The Taiwan Question

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Taiwan is part of China. End of story. I will never recognize Taiwan.

 

[Leftimies]

Taiwan is part of China. End of story. I will never recognize Taiwan.

Do you mind explaining? Your exposition was so brief that it almost gives the impression that you have not properly reflected upon it. Also, it comes across as illogical, because, well, the fact that correlates with physical reality is that Taiwan is not administratively part of PRC (and PRC is considered as the sole representative of Chinese people).

 

[von bek]

Then there is the question that perhaps Qing government could make the claim on Taiwan; however, I don't feel that PRC government has a valid claim on it. Particularly when it justifies itself as an anti-imperialist, communist regime, I find it ironic that they justify their imperialist-nationalistic territorial ambitions based on the territories controlled by historical Imperial governments.

You cannot sever this from the context of European colonialism and the Marxist critique of capitalism, though. Within a Marxist-Leninist context, imperialism is basically capitalism on an international stage, it is not merely the claiming of land. Mao always saw the need to unify Taiwan with the mainland and he justified it in terms of national liberation and unity. It is seen, (from Mao's perspective) as a case of resisting the imperialism of the United States which seeks to weaken the power and drain the wealth of the Chinese people.

One other big point, when the Nationalists fled the mainland, they took practically all of the gold in reserve, impoverishing the nation almost overnight. You better believe Mao and the PRC wanted their gold back.

 

[Leftimies]

You cannot sever this from the context of European colonialism and the Marxist critique of capitalism, though. Within a Marxist-Leninist context, imperialism is basically capitalism on an international stage, it is not merely the claiming of land. Mao always saw the need to unify Taiwan with the mainland and he justified it in terms of national liberation and unity. It is seen, (from Mao's perspective) as a case of resisting the imperialism of the United States which seeks to weaken the power and drain the wealth of the Chinese people.

One other big point, when the Nationalists fled the mainland, they took practically all of the gold in reserve, impoverishing the nation almost overnight. You better believe Mao and the PRC wanted their gold back.

But, today, the gold issue is irrelevant. China prospers through other means. I did know of the gold issue prior, and like any good pro-Taiwanese person, I am quite anti-Kuomintang.

I guess its difficult for me to manage this situation because I'm involved and invested in Taiwan because of my Taiwanese wife. When you see your close ones reduced into weeping, teary mess when they see news about other countries refusing to recognize Taiwan, or China making moves towards the reunification, it affects the bias I suppose. For me, its hard to get past the passion and the invested interest that these people put into their country. The passion is much stronger than what I've seen with my own countrymen, or what I've seen with any country, really. China might want to reunify, but the Taiwanese people do not. Is it truly a reunification, if its completely one-sided?

 

[Laika]

This is such a convoluted and interesting topic. Probably the most complex political debacle of our time.

Well said.

I guess its difficult for me to manage this situation because I'm involved and invested in Taiwan because of my Taiwanese wife. When you see your close ones reduced into weeping, teary mess when they see news about other countries refusing to recognize Taiwan, or China making moves towards the reunification, it affects the bias I suppose. For me, its hard to get past the passion and the invested interest that these people put into their country. The passion is much stronger than what I've seen with my own countrymen, or what I've seen with any country, really. China might want to reunify, but the Taiwanese people do not. Is it truly a reunification, if its completely one-sided?

I think this is really what you should talk about. it cuts through all the jargon and gets to your motivation for it, and it is perfectly understandable why you would feel that way.

What it breaks down to it whether Taiwan is a "nation" or not, and offically resolving the legacy of the civil war. If the Republic of China gave up it's "Chinese" identity and said that it was Tiawanese and no longer made claims to the mainland (which I think have gone out with the Koumintang)- and therefore left the question as to whether the mainland should be democratic or communist is left alone- I would say it is an independent country and should be recognised as such internationally.

In theory, I would say that re-unification would be built on the model of the mainland, simply because the mainland is more powerful. Of course, I'm not the one who would have to go through it, so I'm not as emotionally involved in it. I can fully understand if you said you or your wife didn't want that to be the case, but that still sounds like civil war. The question as to whether communist rule of mainland china is legitimate is a complicated one, as it is easy to appeal to principles of individual liberty, multi-party democracy and human rights, but a much harder thing to actually get them. Tiawan has those things and if someone said that these principles should be the basis of government for the mainland, that is an argument for civil war.

