do you really believe I would tell a four years old kid dying of leukemia that she is facing an eternity of nothingness?

Of course, I would lie. But you are not four years old, I presume :)

I meant in general not concerning the Canaanites specifically but many historians say the philistines and/or the Phoenicians were the latter Canaanites so who knows, but that isn't the point. The bible is anything but the flattering of the Hebrews.

I think that being the chosen one is quote flattering. I would be flattered if the creator of the universe wrote His word to the whole humanity based on what i do. Independently of my shortcomings.

I am not sure there was a literal Ark. I gave up trying to settle these pre-historical issues to a firm position outside the ones that have philosophical or other evidence or consistency. However if there was a literal Ark he did not have a hard copy but may have had the oral traditions. You must tell me why you ask, this was a first.

You are not sure about a literal ark. Good. i have hope for you, lol.

I always wondered whether we can trust the histories in the OT before his time. You know, for being a drunkyard and on account of all those useless copies destroyed by the flood. Maybe some copies floated on the water, but there is no evidence of any of them being found in Australia or the North Pole.

If you indulge my humor, Genesis really seems like the work of imagination of a person that drinks too much.

IMO God was no more concerned about the Canaanite sins than the Aztecs but the impact of them on the people he chose for his revelation. Both were perfectly unjustified but only one could effect his conduit. BTW they were separated by at least 2000 years. The conduit worked and is no more so the issues no longer apply in the same way anyway.

Yes, the people He chose. Multitasking does not seem a quality of God. One job at the time.

So it's the tried and worn they don't actually believe it, they have to believe punt. Considering no mortal ever born has faith then only Christians show the ability to leave that which they at one time believed was true so this does not work. Not to mention the first occurrence of actual Christian faith is an experience of God. If God showed up and was mean then Christians would have no need or motivation to accept good passages. Christians alone begin faith by knowing God and his general nature. and not verses is what grounds faith in God's goodness for every actual Christian who ever lived. We use verses to argue from but that is not where we know God's nature from.

Tell me this if God desired evil why is there any good anywhere, and why is there only good in heaven?

I could apply full antisymmetry and return you the question.

Tell me this if God desired good why is there any evil anywhere, and why is there only evil in hell?

I had never seen that verse used in isolation before but I do remember this one. As the result of their lack of faith a human army with human limitations would invade. They were not instructed to rip up pregnant women but that went with most ancient warfare. So God made the judgment but the aspects of it took human form. Do you want you want to investigate this occurrence in detail.

May I then add another suggestion to God? Please God, can you stop giving hints about possible ways to execute pregnant women and how to deal with infants, especially if you already know that they will do exactly what you suggest, anyway. That would reduce the need to explain of your future apologists.

If you did so you would be doing violence to each. Hitler is not God he was a Bavarian idiot, Mein Kampf is held to be among the greatest evils and the bible to be the "Good book" so arbitrarily mixing unrelated things is of no value.

He was not Bavarian. He was Austrian. Historian, eh? ;)

There is no lack or unmet need in heaven. I will have to leave the how as a mystery but one of the few people who have been to heaven I find convincing among many others said that one look at heaven and no atheist would have a point of any kind. There is no child in Heaven with a broken heart of any kind if it exists. That is what I mean by context. You brought the word heaven into a debate but left out what the word means. AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHHH the bias is so obvious that it is all I can do to pretend it does not exist.

One of the few people who have been in Heaven you find convincing?

No it has to do with dead animals in the ground which have not been drilled out yet, or the fact that Christian countries defeated enemies which would have enslaved both of them, etc..... Not atheism, not Thor, in large part not even Sweden's and Norway's long Christians roots that have molded the nations souls. If you have no economy to save I am not sure that is an advantage however but I know what you meant.

Yes, our christian roots are so strong that today only a minority believes in a personal God. And that minority includes the muslims.

Ciao

- viole
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
What on God's green earth are you talking about. The Christian right is the most generous demographic on earth. We have operated more soup kitchens, built more hospitals, sent more missionaries to treat the bodily needs, began more public education systems, etc.... ad infinitum than any private grouping history. We are dying in the Congo delivering food not praying. As usual atheism is a net loss. We match or exceed everything they have done in most categories plus we pray.

The principle was the same in all three examples. None or all. The point was misstating a position so as to create false moral positions is an all to common tactic of the left side of the table.

Yes, as long as you make sure that homosexuality is an abomination, by law.

So you type the first thing that pops into the old melon, huh.

You are not a gentleman. It is not so old.

Based on what do you feel you are in any position to rightly judge these matters. If we listened to you Israel would have not made it out of the desert and Jesus' actions would not have saved billions, because very few have ever heard of what the Canaanites did. I think I will stick with the architect of the universe instead of a random member of a race that has been the architect of the holocaust, nuclear assured destruction, 4700 years of war out of 5000, and the industrial slaughter of hundreds of millions of lives in the womb. On what basis can we be trusted to rightly judge the morality of anything?

I am not judging God, on account if His non-existence, which is a pretty powerful excuse.

I am judging the belief that makes otherwise decent people think that killing kids by smashing them against rocks or by letting them being ripped apart by bears is acceptable in at least some situations.


Convenience I do not think was the intent. If it was no one would ever stub their toe or have Obama for a president. Some times object lessons are necessary, sometimes though I do not know why human agency is left to work things out. Neither of us are qualified to meaningfully suggest how it should have been done.

