That is correct.
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The Song of Solomon, Chapter 5, Verse 16
- Thread starter Cordoba
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This isnt to say this verse means this or that, as I dont know Hebrew. So ill leave that to someone that does.
But if it helps at all in observing, in Arabic, the Qur'aan refers to prophet Muhammad as both Muhammad and Ahmad. Both revolving around/derived from the root word Hmd. I dont know if this usage of words is done in Hebrew, though.
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Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
isnt Mohammad the most common name in the Arabic world?
so even if the word really was speaking about an individual (which i dont believe it is) how would you know which Mohammad to apply it to?
sadiq
Spain, Morocco, Jerusalem
Completely wrong.
"IM" is added to make a masculine word plural, "Elo*im" is an exception.
When used to refer to Pagan gods it's in Plural and when used to refer to God it's in singular.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
Ah this again.
no. Muhammad is not mentioned in the Hebrew Bible. which was written hundreds of years before the birth of Muhammad.
and I don't understand why someone would cling to such a desperate claim.
the word obviously has a meaning in the Hebrew language and is part of a larger context in the Song of Solomon, absolutely nothing to do with Muhammad.
no. Muhammad is not mentioned in the Hebrew Bible. which was written hundreds of years before the birth of Muhammad.
and I don't understand why someone would cling to such a desperate claim.
the word obviously has a meaning in the Hebrew language and is part of a larger context in the Song of Solomon, absolutely nothing to do with Muhammad.
Song of Solomon 5:16
חִכּוֹ֙ מַֽמְתַקִּ֔ים וְכֻלּ֖וֹ מַחֲמַדִּ֑ים זֶ֤ה דוֹדִי֙ וְזֶ֣ה רֵעִ֔י בְּנ֖וֹת יְרוּשָׁלִָֽם׃
KJV:
His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.
1. Pronunciation:
مُحَمَّد : Muḥammad
מַחֲמַדִּ֑ים : ma·ḥă·mad·dîm
2. Meaning:
مُحَمَّد (Muḥammad): Praised
Muhammad (name) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
passive participle of the triconsonantal root of Ḥ-M-D (Praise); hence Praised.
Lane’s Lexicon: A man praised much, or repeatedly, or time after time
מַחֲמַדִּ֑ים (ma·ḥă·mad·dîm): desire, desirable thing
Strong's Hebrew: 4261. ??????? (machmad) -- desire, desirable thing
Strong:
From chamad; delightful; hence, a delight, i.e. Object of affection or desire -- beloved, desire, goodly, lovely, pleasant (thing).
The Hebrew and Aramaic lexicon of the Old Testament:
מַחְמָד
חמד, mḥmd
1 something desirable, precious object
2 what is pleasing to the eyes
Gesenius' Hebrew and Chaldee lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures:
מַחְמָד
constr. מַחְמַד masc. plur. מַחֲמַדִּים from the root חָמַד
1. desire, hence the object of desire.
2. grace, beauty,
3. something precious.
Complete word study dictionary of the Old Testament:
מַחְמָד
A masculine noun indicating a desire, a desirable thing, a precious thing. It indicates whatever is desirable, something one wishes to have, to possess. It is used of things (1Ki 20:6; 2Ch 36:19; Hos 9:6; Joe 3:5 [4:5]); of persons (Son 5:16). It is used especially of what is attractive to the eyes (1Ki 20:6; Eze 24:16, Eze 24:21, Eze 24:25).
3. Context:
Young's literal translation:
חִכּוֹ֙ מַֽמְתַקִּ֔ים וְכֻלּ֖וֹ מַחֲמַדִּ֑ים
His mouth is sweetness—and all of him desirable
I don’t think a name suits here.
4. Old translations
a. LXX:
φάρυγξ αὐτοῦ γλυκασμοὶ καὶ ὅλος ἐπιθυμία, οὗτος ἀδελφιδός μου, καὶ οὗτος πλησίον μου, θυγατέρες Ιερουσαλημ.
Translation:
His throat is most sweet, and altogether desirable. This is my kinsman, and this is my companion, O daughters of Jerusalem.
b. Aramaic Targum:
מליה על מוריגא מתיקן כדובשא וכל פקודי רגיגן על חכימוי מדהב ״וכסף״ דין הוא תשבחתיה דאלהא רחימי ודין הוא תקוף חוסניה דמרי חביבי נבייא דמתנבאין בירושלם
Translation:
“The words of His palate are as sweet as honey, and all His commandments are more desirable to His sages than gold and silver. This is the praise of God, my Beloved, and this is the power of the strength of my Lord, my Beloved, O prophets who prophesy in Jerusalem.”
