The State vs. Muhammad - Crimes Against Aisha (Recruitment Period)

[Jayhawker Soule]

Debates on a forum aren't exactly perfect either, but ...

You've noticed?

Personally, I rather like the format, although I like it quite a biy more than the 'case' on the docket. In any event, kudos on a thoughtful OP.

 

[bahamut19]

I can make that claim because of a consistency test. IIRC the Quran says that a girl must be physically and emotionally mature before she can be married. If the historical data points which support the idea that Muhammad honoured the Quran are internally consistent then then single data point that opposes that idea can be rejected as spurious. The rationale for a consistency test comes from Occam's Razor, which selects the explanation which makes the minimum number of assumptions made for the relevant data, the assumption being that the spurious was written with malicious intent but was not rejected because of cultural acceptance of child brides.

Does this mean you want to play one of the roles? This thread isn't exactly for the debate yet

 

[bahamut19]

Cite the western academic consensus or for that matter the western academics that can confidently tell you what Aisha's age at marriage is please.

For a mock trial, western academic consensus may not actually matter as much as you would think. And, it feels as though you feel this is the only standard. The idea of a mock trial would be to determine if Muhammad is innocent of a crime, or guilty of a crime. In a court of law, academic consensus is actually not the debate or standard.

Assuming the explanation that ignores data points is the best one is an unnecessary assumption, Occam's razor slashes that assumption. If the data points show 10 instances were Muhammad obeyed the Quran and 1 instance were he disobeyed the fewest assumptions is that he disobeyed 1 out of 11 instances in my opinion.

You haven't done that so far in my opinion.

Occam's razor could be useful, just as long as any evidence presented is considered. The question would be based on the evidence presented, could there be an explanation which demonstrates Muhammad was guilty beyond reasonable doubt, or he was not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. It could be beneficial for a jurist to consider the most simple story which explains a phenomena, but Occam's razor isn't the only tool. Occam's razor focuses on the most simple explanation, whereas a jurist has to consider every explanation regardless of complexity to ensure guilt is beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[Ebionite]

I think it was an action like Khidr (a) when he killed a child, yet it's forbidden for people to do it. Or when Yusuf (a) framed his brothers, but it's forbidden to frame. And when Lut (a) offered his daughters, when it normal circumstances it's not allowed (fornication).

Do you know if there is a rationale for these exceptions?

 

[Link]

Do you know if there is a rationale for these exceptions?

There is always a rational. Khidr (a) is explained in the Quran. As for Yusuf (a), it turned out to benefit his brothers and brought them to faith. As for Lut (a), if they did the lesser evil, it would have healed them and they would've repented and felt bad about the whole thing.

As for Mohammad (s) marriage - the wisdom - you have to understand Surah Tahreem place in the Quran. And to understand that, you have to understand how all Prophets (a) were opposed in the past, and the plots of those who have double face.

 

[Ebionite]

Does this mean you want to play one of the roles? This thread isn't exactly for the debate yet

For me to play a role would imply that I'm endorsing any errors or assumptions that are present in your proposition. If that were resolved I could give it a shot (I may not be able to make timely responses).

 

[bahamut19]

There is always a rational. Khidr (a) is explained in the Quran. As for Yusuf (a), it turned out to benefit his brothers and brought them to faith. As for Lut (a), if they did the lesser evil, it would have healed them and they would've repented and felt bad about the whole thing.

As for Mohammad (s) marriage - the wisdom - you have to understand Surah Tahreem place in the Quran. And to understand that, you have to understand how all Prophets (a) were opposed in the past, and the plots of those who have double face.

The Quran says Yusuf framed his brothers?

 

[Link]

The Quran says Yusuf framed his brothers?

Yes, it's part of the story.

 

[danieldemol]

For a mock trial, western academic consensus may not actually matter as much as you would think. And, it feels as though you feel this is the only standard. The idea of a mock trial would be to determine if Muhammad is innocent of a crime, or guilty of a crime. In a court of law, academic consensus is actually not the debate or standard.

