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The "something can't come from nothing" argument

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Well that is convenient. Anything that is not part of my arbitrary world view is BS. Yeah I like it, no need for proof, evidence, or even an argument or to actually contend with any of them. I can see it's appeal.
My world view is hardly arbitrarily, it is arbitrated by the rationality of the universe. When it is found to be out of sync, further data collection is conducted and it is adjusted. That makes for a much more consistent and rational view then your approach that the pixies, or some other supernatural being did it.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
My world view is hardly arbitrarily, it is arbitrated by the rationality of the universe. When it is found to be out of sync, further data collection is conducted and it is adjusted. That makes for a much more consistent and rational view then your approach that the pixies, or some other supernatural being did it.

So you believe in time as a force or substance?
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Insufficient data for someone of my level of expertise to form a meaningful and consistent opinion. Maybe someday.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Insufficient data for someone of my level of expertise to form a meaningful and consistent opinion. Maybe someday.

Oh no you don't.
You have been here at length as if you know what you are doing.....
Now you plead ignorance?
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
When it comes to questions such as what is time I'd rather plead ignorance than argue from it. Not my field, not something I really care about, not something I can effect or use. Now ... build me a time machine and I'll shift my interests.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
When it comes to questions such as what is time I'd rather plead ignorance than argue from it. Not my field, not something I really care about, not something I can effect or use. Now ... build me a time machine and I'll shift my interests.

Here you go.....It is not a force or a substance.
It is only a quotient on a chalkboard.

Now then....how's THAT for a shift?!
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
It is a measurement.
Time is a measure of distance compared to speed.

One measure divided by another.

A cognitive device created by Man to serve Man.
Time is all in your head.
You will never find it otherwise.
 
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Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Your kind of running together with others at this point. My fault I am tired. I frequently include a reference to an article in philosophy now. It was in the section on what we know is wrong - "materialism". I have referenced it many times with links and anything else requested. That is what I was referring to. It was an article by top notch scholars citing the cream of the crop like Planck, in order to demonstrate that mind is primary and matter derivative. I do not go to much beyond that point because it is above my head and in that deep end of science I normally complain about. I usually just give it in a well there is this as well kind of context.
I don't know if its the same one but I am aware of the philosophical argument that the mind must be separate from the body but its based on Plato's work which doesn't actually have scientific backings but rather his attempt to explain how things are given his limited resources.
I guess so but it is certainly a shame when something so obvious can't be granted.
Nothing about the creation of the universe is obvious or granted.
I do not think that is necessary but can be done. Every ones scientific views are in large measure based on authority. We read it in a book and even if we can never test it our selves or even get it in it's entirety many times we grant it as true or probable. If you want I can lay out what views that if you hold would be on authority if you want.
Oh. I misunderstood what you meant. I thought you meant that 80% of science was upheld by authority rather than evidence. You meant me personally. That is granted but I don't see how its relevant.
That last sentence lost me. Assume that is that is there........... What?
Sorry I was in a hurry. There is only evidence for the physical so we can only assume that there is the physical. If we go off of only what we have evidence for this thins rings true. Materialism itself isn't the rejection of the possibility of the non-physical but rather the pragmatic conclusion that we cannot base our theories and answers on unknown or unknowable possibilities without evidence.
What necessity? Anything beyond I think is a non necessity based on a non-necessity. This is also confusing given modal being. Do you mean God is not a necessary being or he is not necessary for something?
For our universe to have the properties it does we are missing a large amount of mass in our visible spectrum. Therefore there must be mass that we are not able to detect. That is the necessity. However the argument you have provided makes a leap stating god "must" be the answer. The Necessity of a god is not actually needed. We are still stooped in ignorance about the process so how could we know what is needed for the process to have occurred? Though science has already given an answer (though disatisfactory to you I assume) that Dark energy is what is causing the expansion and what may have caused the big bang.
For the millionth time I know I do not know. That is why my position is called faith not certainty. Again your throwing me off with the modal logic terms used in what appear to be non modal logic ways. Just give me one modal logical affirmation or denial and the context will be far clearer. A finite universe necessarily did begin to exist. Are you talking about contingency or denying the universe is finite?
That we do not know the contingency in which your case rests.
Even if dark energy is a force it is not a force which can be shown to be independent of the universe nor one which can be understood at this time in the universe. It is of absolutely no use as the creating entity. How about that word "entity"? It is neither theological, necessarily personal, nor as technically meaningless as a creative explanation,as force.
Entity or phenomenon would work. I prefer phenomenon.
Dark energy isn't known to be independent of the universe but rather we don't know what it is. The universe is expanding. Something must be causing that regardless what it is. What we call it is dark energy but it might as well be "X" or "Y" or buttercup sprinkle sunday on a bacon sandwich. It is just giving a word to describe whatever unknown is causing this in our universe.
If disagreement was proof against logical conclusions nothing would be known as almost everything is refuted. Again my argument in opinion of so many of those most qualified to know (even on your side) is beyond dismissal and the best currently in town.