5. Occurrences of the same word in the OT:
There are 12, I'll pick 3:
Isaiah 64:11
Our holy and our beautiful house, where our fathers praised thee, is burned up with fire: and all our pleasant things are laid waste.
בֵּ֧ית קָדְשֵׁ֣נוּ וְתִפְאַרְתֵּ֗נוּ אֲשֶׁ֤ר הִֽלְל֙וּךָ֙ אֲבֹתֵ֔ינוּ הָיָ֖ה לִשְׂרֵ֣פַת אֵ֑שׁ וְכָל־ מַחֲמַדֵּ֖ינוּ הָיָ֥ה לְחָרְבָּֽה
2 Chronicles 36:19
And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof.
וַֽיִּשְׂרְפוּ֙ אֶת־ בֵּ֣ית הָאֱלֹהִ֔ים וַֽיְנַתְּצ֔וּ אֵ֖ת חוֹמַ֣ת יְרוּשָׁלִָ֑ם וְכָל־ אַרְמְנוֹתֶ֙יהָ֙ שָׂרְפ֣וּ בָאֵ֔שׁ וְכָל־ כְּלֵ֥י מַחֲמַדֶּ֖יהָ לְהַשְׁחִֽית
Lamentations 2:4
He hath bent his bow like an enemy: he stood with his right hand as an adversary, and slew all that were pleasant to the eye in the tabernacle of the daughter of Zion: he poured out his fury like fire.
דָּרַ֨ךְ קַשְׁתּ֜וֹ כְּאוֹיֵ֗ב נִצָּ֤ב יְמִינוֹ֙ כְּצָ֔ר וַֽיַּהֲרֹ֔ג כֹּ֖ל מַחֲמַדֵּי־ עָ֑יִן בְּאֹ֙הֶל֙ בַּת־ צִיּ֔וֹן שָׁפַ֥ךְ כָּאֵ֖שׁ חֲמָתֽוֹ
חִכּוֹ֙ מַֽמְתַקִּ֔ים וְכֻלּ֖וֹ מַחֲמַדִּ֑ים זֶ֤ה דוֹדִי֙ וְזֶ֣ה רֵעִ֔י בְּנ֖וֹת יְרוּשָׁלִָֽם׃
KJV:
His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.
1. Pronunciation:
مُحَمَّد : Muḥammad
מַחֲמַדִּ֑ים : ma·ḥă·mad·dîm
2. Meaning:
مُحَمَّد (Muḥammad): Praised
Muhammad (name) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
passive participle of the triconsonantal root of Ḥ-M-D (Praise); hence Praised.
Lane’s Lexicon: A man praised much, or repeatedly, or time after time
מַחֲמַדִּ֑ים (ma·ḥă·mad·dîm): desire, desirable thing
Strong's Hebrew: 4261. ??????? (machmad) -- desire, desirable thing
Strong:
From chamad; delightful; hence, a delight, i.e. Object of affection or desire -- beloved, desire, goodly, lovely, pleasant (thing).
The Hebrew and Aramaic lexicon of the Old Testament:
מַחְמָד
חמד, mḥmd
1 something desirable, precious object
2 what is pleasing to the eyes
Gesenius' Hebrew and Chaldee lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures:
מַחְמָד
constr. מַחְמַד masc. plur. מַחֲמַדִּים from the root חָמַד
1. desire, hence the object of desire.
2. grace, beauty,
3. something precious.
Complete word study dictionary of the Old Testament:
מַחְמָד
A masculine noun indicating a desire, a desirable thing, a precious thing. It indicates whatever is desirable, something one wishes to have, to possess. It is used of things (1Ki 20:6; 2Ch 36:19; Hos 9:6; Joe 3:5 [4:5]); of persons (Son 5:16). It is used especially of what is attractive to the eyes (1Ki 20:6; Eze 24:16, Eze 24:21, Eze 24:25).
3. Context:
Young's literal translation:
חִכּוֹ֙ מַֽמְתַקִּ֔ים וְכֻלּ֖וֹ מַחֲמַדִּ֑ים
His mouth is sweetness—and all of him desirable
I don’t think a name suits here.
4. Old translations
a. LXX:
φάρυγξ αὐτοῦ γλυκασμοὶ καὶ ὅλος ἐπιθυμία, οὗτος ἀδελφιδός μου, καὶ οὗτος πλησίον μου, θυγατέρες Ιερουσαλημ.