Tiawan would almost certainly lose if it came to open war, but that isn't the same as saying you are wrong. Independence looks like the better way to secure personal freedoms for Tiawanese people. it's should perhaps therefore be less a question of history to qualify as a nation and more a question of the steps that could be taken in the future to make formal recognition of independence possible- irrespective of the actions of mainland China- by strengthening taiwans cliam to nationhood. re-naming the "Republc of China" the "Republic of Tiawan" would be a step forward I think. Beyond that, I'm not sure.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No. The Chinese have their own country already. I support the indigenous Taiwanese peoples.

 

[Leftimies]

Well said.



I think this is really what you should talk about. it cuts through all the jargon and gets to your motivation for it, and it is perfectly understandable why you would feel that way.

What it breaks down to it whether Taiwan is a "nation" or not, and offically resolving the legacy of the civil war. If the Republic of China gave up it's "Chinese" identity and said that it was Tiawanese and no longer made claims to the mainland (which I think have gone out with the Koumintang)- and therefore left the question as to whether the mainland should be democratic or communist is left alone- I would say it is an independent country and should be recognised as such internationally.

In theory, I would say that re-unification would be built on the model of the mainland, simply because the mainland is more powerful. Of course, I'm not the one who would have to go through it, so I'm not as emotionally involved in it. I can fully understand if you said you or your wife didn't want that to be the case, but that still sounds like civil war. The question as to whether communist rule of mainland china is legitimate is a complicated one, as it is easy to appeal to principles of individual liberty, multi-party democracy and human rights, but a much harder thing to actually get them. Tiawan has those things and if someone said that these principles should be the basis of government for the mainland, that is an argument for civil war.

Tiawan would almost certainly lose if it came to open war, but that isn't the same as saying you are wrong. Independence looks like the better way to secure personal freedoms for Tiawanese people. it's should perhaps therefore be less a question of history to qualify as a nation and more a question of the steps that could be taken in the future to make formal recognition of independence possible- irrespective of the actions of mainland China- by strengthening taiwans cliam to nationhood. re-naming the "Republc of China" the "Republic of Tiawan" would be a step forward I think. Beyond that, I'm not sure.

For the Taiwanese, they would declare themselves 'Taiwanese' in official documents if at all possible. However, PRC threatens them with war if they ever make the public statement. Its not that the Taiwanese don't identify as Taiwanese, its not that they don't have anti-Chinese political opinions; its that if they ever market themselves as the 'State of Taiwan' internationally, PRC would - according to the CCP rhetoric - invade. A fact which in itself displays the insanity of the claim that Taiwan is part of China: if Taiwan were just a province of China, why should China invade it and make it part of China again? Obviously, if Taiwan needs to be invaded in order to bring it back to China and to 'reunify' China, then Taiwan is not currently part of China. "Taiwan is part of China, so we should bring it back to China" - doesn't this sentiment strike you too as a gross logical fallacy?

The Kuomintang party has been a big player in artificially keeping the 'Republic of China' alive, but there are signs that KMT will not survive as a major political party past the next decade. They could vaporize into obscurity in just a few years, and the newspaper Asia Sentinel had an article that was exploring the idea of KMT effectively collapsing. The KMT supporters are effectively those who arrived with Chiang from the mainland, and their immediate relatives, but as they are dying of old age, the KMT supporters are declining very fast while the party has no appeal amongst the native Taiwanese, who generally support the Minjindang / Democratic Progressive Party. It is widely expected that the traditionally pro-independence (i.e., pro-Taiwan) Minjindang presidential candidate Tsai Ing Wen will become the next president of Taiwan, and in so doing, the first female president of Taiwan.