Every democracy deserves the governement they have.

Most humans have similar core moral beliefs. Torture without cause is wrong, murder is wrong, stealing without justification is wrong, etc..... Chesterton (the apostle of common sense) once said "that most men agree about what is wrong in general but they disagree about which wrongs to excuse". However the meaningful point here is that at least my moral beliefs and worldview are compatible and contain the possibility of actually being true. Yours do not. Yours result in a brain geared towards survival and not truth, and no foundation for moral facts at all. Which makes judging God even more ridiculous.

True, brains geared toward survival are not reliable vessels of truth. Intuition is a typical example. That is why we need to tools to validate our natural misconceptions.

The problem is that I think that belief in a final justice, eternal life, goals, purpose, etc. are also geared toward survival. And if this is true (it could be) than your search for asditional truths might be futile. A natural reflex to avoid the consequences of an inherently amoral and indefferent universe, that wouldn't not even notice our sudden disappearance.

A futile exercise of athropocentrism.

Hey you do not even include the full context of my own claims for my claims, you cannot include my context in your claims. On your view those lives were sent into oblivion for the mistakes and convenience of the ones who sent them based on rights that do not exist but even if they did are granted to the one who deprives them to the other. That is moral insanity. In fact if anyone was to ask me to make up a hypothetical failure that would prove beyond anything else the moral failure and schizophrenia of a world view I could not do better.

That we do not have this right is only in your mind. Of course we do, and nobody complains, at least here. Apart some Muslims and Episcopalians minorities.

And you can scream as much as you want, but you will not be able to change a thing. Waving your god or praying in the name of Jesus will not sort any effect, despite John, obviously.

But you can live confident that we are destined to final annihilation and everything will just turn up fine after all, according to the inscrutable God's plan :)

The person who did not create the life, who cannot save the life, who does not know anything about the soul, and who committed the act that initiated the life in question and denies it the rights, it demands for it's self, which do not even exist, in their world view. Then has the moral arrogance to condemn the author of all life, who can save the life in question, who not only has every right but is the source of all rights, if he merely takes a life from one realm and places it in a better one with complete assurance of it's souls contentment forever if that method was not up to their demands which are based on nothing what ever. You just could not make that stuff up.

I told you. I do not condemn the creator of all life, since he does not exist.

A scan might state I have empathy but it does nothing to make empathy right. You can waste your time if you want but without God no matter what words you use your morals are opinion based ethics and not objectively true. I can agree that without God the best we have is social Darwinism but that is so depressing I don't want to bother.

Social Darwinism? We do not have any social darwinism nor god here and we seem to do pretty fine.

Tell me this: on evolution why is it wrong to wipe out every life form hat it is not beneficial to my clan? Why is it not "right" to do so is better? Since evolution never made two things equal why is racism (as Hitler, Stalin, Huxley, and others saw) not justifiable by evolution? Why is forced copulation not ok as dolphins do it? Why does it not tend to approve of my tribe at the other tribes expense even if mine is wrong and theirs right? Etc.......

Oh, the naturalistic fallacy again. There is nothing right or wrong or justifiable in nature or evolution, since nature is amoral, unconscious and does not give a rip of what we think or do, so to speak.

.I think your agency detection sensors and goals searching systems are misfiring. The same with anybody that believe that there is a behaviour that is preferrable because it is "according to nature".


That does not mean that we, within our biological context, should stop justifying things that might be useful for our species.

As a historian I know exactly why that in spite of the fact that it is written by the victors it is reliable. If I am an expert in anything it is military history and I know very well how to separate the gloating of the self justifying victorious from the facts of the coincidentally victorious. You look for the principle of embarrassment, hostile claims of witnesses, corroborating evidence. The Canaanites worshiping of the human sacrifice demanding Moloch is pretty much conceded by secular history. In fact I never argued in defense of these acts until I had read secular historians concerning it. I even left out the evidence that they walled up children live in foundational deposits. I have included it before if you want to search. They actually have babies sacrificed in foundational baskets in museums.

Who cares about Moloch, whatever that was? That does not justify the killing of innocents.

Are you suggesting we abandon attempts to be correct as hopeless? It would save a lot of time.

It depends. Correct about what and for whay goal?

I would bet every penny (and there are few) that you do not act as if that is correct. Even Manson and the heart tearing Aztecs believed certain morals are true. Do you believe torturing a child for no reason in a Nazi death camp is merely unfashionable or actually wrong?

I think it is wrong. Or, better, the current state of my brain computes it as wrong, however my brain associates semantics to the word wrong.

To quote you that is because you have to, but unlike your view we al act as if mine view is actually true. That is except maybe true psychopaths.

Yes we do. We also act as time was different than space. Wrong, but useful in a world where predators don't run at almost the speed of light.

What are natural algorithms? What made them?

The same thing that made the algorithm

Low energy -> compute -> look for food

No problem. If anything I am an apologist-lite. I do not feel my moral record justifies prostelization as I am no moral example. I have been a prayer councilor and a teacher but I would have to be much more disciplined before I set out to evangelize but I do have lay evangelists ask me questions from time to time.

Apologist-lite? You meen like Corrs-lite? :)

What did they do that impacted you in such a way?

No worries, C-ya.

Oh, it is ll in the movie. God loves Uganda.

Ciao

- viole
 
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