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The Thorn in Paul's Flesh

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
Judaism2.gif
The Thorn in Paul's Flesh



The Thorn in Paul's Flesh - II Corinthians 12:7-10

That was a condition, which Paul would call it an infirmity. For three times, as he said, he prayed God, so that it be removed from him, but that it had been denied on the basis that what seemed weakness to him, his spiritual strength would be made perfect.

Paul was suffering from Epilepsy, whose aftereffects would cause him a devasting condition of depression.

Epilepsy is a condition which has the characteristic to awake in the epileptic the esoteric sense of spirituality, and to bring up to mind what was spiritually
disturbing the mind, as the condition derives from a neurologic disorder characterized by sudden recurring attacks of motor, sensory or psychic malfunction with or without loss of consciousness or convulsive seizures.

During an attack of epilepsy, sparkles of light are perceived in the mind as to make the person with the condition embelish what it was concerning him or her as to admit a literal fulfilment of what was only a matter of the imagination.

When Paul went for letters in Jerusalem to arrest and bring under chains those in the synagogues of Damascus who followed "the New Way," which was a reference to the Nazarenes followers of Jesus. Halfway, on the Road to Damascus, he was taken by an attack of epilepsy and fell from his horse. During such an attack, he would experience sparkles of light fleshed into his mind, as such effects are usual in epilepsy, and he would experience the rehearse of everything that was in his mind just prior to the attack, which caused in Paul a change of mind. Instead of persecuting the disciples of Jesus physically, just to see them rather grow in number, he would change his strategy and fight them from within by join the Sect of the Nazarenes at his return to Jerusalem. But he was rejected by the Apostles due to his history of violence towards the Nazarenes.

Since epileptic attacks cause the sense of materialization of one's imaginations, as Paul came to complete consciousness, he seemed to be a different man with the fantastic claim that he had spoken with Jesus during his epileptical seizures, and decided to join the Sect of the Nazarenes. However, instead of returning to Jerusalem from the Road to Damascus, he proceeded to Damascus where he stayed for three years, perhaps with the intent to acquire some history of peaceful coexistence with the disciples of the Nazarenes before returning to Jerusalem as "new" man. From then on, everything he experienced in his attacks of epilepsy, he would interpret it and follow it like in a prophetic vision.

Being rejected by the Apostles, after a havoc he caused in Jerusalem, he was sent back to Tarsus, where he belonged, and decided to found his own religion. Since he had always been a Hellenistic Jew, and well-educated in Hellenism, he founded Christianitity on the basis of his Hellenistic concepts, which, of course would not miss to crash with Judaism, and turn the fight into the famous Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.

Ben
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The justice system has a term for this sort of hypothesizing:
Search and seizure...
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
The justice system has a term for this sort of hypothesizing:
Search and seizure...

Well, you don't have to go too far to search. A good part of it I got from the Catholic Encyclopedia of all factions of Christianity. General title, New Testament. Subtitle, Paul.
Ben
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Well, you don't have to go too far to search. A good part of it I got from the Catholic Encyclopedia of all factions of Christianity. General title, New Testament. Subtitle, Paul.
Ben

Could you post a link to the exact page that suggests Paul was epileptic?
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
Could you post a link to the exact page that suggests Paul was epileptic?
Saint Paul

born 5-15 AD in Tarsus/Cilicia, died approx. 64 AD in Rome
In old Ireland, epilepsy was known as 'Saint Paul's disease'. The name points to the centuries-old assumption that the apostle suffered from epilepsy.
To support this view, people usually point to Saint Paul's experience on the road to Damascus, reported in the Acts of the Apostles in the New Testament (Acts 9, 3-9), in which Paul, or Saul as he was known before his conversion to Christianity, is reported to have a fit similar to an epileptic seizure: '...suddenly a light from the sky flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him: ''Saul, Saul! Why do you persecute me?''...Saul got up from the ground and opened his eyes, but he could not see a thing... For three days he was not able to see, and during that time he did not eat or drink anything.'

Saul's sudden fall, the fact that he first lay motionless on the ground but was then able to get up unaided, led people very early on to suspect that this dramatic incident might have been caused by a grand mal seizure. In more recent times, this opinion has found support from the fact that sight impediment-including temporary blindness lasting from several hours to several days-has been observed as being a symptom or result of an epileptic seizure and has been mentioned in many case reports.

In his letters St Paul occasionally gives discreet hints about his 'physical ailment', by which he perhaps means a chronic illness. In the second letter to the Corinthians, for instance, he states: 'But to keep me from being puffed up with pride... I was given a painful physical ailment, which acts as Satan's messenger to beat me and keep me from being proud.' (2 Corinthians, 12,7). In his letter to the Galatians, Paul again describes his physical weakness: 'You remember why I preached the gospel to you the first time; it was because I was ill. But even though my physical condition was a great trial to you, you did not despise or reject me.' (Galatians 4, 13-14) In ancient times people used to spit at 'epileptics', either out of disgust or in order to ward off what they thought to be the 'contagious matter' (epilepsy as 'morbus insputatus': the illness at which one spits).
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Saint Paul

born 5-15 AD in Tarsus/Cilicia, died approx. 64 AD in Rome
In old Ireland, epilepsy was known as 'Saint Paul's disease'. The name points to the centuries-old assumption that the apostle suffered from epilepsy.
To support this view, people usually point to Saint Paul's experience on the road to Damascus, reported in the Acts of the Apostles in the New Testament (Acts 9, 3-9), in which Paul, or Saul as he was known before his conversion to Christianity, is reported to have a fit similar to an epileptic seizure: '...suddenly a light from the sky flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him: ''Saul, Saul! Why do you persecute me?''...Saul got up from the ground and opened his eyes, but he could not see a thing... For three days he was not able to see, and during that time he did not eat or drink anything.'

