The studies on Muslims, so far, have shown that religiosity is associated with criminality

[charlie sc]

The findings of this experiment are rejected by many scientists these days.

For example, a more recent study (link) that analysed the interviews of participants in the experiment found that most of those who followed the orders did so under the assumption that they weren't actually causing any real harm.

Another study (SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals) showed that people were more likely to apply a higher voltage if politely asked to continue after questioning the directive. The more 'authoritarian' the message, the more likely they were to continue to resist. As such, they questioned whether or not obedience to authority was what was really being studied.


View attachment 30207

Let the adults talk now. Go play with some toys

 

[sooda]

Let the adults talk now. Go play with some toys

Do you consider yourself an adult?

 

[charlie sc]

Well, I have lived in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Libya and there was very little crime. I could go to the souks at night unaccompanied without fear.

Indeed, I forgot to put in the OP that crime also correlated with some kind of perceived threat. There are so few of these studies, so I am fairly dubious drawing a strong conclusion. Noting that, the studies themselves are fairly open to many possible explanations.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

For Christianity, religiosity has shown a negative correlation with crime. In other words, the more religious someone is, the less likely they'll commit a crime. Islam displays a different picture. There aren't many studies on Muslims, but the ones that do exist show disturbing correlations. There's a slight difference however. Unlike Christianity, where religiosity generally negatively correlates with crime, there are only certain aspects of Islam and religiosity that positively correlate with crime. Out of the three studies analysed here, they found different aspects of Islam are associated with crime.

Baier(2013) found among 16 545 males students in Germany, the Muslim students were more likely to commit crime and the Christian students were less likely. When Muslim students drank infrequently, they found an increase in criminality. When they ran the same test on Christian students, they found no difference. They also found that Muslim men tended to associate with male chauvinism.

Beller et al.(2018a) found among 761 Muslim schoolchildren in Germany, "religious fundamentalism and perceived religious discrimination predict higher delinquency rates."

Finally, Beller et al.,(2018b) collected self report data from 6576 Muslims in 10 countries and found that Muslims that attended Mosques were more likely to endorse extreme violence(e.g. suicide bombing). However, other factors were more likely to reduce support for extreme violence like avidly reading the Quran or high frequency of prayer. edited for correction

There's not much evidence and more research is needed, but there's a clear mechanism difference between the protective factors of religiosity in Islam vs Christianity. Would anyone care to take a guess why and perhaps people have more to add?

Here's my take one this. Faith is akin to faithfulness. That is, what you focus on. If your religion says extreme nonviolence even if the end result is suicide (Jainism, in some of its most extreme forms), and you have a bunch such people in the area, that area becomes a paradise of animals, but people kinda die off. If you religion emphasizes a caste system, you get India. If it emphasizes Shintoism, you get Japan. If you get a bunch of Christians together, you get Europe (until recently) and US. In fact, if you want to see why I'm extremely skeptical of atheism, watch what the EU and before that the Marxists and Maoists did to their country.

I'm pretty easygoing for alot of religions, but lest you think I'm a cultural relativist, I'm gonna pose a rigged question. If Muslims really had a religion that was so great for their country, why are they all leaving? If it's great, you have to admit they have no reason for being here. And if you insist that they do in fact have a reason to be here, they still don't belong here, because you have just admitted that all the countries they've settled in have been ruined by them.

Here's the thing about Islam. I believe Muslims could be decent as a religious people. However, I think there are several factors actively preventing this, chief among those that it is very hard for them to address anything wrong. They have scriptural infallibility. Remember papal infallibility in Catholicism? Remember what a mess that was? Okay, well their entire book cannot be questioned. Even worse, they have extreme fatalism. In one case, a mother, despite knowing that her son actually died from a drug overdose, continued to insist that Allah had chosen that time to take her son. As much as infallibility prevents proper edits from scriptural canon, fatalism prevents taking any responsibility for one's own life. These two together are really toxic influences on any religion, but coupled with some of the criminal behaviors...

 

[Salvador]

The top 20 post-Christians are ranked as follows: 1. Springfield-Holyoke, MA 2.Portland-Auburn, ME 3. Providence, RI - New Bedford, NH 4. Burlington, VT 5.. Boston, MA-Manchester, NH 6. Albany-Schenectady-Troy, NY 7. Hartford-New Haven, CT 8. Rochester NY 9.Santa Barbara-Santa Maria-San Luis Obispo CA 10 Seattle-Tacoma WA 11. Madison WI 12. Wilkes Barre-Scranton-Hazelton PA 13. Buffalo NY 14. Ft. Myers-Naples FL 15. Davenport IA-Rock Island-Moline IL 16. Tucson-Sierra Vista AZ 17. San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose CA 18. Reno NV 19. Chino-Redding CA 20. New York City NY

During 2015, there were a total combined 972 homicides in the top 20 of these post-Christian cities. http://www.city-data.com/crime/

According to the 2010 Census count, these top 20 post-Christian cities have a combined population of ca. 14.956 million persons.