Translation:
His throat is most sweet, and altogether desirable. This is my kinsman, and this is my companion, O daughters of Jerusalem.
b. Aramaic Targum:
מליה על מוריגא מתיקן כדובשא וכל פקודי רגיגן על חכימוי מדהב ״וכסף״ דין הוא תשבחתיה דאלהא רחימי ודין הוא תקוף חוסניה דמרי חביבי נבייא דמתנבאין בירושלם
Translation:
“The words of His palate are as sweet as honey, and all His commandments are more desirable to His sages than gold and silver. This is the praise of God, my Beloved, and this is the power of the strength of my Lord, my Beloved, O prophets who prophesy in Jerusalem.”
5. Occurrences of the same word in the OT:
There are 12, I'll pick 3:
Isaiah 64:11
Our holy and our beautiful house, where our fathers praised thee, is burned up with fire: and all our pleasant things are laid waste.
בֵּ֧ית קָדְשֵׁ֣נוּ וְתִפְאַרְתֵּ֗נוּ אֲשֶׁ֤ר הִֽלְל֙וּךָ֙ אֲבֹתֵ֔ינוּ הָיָ֖ה לִשְׂרֵ֣פַת אֵ֑שׁ וְכָל־ מַחֲמַדֵּ֖ינוּ הָיָ֥ה לְחָרְבָּֽה
2 Chronicles 36:19
And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof.
וַֽיִּשְׂרְפוּ֙ אֶת־ בֵּ֣ית הָאֱלֹהִ֔ים וַֽיְנַתְּצ֔וּ אֵ֖ת חוֹמַ֣ת יְרוּשָׁלִָ֑ם וְכָל־ אַרְמְנוֹתֶ֙יהָ֙ שָׂרְפ֣וּ בָאֵ֔שׁ וְכָל־ כְּלֵ֥י מַחֲמַדֶּ֖יהָ לְהַשְׁחִֽית
Lamentations 2:4
He hath bent his bow like an enemy: he stood with his right hand as an adversary, and slew all that were pleasant to the eye in the tabernacle of the daughter of Zion: he poured out his fury like fire.
דָּרַ֨ךְ קַשְׁתּ֜וֹ כְּאוֹיֵ֗ב נִצָּ֤ב יְמִינוֹ֙ כְּצָ֔ר וַֽיַּהֲרֹ֔ג כֹּ֖ל מַחֲמַדֵּי־ עָ֑יִן בְּאֹ֙הֶל֙ בַּת־ צִיּ֔וֹן שָׁפַ֥ךְ כָּאֵ֖שׁ חֲמָתֽוֹ
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Very nice. So in another words, instead of translating it as a name, they just translated the meaning of the name. Every name in Arabic has a meaning. Hypothetically speaking, if a girls name is "Wardah" (which means a rose), or one can translate its meaning and say "no its not a person", and essentially never end up giving names and translating the meanings instead.
Now imagine if that is done by the police if they had to translate documents with such names.
Also (again), in Arabic, the Qur'aan refers to prophet Muhammad as both Muhammad and Ahmad. Both revolving around/derived from the root word Hmd. This is how words and names can be used in Arabic.
I've addressed the meanings of both words, which are different:
The prophet of Islam:
مُحَمَّد (Muḥammad): Praised
The word in Songs 5:16:
מַחֲמַדִּ֑ים (ma·ḥă·mad·dîm): desire, desirable thing
But try reading the rest of the points in my post.
Well clearly, name named their sons after prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, and this is why its popular today. However, before Islam, it wasnt nearly as popular and besides that, theres not one that came with a scripture calling to God etc.
I admit I dont know Hebrew, but looking at jews-for-allah.org , it says the spelling of the word is like this.
They add, however "Now, when writing in Hebrew, there is no difference between the word mahmad (
It also states that according to Ben Yehuda's Hebrew-English Dictionary, is correctly pronounced "mahamad"
Then when they added vowels later on, non existant in original Hebrew, it looks like this
A part of a description of prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was "He was from afar the most beautiful of men and the most glorious, and close up he was the sweetest and the loveliest. He was sweet of speech and articulate, but not petty or trifling. His speech was a string of cascading pearls, measured so that none despaired of its length.”
This hadîth is related by al-Hâkim in al-Mustadrak (3/9-10), al-Tabarânî in al-Mu`jam al-Kabîr (3605), Abû Nu`aym in Dalâ’il al-Nubuwwah (282-278), and al-Lâlikâ’î in I`tiqâd Ahl al-Sunnah (1434-1437).