Occam's razor could be useful, just as long as any evidence presented is considered. The question would be based on the evidence presented, could there be an explanation which demonstrates Muhammad was guilty beyond reasonable doubt, or he was not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. It could be beneficial for a jurist to consider the most simple story which explains a phenomena, but Occam's razor isn't the only tool. Occam's razor focuses on the most simple explanation, whereas a jurist has to consider every explanation regardless of complexity to ensure guilt is beyond a reasonable doubt.

Well he was not guilty of a crime simply because it was not against the law of the time to marry a girl who had her menarche. So that ends your debate thread in my view.

 

[bahamut19]

Well he was not guilty of a crime simply because it was not against the law of the time to marry a girl who had her menarche. So that ends your debate thread in my view.

I get you aren't interested in participating. This thread is seeking those who do. If it's not you, look elsewhere.

 

[bahamut19]

Yes, it's part of the story.

Where at in the Quran?

 

[Ebionite]

Where at in the Quran?

Quran 12:70

 

[Link]

Ya Mohamad, Surah Tahrim!

Ya Muhamad,
Suratal Tahreem breaks my heart,
Knowing well the fathers of the two daughters,
Who were threatened and warned therein,
Succeeded as believers failed to help,
And support you after your death,
The hidden Pharaoh and Haman,
Won the day people disobeyed you when you asked to write your will,
Ya Muhamad
We all know who spoke to cause that chaos,
And Zakariya prayed regarding his inheritors
And feared regarding them
And wanted a pure one to inherit him
A pure as in a chosen exalted Leader from you,
Not because of honor he wanted,
Over Imran having Mary who Jesus was promised through,
But because he feared dissension and obscurity,
If a son would not be born on to him
To inherit from Him,
And inherit from the family of Jacob/Abraham,
For jealousy surrounds the chosen ones,
And human vie for the trust of leadership that belongs to you and your Chosen,
Ya Muhamad,
And so Fatima properly refuted the liar,
Who fabricated a fabrication that clearly contradicted the Quran,
And indeed Prophets do leave heirs,
Special inheritance of their knowledge and leadership,
And guidance and the light passes on,
But also normal inheritors,
As Zakariya feared regarding those,
And she proved her case multiple ways,
So woe to the nation who abandoned God's words,
For a liar and a claim with no proofs,
A contradiction to the book,
And words that I know you would never have uttered,
And indeed Prophets regarding the people,
their inheritance is not wealth,
But knowledge,
And that too is opposite to what the liar said
Ya Muhamad,
Peace be upon you,
You and your family,
The travelers to God,
And his helpers,
Who race ahead of all at your pace,
You fourteen are the fastest and foremost in those who race ahead,
And I ask you to ask God,
To make me follow you and your successors,
And love the great daughter who refuted and exposed the liars,
Those who were behind two of their daughters in Suratal Tahreem,
To make me love you and your family,
And help you help me help God,
Thereby following you with goodness,
And doing well to the Masters,
Who have more authority then ourselves like you,
And Suratal Tahreem,
After that, the Surahs are all about the warnings,
The warnings and shorter words of advice,
That was upon the people when they were still ignorant,
As if God is saying,
If you fail to help him,
And his successors,
And abandon them,
Then all those warnings fall upon you!
God bless you like and better and higher and more complete,
Then he blessed Abraham and his family,
And may he never include me among those who envy you or your family,
for what God has given you out of his grace,
And vested you with his authority,
A great authority that extends to all levels of ascension,
And we are never without need of these great helpers,
Neither in guidance are we sufficient,
Nor in power can we succeed without their sustenance that is from you,
And God made your wage which is love of them,
The path to you, and means to you
So we hold on to that,
And on to the recitation that majestically calls to these true kings,
The twelve princes promised to Ismael,
That inherited from you the Messenger sent to all,
Who reigns King because of God giving the authority,
His authority, his command,