972 homicides out of ca. 14.956 million persons equals a homicide rate of approximately 6.5 homicides per 100,000 inhabitants

https://www.barna.com/research/post-christian-cities-2019/

According to the American Bible Society, the 20 most Bible-minded cities are : 1 Chattanooga, TN 52% 2 Birmingham / Anniston / Tuscaloosa, AL 51% 3 Roanoke / Lynchburg, VA 48% 4 Shreveport, LA 47% 5 Tri-Cities, TN 47% 6 Charlotte, NC 46% 7 Little Rock / Pine Bluff, AR 45% 8 Knoxville, TN 45% 9 Greenville / Spartanburg 44% Anderson, SC / Ashville, NC 10 Lexington, KY 44% 11 Springfield, MO 44% 12 Huntsville-Decatur-Florence, AL 42% 13 Savannah, GA 42% 14 Oklahoma City, OK 41% 15 Jackson, MS 41% 16 Nashville, TN 39% 17 Louisville, KY 39% 18 Wichita / Hutchinson, KS 39% 19 Baton Rouge, LA 38% 20 Grand Rapids / Kalamazoo / Battle Creek, MI

Reference: The Most Bible-Minded Cities in America | American Bible Society

In 2015, there were 775 homicides in the top 20 most Bible-minded cities. http://www.city-data.com/crime/

According to the 2010 Census count, these top 20 most Bible-minded cities as a group have a total combined population of ca. 6.347 million.

775 homicides out of 6.347 million inhabitants equals a homicide rate of ca. 12.2 homicides per 100,000 persons, the homicide rate of the top 20 most highly Bible-minded cities' population as a group is nearly twice that of the overall 2015 national homicide rate.

The top 20 most Bible-minded cities as a population group have nearly an 88 percent greater homicide rate than that of those top 20 most highly post Christian cities' population group.

Correlation doesn't necessarily imply causality. Crime statistics show the homicide rate is nearly twice as prevalent in the top 20 Bible-minded U.S. metropolises than that of the top 20 Post-Christian U.S. metropolises , but the reason for this may not have anything to do with religion. Differences in climate and ethnicity culture rather than religious beliefs may be the reason why the top 20 Bible-minded U.S. metropolises have nearly twice the homicide rate than that of the top 20 Post-Christian U.S. metropolises.

 

[charlie sc]

Correlation doesn't necessarily imply causality. Crime statistics show the homicide rate is nearly twice is prevalent in the top 20 Bible-minded U.S. metropolises than that of the top 20 Post-Christian U.S. metropolises , but the reason for this may not have anything to do with religion

Yes, though there is a correlation. Of course, correlation does not mean causation, but they may be affecting each other or being influenced by something close. For instance, obesity has been correlated with higher mortality rates. So, doctors have always assumed it's the same thing or cause. However, more recent studies found if you add fitness level and exercise, then people who are obese and do exercise have better morality rates than someone who's average weight and do no exercise.

. Differences in climate and ethnicity rather than religious beliefs may be the reason why the top 20 Bible-minded U.S. metropolises have nearly twice the homicide rate than that of the top 20 Post-Christian U.S. metropolises.

Yep, but remember, not every believer is high on religiosity

 

[Milton Platt]

For Christianity, religiosity has shown a negative correlation with crime. In other words, the more religious someone is, the less likely they'll commit a crime. Islam displays a different picture. There aren't many studies on Muslims, but the ones that do exist show disturbing correlations. There's a slight difference however. Unlike Christianity, where religiosity generally negatively correlates with crime, there are only certain aspects of Islam and religiosity that positively correlate with crime. Out of the three studies analysed here, they found different aspects of Islam are associated with crime.

Baier(2013) found among 16 545 males students in Germany, the Muslim students were more likely to commit crime and the Christian students were less likely. When Muslim students drank infrequently, they found an increase in criminality. When they ran the same test on Christian students, they found no difference. They also found that Muslim men tended to associate with male chauvinism.

Beller et al.(2018a) found among 761 Muslim schoolchildren in Germany, "religious fundamentalism and perceived religious discrimination predict higher delinquency rates."

Finally, Beller et al.,(2018b) collected self report data from 6576 Muslims in 10 countries and found that Muslims that attended Mosques were more likely to endorse extreme violence(e.g. suicide bombing). However, other factors were more likely to reduce support for extreme violence like avidly reading the Quran or high frequency of prayer. edited for correction

There's not much evidence and more research is needed, but there's a clear mechanism difference between the protective factors of religiosity in Islam vs Christianity. Would anyone care to take a guess why and perhaps people have more to add?

I still have to read the linked papers, but have the papers shown that the two religions are the cause of the different the crime rates, or only that there is a correlation? Were the two groups similar in regard to education level, income level, etc?

 

[charlie sc]

I still have to read the linked papers, but have the papers shown that the two religions are the cause of the different the crime rates, or only that there is a correlation? Were the two groups similar in regard to education level, income level, etc?

Yes. It's all correlation. School commitment was similar but still significantly different, and Muslims where more disadvantaged.

