The spirit problem

[Aqualung]

I don't know when it starts. I doubt that it starts at conception, since losing a fertilized egg before it can implant is more common than most people realize (along with miscarriages only a few days into pregnancy).

I'd say, yes, there are souls. I think it "starts" when God knows the egg will be born. For me and for anybody else who has ever been born, that was at fertilisation. But He probably doesn't go giving souls to every fertilised egg, because some of them don't make it very far.

 

[flupke]

I would say we don't know when the "soul" or "spirit" enters the physical body, be it egg and sperm or infant at birth.

It's my opinion, however, that it doesn't matter. Regardless of when the spirit enters the body, the physical body is a "temple" for that spirit and has the potential to progress. To kill this body is wrong, in my opinion, even if the spirit hasn't entered it yet.

I'm trying to show that there are inconsistencies, and that there is an issue. Saying "It doesn't matter" is turning your head away from an important issue. For example, if you think it could happen 'at birth', then you're assuming that a 8-month old baby that just came out of the womb is more predisposed to having a soul/spirit than a 8.5-month old unborn baby. What would be the rationale for that ? Why would physical location (inside or outside of the womb) have anything to do with the soul ? If you say it might come in at a particular time before, then I can formulate similar problems.
And, where does the soul come from ? You're stating that the soul already existed.

 

[Katzpur]

Many religions (all of them ?) believe in spirits or souls.

Some questions:

Does a fertilized egg cell have a soul ?
Do sperms and egg cells already have pre-souls that merge upon conception ?
Does the soul only 'hop in' at birth ? If yes, that means we can kill fetuses without scrutiny.

If I take a fertilized egg cell out of a womb and let it divide a couple of times, mix up the blastula (lump of cells capable of forming a human being) and re-implant the 64 cells in different wombs, did I just create 63 extra souls ? Am I God ?

Needless to say I don't accept souls or spirits; but I'm curious to see how believers deal with this issue (other than "god will figure it out").

My own belief is that a "living soul" is a physical body infused with spirit. I believe -- and I recognize that most Christians would disagree with me on this point -- that God created our spirits long before we were ever born (as in billions of years). I believe that we existed in spirit form (i.e. as conscious entities without a physical body) prior to our mortal lives and lived at that time in God's presence. I'm not even sure what my Church's official position is (if we have one) as to when the spirit enters into an embryo or fetus. But since I see the spirit part of me as being eternal in nature, it doesn't matter a whole lot to me whether it's at conception or birth.

 

[dawny0826]

Many religions (all of them ?) believe in spirits or souls.

Some questions:

Does a fertilized egg cell have a soul ?
Do sperms and egg cells already have pre-souls that merge upon conception ?
Does the soul only 'hop in' at birth ? If yes, that means we can kill fetuses without scrutiny.

If I take a fertilized egg cell out of a womb and let it divide a couple of times, mix up the blastula (lump of cells capable of forming a human being) and re-implant the 64 cells in different wombs, did I just create 63 extra souls ? Am I God ?

Needless to say I don't accept souls or spirits; but I'm curious to see how believers deal with this issue (other than "god will figure it out").

To be honest, I think our souls have always been...and always will be...we just have this opportunity at life to make the choice as to where our souls will go after this...

 

[Katzpur]

To be honest, I think our souls have always been...and always will be...we just have this opportunity at life to make the choice as to where our souls will go after this...

Very scary, dawny... Sounds very LDS to me.

 

[dawny0826]

Very scary, dawny... Sounds very LDS to me.

LOL! Well, you know...I've always said, I'm not bound to any particular religion...

...and I think it was the kind LDS on this site who kindly and gently pointed out to me that really aren't all that different...all God's children in Christ.

 

[flupke]

My own belief is that a "living soul" is a physical body infused with spirit. I believe -- and I recognize that most Christians would disagree with me on this point -- that God created our spirits long before we were ever born (as in billions of years). I believe that we existed in spirit form (i.e. as conscious entities without a physical body) prior to our mortal lives and lived at that time in God's presence. I'm not even sure what my Church's official position is (if we have one) as to when the spirit enters into an embryo or fetus. But since I see the spirit part of me as being eternal in nature, it doesn't matter a whole lot to me whether it's at conception or birth.

