The Standard of Truth + False Signs

[Sky Rivers]

I've been wondering lately if the Bible is truly without error. It's been translated many times and these translations different. If it's not without error, how can it be a standard or measure for truth? How can the liars and those deceived be found out? If there is no measure for what is true, anyone can claim anything about God?

Furthermore if the Bible IS without error or sufficiently preserved to be correct, even in other languages, or even in just the AKJV, are Bible-Believing Christians making this book into an idol?

While I currently do accept scripture as my measure of truth, I only do so because I lack an acceptable alternative. If the Holy Spirit should be what I test all things by (the Word of God), how can I (without great signs which I should not seek) know if I am measuring by the Holy Spirit or if I'm simply deceived? Do I trust visions? Feelings? Dreams? Do any of us? Perhaps all the signs stopped and all signs today are false (as prophecy states)? How then can we measure anything by the Holy Spirit of we don't even have signs to know he indwells us?

 

[ManSinha]

I am hardly the most appropriate person to comment - but a casual google search reveals a plethora of articles on the subject. Take a look here - as part of my hobby I was looking for a statement comparable to something found in my scripture and there are subtle nuances even as you look through between NIV, ESV and NLT. While someone may argue that the underlying message is maintained rightfully so - but the degree of emphasis changes. Now this is just english - once gets to Aramaic and Ancient Greek - I have no idea what if anything was altered partly due to what the translators knew and partly due to unconscious bias.

There is also some literature out there that several articles / manuscripts were destroyed as it had teachings / material not considered to be supportive of the main ideas in the bible - perhaps @sooda can elaborate - so your point is well taken. Not sure I have a good answer for you at the moment

 

[joe1776]

I've been wondering lately if the Bible is truly without error...

Bear in mind that this piece of advice comes from a non-believer.

In order to judge the Bible's accuracy, you need to have a way of knowing the truth about something and then see what the Bible has to say about it. It happens that we all know the truth on moral issues provided our minds are unbiased. For example, what does your conscience tell you about slavery? Is it morally wrong to own people as property? Ask and answer questions like this and then see what the Bible has to say about it.

Should women be treated equally to men?
Should homosexuals be treated equally to heterosexuals?

 

[Sky Rivers]

Bear in mind that this piece of advice comes from a non-believer.

In order to judge the Bible's accuracy, you need to have a way of knowing the truth about something and then see what the Bible has to say about it. It happens that we all know the truth on moral issues provided our minds are unbiased. For example, what does your conscience tell you about slavery? Is it morally wrong to own people? Ask and answer questions like this and then see what the Bible has to say about it.

Should women be treated equally to men?
Should homosexuals be treated equally to heterosexuals?

I think an understanding of "slavery" and "slaves" in the context of Biblical history should gained before one considers what is and isn't moral about it.

Furthermore, women aren't men and shouldn't be treated as men. Does this mean women are less and should be treated as less? No. Women simply aren't men and also, scripture doesn't declare that women are less and should be treated as less than men.

Lastly, we are to love our neighbor as ourself. Homosexuals aren't excluded from that. Does that make homosexuality "okay" or something we should tolerate without a word against it? No. Does it mean we should support gay marriage? No because marriage is between a man and a woman, not between two men or two women. Does it mean we should accept gay adoption? No. Loving someone doesn't mean giving them support for their sin, much less bringing children into it.

 

[joe1776]

I think an understanding of "slavery" and "slaves" in the context of Biblical history should gained before one considers what is and isn't moral about it.

Why? The practice of slavery involved the ownership of people against their will to be free then as it does now.

 

[Nakosis]

I've been wondering lately if the Bible is truly without error. It's been translated many times and these translations different. If it's not without error, how can it be a standard or measure for truth? How can the liars and those deceived be found out? If there is no measure for what is true, anyone can claim anything about God?

Furthermore if the Bible IS without error or sufficiently preserved to be correct, even in other languages, or even in just the AKJV, are Bible-Believing Christians making this book into an idol?