In your opinion it is the best. But not by any actual measurable definition. Is the point. It makes the most sense to "YOU" based on your world view and conclusions. But it is not any kind of default or universal "best" conclusion.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
My world view is hardly arbitrarily, it is arbitrated by the rationality of the universe. When it is found to be out of sync, further data collection is conducted and it is adjusted. That makes for a much more consistent and rational view then your approach that the pixies, or some other supernatural being did it.

1. Tell you what, I can agree arbitrary was not good word choice there. Consider it withdrawn. I meant to use it another way but a fail is a fail I guess.
2. How did rationality get into the universes by materialistic processes? The scientific explosion in the enlightenment has been traced to one dominant force even by many atheistic scholars. It was faith. Men of faith believing God to be rational set out to decode the rationality in nature. Modern science followed.
3. I have heard so many scholars claim this that I have given up and accepted it. I kind of get it but I do not see the level of profoundness to it that so many do. Maybe you can. In countless scholars words I find the exact same claim. The most amazing they have ever discovered or pondered on any type is that our minds are rationally tuned to decode the rationality of the universe. They say not only is there no materialistic explanation there can never be one for that fact. I barely get it, but thought I would throw it out there. You might get it in totality.
4. While I could rant arbitrary was bad word choice your pixie analogy is horrific word choice. It is Christians who fund and arrange for the challenges to their faith. It has been Christians who have dominated modern sciences investigation of the facts in nature. We more than any other group of any kind get and welcome scrutiny. The most intellectual and investigative minds in history have included massive numbers of Christians. Entire fields of the investigative sciences themselves are Christian creations. My wording warranted retraction yours did not merit inclusion at all. It increasingly is science used as justification for faith in professional debate. This is trending in the exact opposite way you suggest.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I don't know if its the same one but I am aware of the philosophical argument that the mind must be separate from the body but its based on Plato's work which doesn't actually have scientific backings but rather his attempt to explain how things are given his limited resources.
I do not remember if Plato was sourced or not. I was in over my head and may not have noticed. I did notice many names. Every one an A list genius. The paper was full of science. They either advanced Plato's argument by light years or it was a new one. It does not matter. I hate this theoretical stuff even if it is on my side.

Nothing about the creation of the universe is obvious or granted.
Seems not only obvious but a necessity. Of course what is obvious is subjective.

Oh. I misunderstood what you meant. I thought you meant that 80% of science was upheld by authority rather than evidence. You meant me personally. That is granted but I don't see how its relevant.
Glad to find you accommodating. It was a reference to the stands thing. Non-theists object to arguments from authority yet most of the beliefs the hold are just such.

Sorry I was in a hurry. There is only evidence for the physical so we can only assume that there is the physical. If we go off of only what we have evidence for this thins rings true. Materialism itself isn't the rejection of the possibility of the non-physical but rather the pragmatic conclusion that we cannot base our theories and answers on unknown or unknowable possibilities without evidence.
I have evidence for God. In fact I have subjective proof of God. So I am warranted. One of the biggest problems in theological debate is that theists and non-theists are on two different pages. They are not born again and that is where the greatest argument for God exists. I must ignore my best justifications and deal with lesser issues. But we can do more than what you suggest. For example we can find that materialism does not explain many areas of reality. Materialism cannot create it's self, it doe snot explain the universal experience of an objective moral realm, it does not explain ascetics, nor does abstract concepts being rationally valid. So we can without any problem suggest that something more than materialism exists. Combined with the evidence for God and we can easily justify having faith in the supernatural.