The only authority that is true
O Muhamad,
You and your Exalted Family,
Were the Exalted Ones who Iblis,
was asked "Or are you one of the exalted ones?"
And you and your family
Are the first House enjoined for humanity
By which you took the covenant on them
Before they took human form,
And you have sealed with them
Just as you began with them,
And so I ask you to ask God,
To make me true to that love of your family,
Near Kin, and House,
To make he hold on to that name of God
Split into after you, Twelve Captains,
Beautiful Names of God,
The ways who guide by truth,
Branches from you,
Split into twelve,
Just as he did with Aaron and his family,
In the people of Moses,
So he did with you,
But by his wisdom,
To shield Ali and his successors,
Made it that Fatima, the best woman of all time,
Was to be your daugher,
And Ali your cousin,
And so by that in hope to soften the hate,
Yet we hear Ya Muhamad,
Annoying words,
Like you had no sons,
Because leadership was to end,
And we hear it,
Despite their knowledge of Jesus being connected
To the household of Moses and Aaron
Which is the same family of Imran and David,
By Mary with no father,
And you did that as your wisdom,
Was to prepare the way to Mohammad
And his successors,
By your word of life and light,
And name and great reminder,
Jesus,
Who prepared and was clear
In that regard
One who is the holy spirit,
Like all Prophets were that image of God,
Would clearly come,
And Elyas held that position,
When Jesus left to the heavens,
To come back,
And we know very well,
Elyas was the witness who testified to you,
From the children of Israel,
And you if lacked knowledge,
Would not have turned to misguiding leaders,
Of Jews and Christians,
The Clergy who take people's wealth,
But would turn to the family of the reminder of the past,
And surely you are fused with the Quran,
To the extent you are that reminder,
And the Wilayah of Ali is that reminder,
And your family, the family of the final reminder!
And the first house and last house enjoined for humanity
And so you are that name of God
Which is the House,
That is blessed and guidance to humanity,
And who God said
So let them Worship the Lord of this House,
And we turn to God by them
And approach God and know God by them,
Just as you were known through Aaron and Moses,
When they testified
"Lord of Aaron and Moses".
So by you Muhammad and by your family, do we turn to God,
And by their intercession and yours, will we succeed,
We hope our little good deeds
Will be amplified in reward,
By your position with God,
You and your family's
And we hope our immense sins,
Will be destroyed and erased,
Through your love
You who are witnesses to humanity
And the true drivers who God has entrusted,
To Guide and Leader and Steer
Humanity on course,
On his path,
Which is your path,
And the path the wage in Quran calls to!
Forgive me Muhamad for when I denied you,
For you know it was never personal,
but I was trying to escape God's proofs,
That seemed like an overwhelming duty to hold on to,
And so true crime was against the Lord of the worlds,
And so I ask you to intercede and ask forgiveness for me,
And ask God to erase it from my book of deeds,
Ya Muhamad,
We failed you as a nation,
And I failed you personally,
And we forsook the Quran,
And you and your family,
Witnessed it all,
So I ask God to heal me through you
Who are the best course
Brought out for the sake of humans
And even the callers of God to Jinn,
And I turn to you Muhamad,
In hope,
You would not leave this poor seeker,
Deprived,
But suffice him, you and Ali
And Fatima
And Hassan and Hussain
And the 9 swords of God from Hussain,
I ask you and them, with you,
To make God a sufficient guide and helper through you,
And to make him a sufficient reward and peace,
Through you!
Peace be upon You o Messenger
Peace be upon you all the family of revelation,
Fused with the reminder,
The guides to the truth,
And vested with the authority of God
Peace be upon you from me forever!
O Martyred one,
O poisoned one,
O who they conspired against,
And fought his successors,
Burned his sayings in order to hide the truth,
And collected after that Qurans to get rid of your commentary,
Or Commentary from Gabriel and God,
And burned them as well
And your daughter,
And your daughter,
And your daughter,
Fatima,
Ya Fatima,
Your daughter Fatima,
May I take her side forever
And may I bless her and her husband,
And you her father,
And the leaders of guidance connected to you
From her,
Forever and Ever,