If they were conscious before entering the body, then why is the baby barely conscious ? It doesn't know right from wrong; it takes a while into childhood (some even in adulthood or never at all) to learn about morality.

 

[Katzpur]

If they were conscious before entering the body, then why is the baby barely conscious ? It doesn't know right from wrong; it takes a while into childhood (some even in adulthood or never at all) to learn about morality.

We believe that our memory of our premortal life is erased at birth. We also believe that knowledge of right and wrong come only as a child matures and does not exist at birth. But, to me, the spirit is more than knowledge or consciousness. It's the essence of who we are.

 

[Master Vigil]

I'm confused on one point. Is the energy which flows through copper wiring also spirit? Or just chemical energy involved in the growth of life forms?

Spirit? Yes, I believe so. All energy is spirit.

If so, is it all part of one unified spiritual force?

Absolutely. I call that force Tao. Some may call it god. The word isn't what's important.

Chemical energy in the form of ATP (made by oxidative fosforylation) and ion-gradients are what drives most biological processes, including the fusion of cells. Are you saying that 'souls' are that type of energy ?
If you say yes, then I think you're a scientist, not a spiritualist

That type and all types yes. And yes I'm a scientis, but I also believe in our ability to "spiritually" become in tuned with this energy, and understand it. So I am still a spiritualist, but I call myself a Vigil. And I attribute this method to Pulsus, Chi Gong, and any other "chi" work. So I am a Taoist.

 

[flupke]

We believe that our memory of our premortal life is erased at birth. We also believe that knowledge of right and wrong come only as a child matures and does not exist at birth. But, to me, the spirit is more than knowledge or consciousness. It's the essence of who we are.

You must mean more than just erasing of memory; the 'morality standards' are then also erased in your reasoning. And since we're all losing memory as we age, this would mean the spirit, after leaving the body upon death, has no memory again. Must be pretty surprising to find yourself in hell all of sudden without knowing why !
(although I remember you maybe don't believe in hell ?)

 

[flupke]

That type and all types yes. And yes I'm a scientis, but I also believe in our ability to "spiritually" become in tuned with this energy, and understand it. So I am still a spiritualist, but I call myself a Vigil. And I attribute this method to Pulsus, Chi Gong, and any other "chi" work. So I am a Taoist.

How do "I", who is all chemical energy, come "in tune" with that energy, if I already am the energy itself ? What does "in tune" mean ?

 

[Master Vigil]

How do "I", who is all chemical energy, come "in tune" with that energy, if I already am the energy itself ? What does "in tune" mean ?

Through meditation, and meditative exercises. And of course, being "VIgil." (hence my username).

"in tune" to me, means that I am able to mold my energy vibrations to that of the energy in nature. It is an understanding, and a oneness.

 

[Toad]

I've had ghostly unexplainable encounters, so I tend to believe at least something is left behind as a remnant. Humans and cats.
(what do cats look at when they watch nothing moving around on the wall?)

I also think it possible that this energy grows as the person does, when self awareness is realised?
Or were these things that I thought I saw or heard, but didn't, yet did.

I also have experienced pre-cognition, a feeling of knowing absolute about the near future. What is that? Do our brainwaves detect something outside of time?

I've also saw an Unidentified.F.O

So, If you've experienced these types of things, but believe they are things of the Universe, not necessarily a god, you become an agnostic, like me.

We are all products of the Universe, I also tend to think that the Universe always existed, if the big bang is true, is it only one of many as far as I'm concerned, there is no limit to space, it's possible.

 

[cardero]

I would say that the soul needs to keep an appointment and fuses at the time of birth.

The nine months development process is the human becoming and is nature at work.
No personality or individualism can be discerned.
To use an illustration, a performer does not go on stage before an empty audience or while the scenery is being set up.