While I currently do accept scripture as my measure of truth, I only do so because I lack an acceptable alternative. If the Holy Spirit should be what I test all things by (the Word of God), how can I (without great signs which I should not seek) know if I am measuring by the Holy Spirit or if I'm simply deceived? Do I trust visions? Feelings? Dreams? Do any of us? Perhaps all the signs stopped and all signs today are false (as prophecy states)? How then can we measure anything by the Holy Spirit of we don't even have signs to know he indwells us?

Sermon on the mount: “All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them.”

Mosaic law: “Whatever is hurtful to you, do not do to any other person.”

While I don't think this is the best way to go about things, I think it is a really good start.

Lot of folks to lie to you and often you won't know. Lot of people who sincerely believe they know the truth but don't really will try to convince you that they do. Likely you will often trust the wrong people many times. Don't beat yourself up over it, we all do. Just learn from your mistakes so you can do better next time.

Can you really rely on the Bible when even those claiming to know the truth about it can't even agree among themselves? IMO there are so many ways to interpret the Bible and there's no way to guarantee any specific way is the right way. Ultimately one is left to rely on their own conscience anyway.

 

[Nakosis]

Why? The practice of slavery involved the ownership of people against their will to be free then as it does now.

While I agree with you, from the standpoint of a Christian, ex-Christian in my case, to understand the Bible, what is written in it, one needs to understand the morality of those who wrote it.

We don't all share the same morals and what we culturally see as moral changes over time.

It's an interesting question though, without the Bible or God being that one is an expert at neither, or one simply doesn't believe in either, what standard for truth should be employed?

 

[Audie]

I've been wondering lately if the Bible is truly without error. It's been translated many times and these translations different. If it's not without error, how can it be a standard or measure for truth? How can the liars and those deceived be found out? If there is no measure for what is true, anyone can claim anything about God?

Furthermore if the Bible IS without error or sufficiently preserved to be correct, even in other languages, or even in just the AKJV, are Bible-Believing Christians making this book into an idol?

While I currently do accept scripture as my measure of truth, I only do so because I lack an acceptable alternative. If the Holy Spirit should be what I test all things by (the Word of God), how can I (without great signs which I should not seek) know if I am measuring by the Holy Spirit or if I'm simply deceived? Do I trust visions? Feelings? Dreams? Do any of us? Perhaps all the signs stopped and all signs today are false (as prophecy states)? How then can we measure anything by the Holy Spirit of we don't even have signs to know he indwells us?

Depends what you mean by an error.
Daniel in the Lions Den, Samson and Delilah,
Tower of Babel, Adam and Eve etc, are
perfectly good stories.

If you had a time machine, and went back to
watch, I much doubt you'd find those events.

No error in telling a good story.

How about mismatched numbers from one account
to another? Who cares?

How about the size of things, measure in cubits?
The is error in the precision of the finest watch
parts made today. Measurements have built in error.

Error in the cure for snakebite? yeah, I'd say so.

Another sort of error would be if the entire
supernatural part simply is not so.

What is a "measure of truth"? Kind of an odd
concept, what is it?

Is it like, if the bible says it is is true, if someone
says it is not true, then go with the bible?

 

[Nakosis]

What is a "measure of truth"? Kind of an odd
concept, what is it?

Is it like, if the bible says it is is true, if someone
says it is not true, then go with the bible?

I don't think I'd know how to use the Bible as a "measure of truth". It'd be like someone makes a statement, wait, let me go check the Bible?

The Bible has stories, wisdom, commandments. Maybe you read the story and learn some wisdom from the story but it seems to me you are still left to your own devices/discernment to determine the truth.

Someone tells me they had a conversation with a donkey... Well Balaam had a conversation with a donkey in the Bible, so it must be true?

 

[sun rise]

ow can I (without great signs which I should not seek) know if I am measuring by the Holy Spirit or if I'm simply deceived? Do I trust visions? Feelings? Dreams? Do any of us? Perhaps all the signs stopped and all signs today are false (as prophecy states)? How then can we measure anything by the Holy Spirit of we don't even have signs to know he indwells us?

We all are human and make mistakes. We have minds which chatter on and on. To me what counts is our aspiration. If we are dedicated to the Truth, we will sooner or later find ourselves with the Truth.