For our universe to have the properties it does we are missing a large amount of mass in our visible spectrum. Therefore there must be mass that we are not able to detect. That is the necessity. However the argument you have provided makes a leap stating god "must" be the answer. The Necessity of a god is not actually needed. We are still stooped in ignorance about the process so how could we know what is needed for the process to have occurred? Though science has already given an answer (though dissatisfactory to you I assume) that Dark energy is what is causing the expansion and what may have caused the big bang.
That is only true (and it probably is) if all our science is right, at least the mass part. However given the inescapable probability that we have accessed less than the tiniest fraction of what govern reality anything can happen. Do you want to know how assumptive science is? We have tested at best 1 trillionth of a trillionth of a trillions.........................etc % of the universe but have assumed the other 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 infinitum % behaves the exact same way. It is the best we have so I go with it, I just keep these assumptions in mind.

As what caused the big bang goes. 1. This is the first time in well over 20 years of listening to and participating in debates I have ever heard it claimed that that thing we do not know whether it exists or not caused it. 2. That makes the assumptions I listed above look like certainties. 3. It defies cosmology. Modern cosmology posits a finite universe of which dark matter and energy would be a possible component that is also finite in time. The dark matter or energy which may not even exist at is one poor cause of it's own existence.

That we do not know the contingency in which your case rests.
Ok, so not in a modal logic sense. I am happy with a placeholder (technically force is not a good one) for a cause that is independent of space, independent of space time, and independent of matter, is not a known component of this universe, and is probably person as well as being more powerful , more intelligent, than we can comprehend. The necessity of something with those characteristic is almost certain. It being God is more of a theological consistency view and not part of this point. So call that anything that will work and I am fine with it.

Entity or phenomenon would work. I prefer phenomenon.
Dark energy isn't known to be independent of the universe but rather we don't know what it is. The universe is expanding. Something must be causing that regardless what it is. What we call it is dark energy but it might as well be "X" or "Y" or buttercup sprinkle sunday on a bacon sandwich. It is just giving a word to describe whatever unknown is causing this in our universe.
I am fine with phenomena. We do not know it exists, how can we even begin to think about what it is or is dependent upon. Space is far more concrete and did not exist in the finite past. Hard to put energy no where even if you have some to put anywhere. I agree that the term dark energy is irrelevant but the concept is what I am discussing. Whatever it is thought to be by any name is a guess and we cannot define properties of a guess unless we know what it caused. You could say that if dark matter or energy is the cause of X then it has theses properties I guess.

In your opinion it is the best. But not by any actual measurable definition. Is the point. It makes the most sense to "YOU" based on your world view and conclusions. But it is not any kind of default or universal "best" conclusion.
In every measurable category it is. In evidence, in explanatory scope, in explanatory consistency, etc..... There is not even a distant second. It has been acknowledged as such by those who do not hold my world view, so the convenient dismissal of it on those grounds is moot.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
So you believe in time as a force or substance?

Time is spherical and requires space. At higher levels we have all the time but no space. Our time exists as a result of the expansion. We have no time now which makes it limited. Our substance cannot last outside that state of eternity, but the energy somehow keeps going, doesnt seem to wanna quit but can only last trillions of more years.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Time is spherical and requires space. At higher levels we have all the time but no space. Our time exists as a result of the expansion. We have no time now which makes it limited. Our substance cannot last outside that state of eternity, but the energy somehow keeps going, doesnt seem to wanna quit but can only last trillions of more years.
No it doesn't. Time's model is most often linear or pretty much any functional shape you deem, and it it's self has no physical shape. It is an abstract concept we find useful. Space-time might be spherical as a model. Actually no model of even space time is round I have ever seen and that is about models not time. Time has no physical dimensions of any shape. I was being generous and leaving open the possibility. But your talking about space time not time.

So energy can keep going (which is not time by the way) but only so far. I do not care how long a finite is, it is still infinitely short of being infinite.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
No it doesn't. Time's model is most often linear or pretty much any functional shape you deem, and it it's self has no physical shape. It is an abstract concept we find useful. Space-time might be spherical as a model. Actually no model of even space time is round I have ever seen and that is about models not time. Time has no physical dimensions of any shape. I was being generous and leaving open the possibility. But your talking about space time not time.