A learned Jewish Rabbi who became Muslim at the time of prophet Muhammad, (Ibn Salam) said that when he heard of prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, "I began to make enquiries about his name, his genealogy, his characteristics, his time and place and I began to compare this information with what is contained in our books." and that "his face wasnt one of an impostor" , and when he accepted Islam, his aunt got angry "When my aunt heard me, she remonstrated with me: “May God frustrate you... By God, if you had heard that Moses was coming you would not have been more enthusiastic.”
“Auntie, he is really, by God, the ‘brother’ of Moses and follows his religion. He was sent with the same mission as Moses.” She was silent for a while and then said: “Is he the Prophet about whom you spoke to us who would be sent to confirm the truth preached by previous (Prophets) and complete the message of his Lord?”
“Yes,” I replied, he said. This was after he had met the prophet and asked him questions on the day of judgement, and other questions, and then accepted instantly.
Anyway I certainly cant say he was referring to this verse specifically or any other one for that matter. I dont know.. Sorry if I deviated a little from the original topic.
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Quite frankly, knowing Arabic, I know how it can be very tricky/hard/challenging when translating to English. Especially with so many concepts that dont exist in the English language at all, making some translations "the best possible ones" but not really accurate. So in a case like this, I think the only way to really understand, is to know Hebrew. I dont, so my arguments can only go so far.
The farthest I can go is what I stated in the previous post, as the spelling is identical in Hebrew, according to Jews-for-Allah.org, which mentions that vowels were introduced later on and were never a part of the original Hebrew. Right? Wrong? I dont know. I already believe in Islam and dont feel any possible translation of this verse would mean much to me. But if the above statement about vowels is accurate, id say it was mistranslated (not necessarily intentionally).
Even when reading about Quranic verses, I never rely on any English translation and go back to the Arabic, even though many those who translated were known talented linguists.
I used references for the meanings of both words.
If you have another meaning of محمد, please get it, even if it is in Arabic.
By the way, I know Arabic too.
As I showed before, the same word is used in other locations in the OT.
Read point 6:
(laid waste, destroyed, slain).
Do you want to put Muhammed's name in these verses?
Isaiah 64:11
Our holy and our beautiful house, where our fathers praised thee, is burned up with fire: and all our pleasant things are laid waste.
בֵּ֧ית קָדְשֵׁ֣נוּ וְתִפְאַרְתֵּ֗נוּ אֲשֶׁ֤ר הִֽלְל֙וּךָ֙ אֲבֹתֵ֔ינוּ הָיָ֖ה לִשְׂרֵ֣פַת אֵ֑שׁ וְכָל־ מַחֲמַדֵּ֖ינוּ הָיָ֥ה לְחָרְבָּֽה
2 Chronicles 36:19
And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof.
וַֽיִּשְׂרְפוּ֙ אֶת־ בֵּ֣ית הָאֱלֹהִ֔ים וַֽיְנַתְּצ֔וּ אֵ֖ת חוֹמַ֣ת יְרוּשָׁלִָ֑ם וְכָל־ אַרְמְנוֹתֶ֙יהָ֙ שָׂרְפ֣וּ בָאֵ֔שׁ וְכָל־ כְּלֵ֥י מַחֲמַדֶּ֖יהָ לְהַשְׁחִֽית
Lamentations 2:4
He hath bent his bow like an enemy: he stood with his right hand as an adversary, and slew all that were pleasant to the eye in the tabernacle of the daughter of Zion: he poured out his fury like fire.
דָּרַ֨ךְ קַשְׁתּ֜וֹ כְּאוֹיֵ֗ב נִצָּ֤ב יְמִינוֹ֙ כְּצָ֔ר וַֽיַּהֲרֹ֔ג כֹּ֖ל מַחֲמַדֵּי־ עָ֑יִן בְּאֹ֙הֶל֙ בַּת־ צִיּ֔וֹן שָׁפַ֥ךְ כָּאֵ֖שׁ חֲמָתֽוֹ
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
Apparently its stained with sound logic. but as a Hebrew speaker with some knowledge of Arabic, I find the whole show about this amusing. what's more amusing is no one needs to know Hebrew or Arabic to understand how absurd and desperate the claim that Muhammad appears in the Bible, because... *dramatic drums*... two Semitic languages share commonalities.
your points are simple and correct. one is that the Hebrew variation of the word is found all over the Bible.
also I find it ironic that Muslims choose this specific case and not others, considering the Song of Solomon is an Erotic love song. it talks about the love of a man for a woman, allegorical to the love of God to his people Israel. a man from Arabia of the 7th century is no where to be found there. maybe in the Biblical description of the woman's physique?
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ِAlthough some translations of
And how do you spell Muhammad محمد in Hebrew? That verse spells Muhammad exactly how is written in Hebrew before vowels were ever added.
