The Soul

[George-ananda]

Do you really think that information about reality (other than about human psychology) can be obtained by introspection?

Yes. You're thinking under the assumption that conciousness is just physical brain activity. Under your assumption the answer would probably be 'No'.

Here's the fundamental difference.

In western thought, the physical is primary and conciousness is a by-product of the physical.

In eastern thought, conciousness is primary and the physical is a creation of conciousness.

So, in eastern thought introspection/meditation by completely calming the intermediate levels the primary conciousness can be experienced and all is experienced as one.

 

[PolyHedral]

The evidence for this view starts with Eastern (Indian) philosophy (Vedic Science). The science describes in detail the construction of the universe beyond our known physical plane/dimensions/level. This science was formulated by the saints/sages/mystics of the eastern world.

I've heard it said that Western Science concerns itself with the external world (like going to the moon) while Eastern Science concerns itself with the internal world (Who am I?).

The sages/mystics found after years and lifetimes of introspection that all is part of the one great conciousness.

Next question should be, why should we accept anything these sages/mystics tell us. First of all the consistancy of their testimony. But secondly, they would say don't take our word for it, explore your own conciousness and determine the validity of our teachings yourself. Now, us novices want the answer in under an hour but the exploration may take years or lifetimes.

Getting back to your original question, I would also add the evidence the westerners mis-label 'paranormal phenomena' including near-death experiences, reincarnational memories, ghosts, spirit correspondences, etc.. In Vedic Science the word 'paranormal' would not really make sense as these phenomenas are normal in the universe-construct they present (with many planes/levels/dimensions beyond this physical one).

The internal world is in the purview of "western" science. More importantly, your "science" is completely unrigorous and possesses zero predictive power.

 

[George-ananda]

The internal world is in the purview of "western" science. More importantly, your "science" is completely unrigorous and possesses zero predictive power.

I fully embrace Western science too.

Well, I think you're missing out on a lot if you think the great sages of India have nothing of value to teach us.

 

[Straw Dog]

The best analogy is that imagine yourself with multiple layers of clothes on. You take off the outer layer and you're still as much you as you always were.

The subtle mental body and astral body interpenetrate the physical body and are what you actually think and feel with. When the physical body dies, you still have a continuation of the same thinking and feeling processes you always had as these processes never did 'originate' in the physical body.

Then why does neuroscience reveal that thoughts and feelings originate in brain activity? Why do you posit this extra dimension? Why have a physical body in the first place if these processes are not dependent upon it? It seems redundant and excessive whenever it can be adequately approached and/or explained without positing an astral dimension.

You'll still be you but with a little lighter feeling with the densest level removed. Thinking and feeling will be more acute. Kind of like writing with gloves and then without gloves.

How do you know this?

 

[George-ananda]

Then why does neuroscience reveal that thoughts and feelings originate in brain activity?

Because current neuroscience can only study the physical layer of man and that's all they can possibly conclude.

When the mental body creates a thought there is corresponding activity in the physical brain. That is what the neuroscientists are seeing. It is bio-chemical activity just following natural laws and is completely neutral to the big picture of the person's life. Kind of like the brain is the computer and the mental body is the user of the computer. My computer is completely neutral to winning or losing an RF debate. But me the user cares .

If you are interested in learning more, even to better understand what you disagree with, the Theosophical Society has some top-notch information. This information is also part of Vedic Science.

Why do you posit this extra dimension?

Because I believe they do exist. My reasoning comes from my study of the eastern (Indian) masters and from my study of paranormal phenomena.

Why have a physical body in the first place if these processes are not dependent upon it?

The whole purpose is so the 'soul' can have direct experiences with the challenges of life on the physical plane.

 

[Sir Doom]

It seems to me that its more likely that the pathways in the brain are structured from birth by continuous input and that the chemicals are merely another recording device of the brain to recognize favorable and unfavorable inputs. Of course, that would mean there might still be a soul, so that'll probably get rejected by someone.

 

[apophenia]

The weird thing about the brain, currently unexplained, is that different regions become active simultaneously during some processes, and yet they are not linked in any way known.

 

[Thief]

It seems we have gone far enough in description.....now choose.

If you have a soul speak of it as your own and what will happen to it
when you die.

If you do not have a soul.....I don't think you have a dog in this fight.

 

[Straw Dog]

Because current neuroscience can only study the physical layer of man and that's all they can possibly conclude.

When the mental body creates a thought there is corresponding activity in the physical brain. That is what the neuroscientists are seeing. It is bio-chemical activity just following natural laws and is completely neutral to the big picture of the person's life. Kind of like the brain is the computer and the mental body is the user of the computer. My computer is completely neutral to winning or losing an RF debate. But me the user cares .

If you are interested in learning more, even to better understand what you disagree with, the Theosophical Society has some top-notch information. This information is also part of Vedic Science.

Interesting. What makes Vedic Science different from normal science? Does it not follow the scientific method or rely on peer review?

Because I believe they do exist. My reasoning comes from my study of the eastern (Indian) masters and from my study of paranormal phenomena.

I agree that there is wisdom to be learned by studying sages from the east and the west. I just don't believe their perceptions of Reality are perfect or that they are incapable of making mistakes. They were just human after all.

It was also a different era before the advent of modern science so they really didn't begin to understand the depth and complexity actually involved in existence. Also, physicalism isn't the same as materialism. I agree that there's much more to existence that just matter.

The whole purpose is so the 'soul' can have direct experiences with the challenges of life on the physical plane.

Why does the soul have to have direct experiences of physical life? What benefit does this offer?

I guess I just don't see sufficient reason to adopt such beliefs. It deals with abstract notions beyond my experiences and sphere of knowledge. I do feel I have sufficient reason to believe that physical reality is all the reality that there is and nothing seems to contradict it so far in the sciences. If new evidence comes to light, I'm more than willing to reassess my views.

 

[Thief]

Interesting. What makes Vedic Science different from normal science? Does it not follow the scientific method or rely on peer review?



I agree that there is wisdom to be learned by studying sages from the east and the west. I just don't believe their perceptions of Reality are perfect or that they are incapable of making mistakes. They were just human after all.

It was also a different era before the advent of modern science so they really didn't begin to understand the depth and complexity actually involved in existence. Also, physicalism isn't the same as materialism. I agree that there's much more to existence that just matter.



Why does the soul have to have direct experiences of physical life? What benefit does this offer?

I guess I just don't see sufficient reason to adopt such beliefs. It deals with abstract notions beyond my experiences and sphere of knowledge. I do feel I have sufficient reason to believe that physical reality is all the reality that there is and nothing seems to contradict it so far in the sciences. If new evidence comes to light, I'm more than willing to reassess my views.

Hey look!...there is a dog in this fight!
(sorry...I couldn't help myself)