So energy can keep going (which is not time by the way) but only so far. I do not care how long a finite is, it is still infinitely short of being infinite.

Spacetime can be thought of as spherical. As such when you are "outside" spacetime your actually within the sphere and in that position can get to point in space in one step.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
It is a measurement.
Time is a measure of distance compared to speed.

One measure divided by another.

A cognitive device created by Man to serve Man.
Time is all in your head.
You will never find it otherwise.
It is strange that something that only exists as a cognitive device in my head can be warped by something like gravity. But then again I suppose that gravity also exists only in my head.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
fantôme profane;3959089 said:
It is strange that something that only exists as a cognitive device in my head can be warped by something like gravity. But then again I suppose that gravity also exists only in my head.

The movement can be influenced.
The measure and effect can be predicted.
Numbers are used because we can't perceive otherwise.

Time is not a force or a substance.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
The movement can be influenced.
The measure and effect can be predicted.
Numbers are used because we can't perceive otherwise.

Time is not a force or a substance.

I can percieve otherwise. I can fathom movement with no aging. Do you think heaven is just a static state of eternally doing nothing?
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Seems not only obvious but a necessity. Of course what is obvious is subjective.
Entirely so actually.
Glad to find you accommodating. It was a reference to the stands thing. Non-theists object to arguments from authority yet most of the beliefs the hold are just such.
But here is the difference. If I wanted the evidence I could go get it. Its there. I just don't have the time, energy or mental fortitude to learn everything about everything. But it is there and it can be found in any particular case. This is true for all scientific facts. Not all scientific theories that have not been verified however. But for everything in science there is evidence of some kind. Otherwise its just off the wall.
I have evidence for God. In fact I have subjective proof of God. So I am warranted. One of the biggest problems in theological debate is that theists and non-theists are on two different pages. They are not born again and that is where the greatest argument for God exists. I must ignore my best justifications and deal with lesser issues. But we can do more than what you suggest. For example we can find that materialism does not explain many areas of reality. Materialism cannot create it's self, it doe snot explain the universal experience of an objective moral realm, it does not explain ascetics, nor does abstract concepts being rationally valid. So we can without any problem suggest that something more than materialism exists. Combined with the evidence for God and we can easily justify having faith in the supernatural.
Subjective experience isn't evidence of anything. By definition it cannot be verified. And the best counter I've found to the people who state that they have subjective evidence of god in their lives I can find a lot of people who have taken acid or shrooms to have come out with far greater feelings of intensity in similar ways. We also know that our emotions and experiences (down to forming memories) are chemical reactions in the brain. I find it hard to reconcile anything that happens totally within the brain with reality if there is not evidence for it with reality.

That isn't to say it isn't true or valid but that we cannot verify it and therefor cannot use it scientifically. There lies the root of the materialistic view. Its a pragmatic conclusion not a total claim of truth.

Though morality can and has been explained with materialism.
That is only true (and it probably is) if all our science is right, at least the mass part. However given the inescapable probability that we have accessed less than the tiniest fraction of what govern reality anything can happen. Do you want to know how assumptive science is? We have tested at best 1 trillionth of a trillionth of a trillions.........................etc % of the universe but have assumed the other 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 infinitum % behaves the exact same way. It is the best we have so I go with it, I just keep these assumptions in mind.

As what caused the big bang goes. 1. This is the first time in well over 20 years of listening to and participating in debates I have ever heard it claimed that that thing we do not know whether it exists or not caused it. 2. That makes the assumptions I listed above look like certainties. 3. It defies cosmology. Modern cosmology posits a finite universe of which dark matter and energy would be a possible component that is also finite in time. The dark matter or energy which may not even exist at is one poor cause of it's own existence.
Because we can observe the universe. The laws of gravity seem to be universal. The speed of light seems to be universal (but there is a small group that think that the speed of light may have been different in the early early universe but they have not brought anything to show for it).

We can "assume" that our measurements are the same here than in other parts of the universe because they have not changed. In other parts of the universe we won't suddenly find anti-matter fields or atoms made with something other than quarks. Simply because we originate from the same thing. The universe is expanding and why would we assume that it is fundamentally different if we haven't seen any evidence for it.