So the question is, was the word meant to by a name (having the exact same spelling) while they just translated the meaning of the name? Or not? With my limited knowledge of Hebrew I have to say "I dont know". Looking at the context, theres a description, then at the end of it, theres a name of who the description is talking about. So I think it makes sense.
Could it make sense translating the meaning of the name and not consider it a name? Sure, I can agree with that as a possibility. But I cant say this verse doesnt mention the name because it certainly does.
That said, whether it was meant to be a name or not, it doesnt mean much to me since im already a believer in Islam and think most texts/manuscripts were tampered with and/or mistranslated anyway. Its more relevant to those who believe in them as authentic.
So you're changing your mind about the meaning...
I think my post was simple enough, but I'll try to make it easier for you.
Since you said you know Arabic, the Arabic SVD translation is:
حلقه حلاوة وكله مشتهيات
Trying to put Mohammed's name in كله محمد makes no sense, and is laughable and desperate.
That's why I used YLT, so I could show this in English.
But why don't you put it in the verses where it is destroyed, laid waste and slain?
Im not changing my mind about the meaning, im just trying to sum it up and not allow diverting the topic from the main most important point in it, in my opinion which the simple fact that is being dodged and avoided which is that in Hebrew, it spells Muhammad, letter by letter, and its exactly how Muhammad is spelled in Hebrew.
It is your assumption (whether correct or not), that in order for a name to be translated as a name, the meaning of the name in two different languages, Hebrew and Arabic, must be the same. This, I personally dont accept as valid.
Furthermore, what makes no sense to me is taking translations as the main reference while the point of discussion to begin with, is should the names meaning be translated from Hebrew, or should it be taken as a name.
How they translated it in English or Arabic or Chinese is irrelevant. I could translate صادفني سرور "I happened to meet Suroor" could be translated to "I met/faced happiness". And both are correct, because suroor means happiness.
These are facts. Not opinions. Thats why in my previous post I said
Could it make sense translating the meaning of the name and not consider it a name? Sure, I can agree with that as a possibility. But I cant say this verse doesnt mention the name because it certainly does, and letter by letter.
No need to get defensive because a statement like that. Its you who isnt accepting the FACT, that in Hebrew, letter by letter, it spells Muhammad. While on the other hand, I accepted the possibility of translating the meaning of the name, being correct, and you eliminate the possibility, and im not sure on what basis.
There is one point that you mention, that I accept as relevant. Which is other usages of the same word. To me, this is relevant, but not definitive evidence for anything, especially that in languages like Arabic (and probably Hebrew) words can have many, many meanings and usages.
Again, that said, whether the word in this verse in particular, was meant to be a name or not. I dont know. If you think you do actually know, then hey, all power to you. In the end to me it doesnt mean much since im already a believer in Islam and think most texts/manuscripts were tampered with and/or mistranslated anyway. Its more relevant to those who believe in them as authentic. If they choose to not look into the original word at all, hey, its their beliefs, and their lives.
But the fact that cannot be disputed, is that it spells Muhammad, letter by letter, and thats a fact, and not an opinion. Interpretation is up to the reader (who reads it in Hebrew).
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
I don't know what is so astonishing in this. vowels or not, it is not pronounced the same. and even if it was pronounced the same, there is still nothing astonishing about this. the word is in a context of the Song of Solomon, not the Qur'an. unless you really want it to be.
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I already mentioned the literal Arabic translation of this part:
وكله مشتهيات
But you totally ignored it.
Now I'm asking you can you remove مشتهيات and put a name?
In English: "and all of him is ..."
But using سرور in a similar context:
كله سرور
Only translates as: "He's all happy/He is very happy."
Translating it as: "All of him is Suroor" is ridiculous.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
Finally. that was an easy way of capturing the absurdity of this claim.
I know we are giving this issue much more attention than it deserves. but its just dumbfounding why some Muslims will cling to such a claim. its puts the un in unscholarly.
My friend, I addressed this concept in my reply. To repeat, how they translated it to Arabic is irrelevant. What concerns us, is the Hebrew. Your question would be absoloutly correct if applying it to the Hebrew, not the Arabic translation. So the question should be, in Hebrew, can it be a name? From what I can see, I say most certainly.
Do I say that it SHOULD have been be translated as a name? I do not claim that. I only claim that its very possible, but with no certainty. Especially with the context, after a long description, ending it with "He is...". So I think it makes sense. I do not impose my understanding upon others? No, but what I am arguing here, is that up to now, I personally, find that theres nothing that disproves this. I am NOT attempting to disprove the other opinion and say its not possible that its correct.
Yes, thats why I say the context is important.
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