Flupke writes: Does the soul only 'hop in' at birth ? If yes, that means we can kill fetuses without scrutiny.

The following question was submitted by cannie1

Q: Dear GOD

Abortion. What do you think?



A: I K(NOW) you cannot discontinue the existence of a soul through the act of abortion. The human shell may BE destroyed, but the entity that was planned to occupy it is not. Any entities that choose to incarnate into the physical realm do not incarnate into a body that is planned for termination. REMEMBER that ALL matter can BE modified, created, and destroyed, but the soul remains forever, if that is what it desires.



HELLO IT’S ME: An Interview With GOD

Chapter: Dear GOD

Pg: 227

 

[Green Gaia]

Many religions (all of them ?) believe in spirits or souls.

No, not all do.

Does a fertilized egg cell have a soul ?

I don't know.

Do sperms and egg cells already have pre-souls that merge upon conception?

I would think not, but again, I don't know.

Does the soul only 'hop in' at birth ?

I don't know.

If yes, that means we can kill fetuses without scrutiny.

No, it doesn't.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I do apologize. I saw " There is Scripture to suggest that souls come from the father;" and thought that it thus meant that souls were a patrilineal thing. (Also, just to clarify, the last part of the post was not directed as a reference to the scripture. I was trying to add that I think that we all share a bit of Divinity.)

Again, I'm sorry that I did not understand the difference. Thank you for clearing it up!

There is also some scripture that might suggest that there is some divinity in all of us.

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." Psalms 82:6 KJV

I've never really done a complete study of this for myself but others use this to make those suggestion and right now I know of nothing to contridict that thought.

 

[Katzpur]

You must mean more than just erasing of memory; the 'morality standards' are then also erased in your reasoning.

You could probably say that. We are, according to LDS doctrine, born without sin. On the other hand, we are born with a propensity to sin.

And since we're all losing memory as we age, this would mean the spirit, after leaving the body upon death, has no memory again. Must be pretty surprising to find yourself in hell all of sudden without knowing why ! (although I remember you maybe don't believe in hell ?)

I don't know about you, but I fully expect to have retained some of what I learn throughout my life. You're assuming that I believe that a disembodied spirit (one that leaves the body at death) loses its memory. I've said nothing of the sort.

 

[Avi]

If they don't interact or depend on one another, then where is your soul ? On Mars ?
If they're independent, then how could you KNOW (physical process) anything about it ?

Once again, where one's soul is, is a non-issue. It doesn't have to be anywhere in the physical universal. I don't "know" my soul, persay; similar to how language, however accurate, represents a concept. The soul requires that same blind acceptance of existence and our participatory status.

I suppose, we aren't totally disconnected from our souls, as far as to affect it by what we do. Our choices, our actions, events all affect one's spiritual self, no matter how incomprehensive that change may be.

 

[draqon_of_white_seas]

Well. I believe that the soul does not start from anywhere, it awakens... In a sense, I remember when I was a baby, I used to have awakenings, and then it was like I was sleeping, whereas when I asked my mom, I apparently was not sleeping at that time. Its like I was on "automatic". For example I remember myself on a hill, surrounded by tall grass, and somewhere down there was a river. And that image is all that I remember. My mom tells me thou that they were looking for me and found me amongst many ants, and that I was looking at them ants, not afraid in any sense. Well I have no recollection of that whatsoever...so what I believe is that the fact that I do not remember myself in this situation does not mean that "I do not remember" that, but rather means that I did not have control over-myself at that time, sort of sleeping soul but awaken body. So in terms of soul, I believe if you were to graph soul as a function over time, the function would be exponential. This function would represent the percent of control the soul has over the body as y-axis over time as x-axis. and you would have the function be an exponential starting from infinity approaching 0, growing to 100% and never approaching it, then decreasing once we get close to death, exponentially decreasing and once again approaching close to 0, but never touching it. And that is my interpretation of soul.

 

[draqon_of_white_seas]

the vertex of that function of soul would be the time of love has the greatest sense.