On average(mean) there were differences. Including reported violence, "Accordingly, 30% of Muslim adolescents but only 18% of Christian adolescents report having engaged in violence at least once in the last 12 months."
Even though Christians drank more overall, when they measured religiosity with alcohol consumption AND violence, Muslims positively correlated with violent behaviour(see table 4). Without this distinction, religiosity for Muslims wouldn't be correlated, in this study. This is the first link btw.

 

[loverofhumanity]

For Christianity, religiosity has shown a negative correlation with crime. In other words, the more religious someone is, the less likely they'll commit a crime. Islam displays a different picture. There aren't many studies on Muslims, but the ones that do exist show disturbing correlations. There's a slight difference however. Unlike Christianity, where religiosity generally negatively correlates with crime, there are only certain aspects of Islam and religiosity that positively correlate with crime. Out of the three studies analysed here, they found different aspects of Islam are associated with crime.

Baier(2013) found among 16 545 males students in Germany, the Muslim students were more likely to commit crime and the Christian students were less likely. When Muslim students drank infrequently, they found an increase in criminality. When they ran the same test on Christian students, they found no difference. They also found that Muslim men tended to associate with male chauvinism.

Beller et al.(2018a) found among 761 Muslim schoolchildren in Germany, "religious fundamentalism and perceived religious discrimination predict higher delinquency rates."

Finally, Beller et al.,(2018b) collected self report data from 6576 Muslims in 10 countries and found that Muslims that attended Mosques were more likely to endorse extreme violence(e.g. suicide bombing). However, other factors were more likely to reduce support for extreme violence like avidly reading the Quran or high frequency of prayer. edited for correction

There's not much evidence and more research is needed, but there's a clear mechanism difference between the protective factors of religiosity in Islam vs Christianity. Would anyone care to take a guess why and perhaps people have more to add?

A true Muslim is one who obeys the laws of the Quran and commits no crimes while those who do not obey the Quran do commit crimes.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

A true Muslim is one who obeys the laws of the Quran and commits no crimes while those who do not obey the Quran do commit crimes.

Someone can still be a Muslim even if they commit crimes.

 

[charlie sc]

A true Muslim is one who obeys the laws of the Quran and commits no crimes while those who do not obey the Quran do commit crimes.

You make it sound as if true Muslims are perfect.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You make it sound as if true Muslims are perfect.

There are many very sincere Muslims who I have met who would, even if starving, give up their last meal for a guest. They are a very warm, courteous, most hospitable, kind and friendly people with a beautiful culture. (The one the media never shows you)

 

[loverofhumanity]

Someone can still be a Muslim even if they commit crimes.

Socially they can be but are they spiritually?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

For Christianity, religiosity has shown a negative correlation with crime.

How was this shown?
Links?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I have just one question.
Why do you guys keep mocking Muslims and Christian people? is it not time to stop the mocking and let people believe what they want? do you take pleasure in mocking religious people?

Sorry, it's a two way street.
The laws that project your right to believe whatever nonsense you wish, are the same laws that protect my right to make fun about it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I find it to be incorrect, because no matter if it is a Muslim or Christian, it is the human being who does the criminal act, not the religion.
It would be much better if it did not say anything about what religion these people have.

When the entire point of a study is to see how followers of the various religions correlate statistically with certain types of behaviours... then which specific religion the people follow, is kind of crucial information..........................

Religion does not do criminality, only people do. and if they do criminality they should not be seen as religious I the first place.

Beliefs inform actions.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Sorry, it's a two way street.
The laws that project your right to believe whatever nonsense you wish, are the same laws that protect my right to make fun about it.

Does it? What pleasure do you get out of mocking people?
Have you ever been bullied in your life? Do you know how that feels? Because the mocking some people do in this forum start to look a lot like bullying to me.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Science is important in may aspect of life that i see too, But just as science is important to you and what you follow, same is for religious people who understand and follow the teaching because they understand it. But to say Muslims or Christians are better or worse then the other is totally non-important, we must see humanity as one, and more study culture differences then religion.

Science will never understand the religious way of life

Sorry, I completely disagree.

It is perfectly okay to say that certain worldviews are better or worse then others.
Because that's what this is: worldviews that inform actions and moral evaluation.

In the case of Islam in particular, as a belief system it is even way more intrusive in the life of an average muslim, and his/her behaviour, then christianity is.

Muslims themselves always say that Islam is a "way of life".

Some ideologies are simply poison.
Other ideologies are good. Some ideologies can be both at times.

There's nothing wrong with taking the core ideas of ideologies and evaluating them.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Does it?

Yes.

What pleasure do you get out of mocking people?

I don't mock people. I mock ideas. People who consider those ideas "sacred" just take it personal.
They aren't sacred to me. And even if they were, I'ld still consider them free game for jokes, laughter, mocking, satire, scrutiny, questioning whatever you wish to call it.

Have you ever been bullied in your life?

I think most people have.

Do you know how that feels?

Yes. But I don't consider mocking ideas to be "bullying". Again, I'm not mocking people.

Because the mocking some people do in this forum start to look a lot like bullying to me.

Yea well... maybe that's just you.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Socially they can be but are they spiritually?

Sure they can. No-one is spiritually perfect. We're all a work in progress.