We can ask ourselves if we're being honest, loving and so forth. And we can learn from times when we miss the mark as we all do. That to me are the signposts.

 

[Father Heathen]

You have to be honest with yourself. Take a step back and examine things objectively. You have to ask yourself "Is this substantiated by evidence?", "Is this rational?", "Does this genuinely resonate with me?", "Can I look myself in the mirror and say that this is conscionable?".

 

[joe1776]

While I agree with you, from the standpoint of a Christian, ex-Christian in my case, to understand the Bible, what is written in it, one needs to understand the morality of those who wrote it.

I don't think so. Bear in mind we are not judging the authors of the Bible as ordinary men. We are judging them on their claim of being divinely-inspired. They're offering God's Word.

Is it more likely that God changed His mind on slavery, the subservience of women and the morality of homosexuality or is it more likely that we humans matured morally while the Bible's scripture on these issues, written by men long ago, became obsolete because it wasn't divinely-inspired moral guidance as claimed?

 

[ManSinha]

I don't think so. Bear in mind we are not judging the authors of the Bible as ordinary men. We are judging them on their claim of being divinely-inspired. They're offering God's Word.

Is it more likely that God changed His mind on slavery, the subservience of women and the morality of homosexuality or is it more likely that we humans matured morally while the Bible's scripture on these issues, written by men long ago, became obsolete because it wasn't divinely-inspired moral guidance as claimed?

Actually I have gone to the extent of saying that if that sort of "god" showed up today s/he would be hauled off to an insane asylum or tried for crimes against humanity

 

[PureX]

I've been wondering lately if the Bible is truly without error. It's been translated many times and these translations different. If it's not without error, how can it be a standard or measure for truth? How can the liars and those deceived be found out? If there is no measure for what is true, anyone can claim anything about God?

Furthermore if the Bible IS without error or sufficiently preserved to be correct, even in other languages, or even in just the AKJV, are Bible-Believing Christians making this book into an idol?

While I currently do accept scripture as my measure of truth, I only do so because I lack an acceptable alternative. If the Holy Spirit should be what I test all things by (the Word of God), how can I (without great signs which I should not seek) know if I am measuring by the Holy Spirit or if I'm simply deceived? Do I trust visions? Feelings? Dreams? Do any of us? Perhaps all the signs stopped and all signs today are false (as prophecy states)? How then can we measure anything by the Holy Spirit of we don't even have signs to know he indwells us?

The "Holy Spirit" exists within you. It's not a collection of ancient religious texts in a book. All the Bible can do for you is help you to find that spirit within, to recognize it, and maybe to act according to it's inspirations. The texts are meant to be read and contemplated, and even argued with and debated on occasion, for the purpose of helping us find that spirit within. And for the purpose of learning how to act on it in our lives.

It's not really that hard. Jesus exemplified that divine spirit as it was being expressed through his own humanity, for us. It is the spirit of love, forgiveness, generosity, kindness, and compassion. And it inspires us to see God in ourselves, in each other, and in all creation, so that we can love God by loving ourselves, each other, and creation. Such that in each instance in our lives, all we need to do is ask ourselves how our actions would best serve this goal. And then do that. If we are wrong, we are forgiven. And if we have faith in that divine spirit within, we will trust that even though we get it wrong, sometimes, it will all work out in the end.

 

[Skwim]

I've been wondering lately if the Bible is truly without error. It's been translated many times and these translations different. If it's not without error, how can it be a standard or measure for truth? How can the liars and those deceived be found out? If there is no measure for what is true, anyone can claim anything about God?

Furthermore if the Bible IS without error or sufficiently preserved to be correct, even in other languages, or even in just the AKJV, are Bible-Believing Christians making this book into an idol?

While I currently do accept scripture as my measure of truth, I only do so because I lack an acceptable alternative. If the Holy Spirit should be what I test all things by (the Word of God), how can I (without great signs which I should not seek) know if I am measuring by the Holy Spirit or if I'm simply deceived? Do I trust visions? Feelings? Dreams? Do any of us? Perhaps all the signs stopped and all signs today are false (as prophecy states)? How then can we measure anything by the Holy Spirit of we don't even have signs to know he indwells us?