Again science doesn't claim that all laws of physics are universal and we are finding out that that doesn't even hold true here on earth. I know you keep crapping on QM but we DO KNOW FOR A FACT that the quantum world doesn't abide by the same laws and if we go even further we see forces that we don't normally interact with. The strong force, weak force and color force are just a few to look at.

So I don't exactly what your point is with this statement.
Ok, so not in a modal logic sense. I am happy with a placeholder (technically force is not a good one) for a cause that is independent of space, independent of space time, and independent of matter, is not a known component of this universe, and is probably person as well as being more powerful , more intelligent, than we can comprehend. The necessity of something with those characteristic is almost certain. It being God is more of a theological consistency view and not part of this point. So call that anything that will work and I am fine with it.
I'm glad we are making progress in this. Theologically you can claim whatever you want. However why is it required to be intelligent, a person, or even conscious?
I am fine with phenomena. We do not know it exists, how can we even begin to think about what it is or is dependent upon. Space is far more concrete and did not exist in the finite past. Hard to put energy no where even if you have some to put anywhere. I agree that the term dark energy is irrelevant but the concept is what I am discussing. Whatever it is thought to be by any name is a guess and we cannot define properties of a guess unless we know what it caused. You could say that if dark matter or energy is the cause of X then it has theses properties I guess.
Not necessarily. We can't give properties to anything. We have an observable phenomenon (expansion ect) and we know that there must be a reason for it. This reason is unknown so we have given it a name. Dark energy and dark matter may be very very different, one in the same or otherwise.
In every measurable category it is. In evidence, in explanatory scope, in explanatory consistency, etc..... There is not even a distant second. It has been acknowledged as such by those who do not hold my world view, so the convenient dismissal of it on those grounds is moot.

There is no real evidence. There is philosophical arguments not based on evidence. What "philosophical evidence" it has is overstepped by how far the scope tries to reach and the consistency is easy if its un-falsifiable and unknown. If we don't know what it is how can we object to a claim about it?

Like I said. Remove all aspects of "god" and say a "phenomenon" occurred that is likely outside our current laws of the universe and by nature independent of our universe then we are fine. But you cannot tack on intelligence. will, intent, personality, ect.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
1. Tell you what, I can agree arbitrary was not good word choice there. Consider it withdrawn. I meant to use it another way but a fail is a fail I guess.
2. How did rationality get into the universes by materialistic processes? The scientific explosion in the enlightenment has been traced to one dominant force even by many atheistic scholars. It was faith. Men of faith believing God to be rational set out to decode the rationality in nature. Modern science followed.
3. I have heard so many scholars claim this that I have given up and accepted it. I kind of get it but I do not see the level of profoundness to it that so many do. Maybe you can. In countless scholars words I find the exact same claim. The most amazing they have ever discovered or pondered on any type is that our minds are rationally tuned to decode the rationality of the universe. They say not only is there no materialistic explanation there can never be one for that fact. I barely get it, but thought I would throw it out there. You might get it in totality.
4. While I could rant arbitrary was bad word choice your pixie analogy is horrific word choice. It is Christians who fund and arrange for the challenges to their faith. It has been Christians who have dominated modern sciences investigation of the facts in nature. We more than any other group of any kind get and welcome scrutiny. The most intellectual and investigative minds in history have included massive numbers of Christians. Entire fields of the investigative sciences themselves are Christian creations. My wording warranted retraction yours did not merit inclusion at all. It increasingly is science used as justification for faith in professional debate. This is trending in the exact opposite way you suggest.

I keep seeing you state #2 as fact and I wonder why you say so. I was always under the impression that the Age of Enlightenment began the move away from tradition, faith, superstitution and supernaturalism, toward thinking in terms of rationality, skepticism, logic and naturalism.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I can percieve otherwise. I can fathom movement with no aging. Do you think heaven is just a static state of eternally doing nothing?

You crossed two lines with no regard.
Aging is a movement.
Eternal life is likely to be spiritual, not physical.

And if spirit cannot endure....God died a long 'time' ago.
He isn't moving any more.
and He's not waiting for you in your last hour.
 
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