As for war, Taiwan would lose if it attacked mainland. However, in defensive warfare, I'd say that Taiwan has pretty good chances of repelling invasion. In any war scenario, the PRC troops would have to cross the Taiwan strait first and during this 'crossing the strait -phase' they would lose a lot of the initial invasion forces. If they make it to the island and mount a successful landing (which would be difficult in itself against defending ground forces, and the PRC would again loose forces in the landing phase), they would have to defeat the Taiwanese forces in the island. And you just have to look at a map, and you can tell that the island is blessed with highly defensible geography. It would be next to impossible to fully defeat Taiwanese mountain regiments that could just retreat to the central highlands and who would also enjoy the full support of the local population. Taiwan also operates underground airbases that can continue to shelter fighter air wings of Taiwan's sophisticated air force even if the country is under a missile attack. The Taiwanese navy would be likely to suffer losses if they are placed outside the island's missile shield systems, and they would most likely come under attack of Chinese submarines in any case. However, the 28 frigates and destroyers that the navy wields could have enough time to perform ASW, anti-air and anti-ship roles successfully before falling prey to Chinese anti-ship weaponry.

In a way, Taiwan would become China's Afghanistan, or another Sino-Vietnamese War in terms of being not winnable. It just wouldn't work.

 

[Laika]

For the Taiwanese, they would declare themselves 'Taiwanese' in official documents if at all possible. However, PRC threatens them with war if they ever make the public statement. Its not that the Taiwanese don't identify as Taiwanese, its not that they don't have anti-Chinese political opinions; its that if they ever market themselves as the 'State of Taiwan' internationally, PRC would - according to the CCP rhetoric - invade. A fact which in itself displays the insanity of the claim that Taiwan is part of China: if Taiwan were just a province of China, why should China invade it and make it part of China again? Obviously, if Taiwan needs to be invaded in order to bring it back to China and to 'reunify' China, then Taiwan is not currently part of China. "Taiwan is part of China, so we should bring it back to China" - doesn't this sentiment strike you too as a gross logical fallacy?

The Kuomintang party has been a big player in artificially keeping the 'Republic of China' alive, but there are signs that KMT will not survive as a major political party past the next decade. They could vaporize into obscurity in just a few years, and the newspaper Asia Sentinel had an article that was exploring the idea of KMT effectively collapsing. The KMT supporters are effectively those who arrived with Chiang from the mainland, and their immediate relatives, but as they are dying of old age, the KMT supporters are declining very fast while the party has no appeal amongst the native Taiwanese, who generally support the Minjindang / Democratic Progressive Party. It is widely expected that the traditionally pro-independence (i.e., pro-Taiwan) Minjindang presidential candidate Tsai Ing Wen will become the next president of Taiwan, and in so doing, the first female president of Taiwan.

As for war, Taiwan would lose if it attacked mainland. However, in defensive warfare, I'd say that Taiwan has pretty good chances of repelling invasion. In any war scenario, the PRC troops would have to cross the Taiwan strait first and during this 'crossing the strait -phase' they would lose a lot of the initial invasion forces. If they make it to the island and mount a successful landing (which would be difficult in itself against defending ground forces, and the PRC would again loose forces in the landing phase), they would have to defeat the Taiwanese forces in the island. And you just have to look at a map, and you can tell that the island is blessed with highly defensible geography. It would be next to impossible to fully defeat Taiwanese mountain regiments that could just retreat to the central highlands and who would also enjoy the full support of the local population. Taiwan also operates underground airbases that can continue to shelter fighter air wings of Taiwan's sophisticated air force even if the country is under a missile attack. The Taiwanese navy would be likely to suffer losses if they are placed outside the island's missile shield systems, and they would most likely come under attack of Chinese submarines in any case. However, the 28 frigates and destroyers that the navy wields could have enough time to perform ASW, anti-air and anti-ship roles successfully before falling prey to Chinese anti-ship weaponry.

In a way, Taiwan would become China's Afghanistan, or another Sino-Vietnamese War in terms of being not winnable. It just wouldn't work.

The flip side of this, is that members of the Communist Party of China who remember when taiwan was 'part of the mainland' (for four years) may also be dieing off and that the younger generation of new rulers just won't care about it. time would be on the side of Taiwanese independence if that is the case.

 

[AsianActivist]

I live in Taiwan. If you say that it's part of China here, everyone aside from 80 year old right wing radicals will laugh at you.

Taiwan calls itself the Republic of China, but it's only because it was INVADED by the Chinese. The Taiwanese language isn't even related to Mandarin.