By their very nature, each set of contradictory statements contains at least one false statement, (all of them cannot be correct) which takes on the quality of error.

And there are a lot of such contradictory statements in the Bible, pointing out the fact that the Bible is in error, and many times over. Three examples:

GE 10:5, 20, 31 There were many languages before the Tower of Babel.
Vs
GE 11:1 There was only one language before the Tower of Babel.


1KI 5:16 Solomon had 3,300 supervisors.
Vs
2CH 2:2 He had 3,600 supervisors.


1KI 16:6-8 Baasha died in the 26th year of King Asa's reign.
Vs
2CH 16:1 Baasha built a city in the 36th year of King Asa's reign.​

Then there are the outright mistakes of fact:

The hare chews the cud (Lev. 11:5-6).
The bat is a bird (Lev. 11:19)
​

Now, I know some Christians try to explain these problems away by telling us that these are the result of bad mistranslations (what else can they say?), but the fact remains that all of the 52 Bibles I checked, every one of them tells their reader that hares/rabbits chew cud and that bats are fowl/birds. (Both contentions being false.)

Of course, a person might consider the contradictions I presented to be inconsequential errors, but they point up the fact that the Bible is not error free, AND further indicate the very real likelihood that more important statements may also be in error---there is no guarantee that all the errors in the Bible are trivial. So, as it turns out, every statement in the Bible is suspect of being wrong. There is no guarantee of the truth of anything written in the book.

So there are a lot of reasons to seriously doubt the accuracy and veracity of the Bible.

.


.

 

[Nakosis]

I don't think so. Bear in mind we are not judging the authors of the Bible as ordinary men. We are judging them on their claim of being divinely-inspired. They're offering God's Word.

Is it more likely that God changed His mind on slavery, the subservience of women and the morality of homosexuality or is it more likely that we humans matured morally while the Bible's scripture on these issues, written by men long ago, became obsolete because it wasn't divinely-inspired moral guidance as claimed?

Depends on the Christian you ask. Some see it as dictated by God, others see it as purely a human endeavor. Some see it as somewhere between the two. My question would be, how would anybody know to make such a claim other than the author's themselves?

Believe it dictated by God or Learned Men of God, Christian's choice.

 

[Sky Rivers]

Why? The practice of slavery involved the ownership of people against their will to be free then as it does now.

There were (to my knowledge) certain conditions which made one a slave.

 

[Sky Rivers]

I don't think I'd know how to use the Bible as a "measure of truth". It'd be like someone makes a statement, wait, let me go check the Bible?

The Bible has stories, wisdom, commandments. Maybe you read the story and learn some wisdom from the story but it seems to me you are still left to your own devices/discernment to determine the truth.

Someone tells me they had a conversation with a donkey... Well Balaam had a conversation with a donkey in the Bible, so it must be true?

I don't have an issue taking the talking donkey or the serpent literally, for the record.

 

[joe1776]

Depends on the Christian you ask. Some see it as dictated by God, others see it as purely a human endeavor. Some see it as somewhere between the two. My question would be, how would anybody know to make such a claim other than the author's themselves?

Believe it dictated by God or Learned Men of God, Christian's choice.

Why would we be concerned here with the Christians who take the Bible as "purely a human endeavor?"

The OP asks if the Bible is without error. So, aren't we only concerned with the Christians who accept the Bible as God's Word written by men who were divinely inspired?

In 1866, about 150 years after the movement to abolish legal slavery in the world began to gather momentum, the Catholic pope told his large Christian flock that he found nothing in "Divine Law" opposed to the buying, selling and trading of slaves. And, according to his Bible, he was right. Fortunately, lay Catholics, like the rest of humanity, examined their consciences and supported the abolition movement.

Slavery is the most obvious but just one example of the Bible being morally wrong.

 

[viole]

No because marriage is between a man and a woman, not between two men or two women. Does it mean we should accept gay adoption? No. Loving someone doesn't mean giving them support for their sin, much less bringing children into it.

Provably false. In my country marriages can happen between two women or two men. And the Church (lutheran) has no problem to celebrate them.

Ciao

- viole