Saul's sudden fall, the fact that he first lay motionless on the ground but was then able to get up unaided, led people very early on to suspect that this dramatic incident might have been caused by a grand mal seizure. In more recent times, this opinion has found support from the fact that sight impediment-including temporary blindness lasting from several hours to several days-has been observed as being a symptom or result of an epileptic seizure and has been mentioned in many case reports.

In his letters St Paul occasionally gives discreet hints about his 'physical ailment', by which he perhaps means a chronic illness. In the second letter to the Corinthians, for instance, he states: 'But to keep me from being puffed up with pride... I was given a painful physical ailment, which acts as Satan's messenger to beat me and keep me from being proud.' (2 Corinthians, 12,7). In his letter to the Galatians, Paul again describes his physical weakness: 'You remember why I preached the gospel to you the first time; it was because I was ill. But even though my physical condition was a great trial to you, you did not despise or reject me.' (Galatians 4, 13-14) In ancient times people used to spit at 'epileptics', either out of disgust or in order to ward off what they thought to be the 'contagious matter' (epilepsy as 'morbus insputatus': the illness at which one spits).

I guess the link, then, would be Paul, epilepsy. Famous people who suffered from epilepsy. Saint Paul..

And not the Catholic Encyclopedia?
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
And also the Catholic Encyclopedia, where I read about Paul having been an epileptic. But the above is not from the Catholic Encyclopedia. Well, you have found it already.
Ben

I haven't found it in the Catholic Encyclopedia. :shrug:

I have read up on it in google books, though. It seems to me like it was popular before 1900.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Ben, Paul wasn't rejected by the disciples. Acts 15 and Galatians 2 agree that he was accepted.

As for being epileptic, you didn't even try. And your understanding of Pauline theology is just appalling. Paul was not a Hellenistic Jew. He was a Pharisee (both acts and Paul agree on this). He didn't teach replacement theology. He didn't teach that Jesus died in our place. And there is no suggestion in his work that he founded a new religion.

You might as well have said that he had herpes and was a male prostitute, as that would be just as convincing as your argument and supported by just as much evidence; none.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
I haven't found it in the Catholic Encyclopedia. :shrug:

I have read up on it in google books, though. It seems to me like it was popular before 1900.
That actually seems to fit Ben; greatly outdated information.

I was interested in the position that Crossan and Borg push, that Paul actually was suffering from a chronic form of Malaria.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Ben, Paul wasn't rejected by the disciples. Acts 15 and Galatians 2 agree that he was accepted.

As for being epileptic, you didn't even try. And your understanding of Pauline theology is just appalling. Paul was not a Hellenistic Jew. He was a Pharisee (both acts and Paul agree on this). He didn't teach replacement theology. He didn't teach that Jesus died in our place. And there is no suggestion in his work that he founded a new religion.

You might as well have said that he had herpes and was a male prostitute, as that would be just as convincing as your argument and supported by just as much evidence; none.

I agree with you on every point except for this. There might not be a direct assertion that he was creating a new religion, but plenty of responsible folks have interpreted his writings as such. That is to say that Paul may not have said that he intended to start a new religion, but in fact he did. The principle signifier of this is the seperation of Jews and Gentiles early in Pauline Christianity -- this is something that he explicitly addressed and did not want -- but it is the direct consequence of his work.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
That actually seems to fit Ben; greatly outdated information.

I was interested in the position that Crossan and Borg push, that Paul actually was suffering from a chronic form of Malaria.

I've heard that suggestion, and it seems reasonable to me.

Personally, I think that it had something to do with his eyesight.
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
Ben, Paul wasn't rejected by the disciples. Acts 15 and Galatians 2 agree that he was accepted.

As for being epileptic, you didn't even try. And your understanding of Pauline theology is just appalling. Paul was not a Hellenistic Jew. He was a Pharisee (both acts and Paul agree on this). He didn't teach replacement theology. He didn't teach that Jesus died in our place. And there is no suggestion in his work that he founded a new religion.

You might as well have said that he had herpes and was a male prostitute, as that would be just as convincing as your argument and supported by just as much evidence; none.

Now, I wonder why you persist in being an Agnostic and does not join his religion. What Agnostic would be such a champion to a man like Paul?
Ben
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Now, I wonder why you persist in being an Agnostic and does not join his religion. What Agnostic would be such a champion to a man like Paul?
Ben
Because I have a scholarly interest in early Christianity and the Jesus movement. Paul plays a large role there. Not to mention that he is extremely important in Western history.
 
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