The Torah and Capital Punishment

[Heyo]

Since you didn't object, I assume you agree with @rosends answer. And since I now have a clear answer, I'll re-tribute in kind.

This brings me to an interesting point. If you don't mind me asking the following questions.

1. What country do you live in?

Germany. (I thought the hints had given that away.)

1. How are the following crimes dealt with in the soceity you come from?

1. I'm not a legal scholar, so the answers are to my best knowledge.

   • Treason which causes the destruction of more than 100 people?

   • This is the one I know least of. The treason itself without any other consequences seems to carry imprisonment between a half up to ten years.

     [*]Foreign terrorism?

     Germany had, until recently, a policy not to interfere with internal affairs of other countries. I'd like to keep it that way.

     [*]Perputrators of mass shootings?
     [*]Terrorism on the soil of your country?
     [*]Mafia/gang violence?

     There is no difference between violent crimes by motive. Homicide has an eight year imprisonment, murder a nominal "life" sentence which is usually 15 years.

     [*]Isis fighters who left your country to join a terrorist state?

     Supporting a terrorist organisation has a six month to 10 years imprisonment. That is, when they come back to Germany as we don't do trials in absence.

     [*]Seriel killers?
     [*]Serial child abusers?

     These have a speciality that is invoked when someone is considered incapable of self control. A judge can order preventive custody. I.e. as long as they are considered dangerous, they don't get their freedom back. They are not in prison but in a closed institution.

     [*]Colonizers of African and South American countries?

     We don't have living people who participated in colonisation. But there are discussions about reparations to victims of German colonization during the Kaiserreich.

Also, in the country you come from who set/sets the standard for criminal punishment?

1. A national vote of citizens?
2. Elected officials?

Laws get made by the "Bundestag" (like US Congress), elected officials. The basis of all law is the "Grundgesetz" (what we have instead of a constitution). Most Germans don't even know there is a difference and they don't care. I'm kind of a stickler as I'd prefer we had a national vote on the Grundgesetz to make it into a full constitution by international law. We had a chance to do it after WWII and the occupation ended in 1989 but our officials feared the German people wouldn't confirm it in full.

I hope that answers your questions.


Assuming you'd get a Thorath Mosheh nation and a temple, how would that differ from Germany?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Since you didn't object, I assume you agree with @rosends answer.

I don't have to object to his answer. I can simply give it more detail. Again, let's be clear the same way you are not trying to justify your culture and your nation to me I am not trying to justify my culture or nation to you. Essentially, as far as I am concerned all of this is a part of answering David's OP as far as I am concerned.

Germany. (I thought the hints had given that away.)

Given that there are a LOT of countries that at one point meet the hints you gave I prefered not to make a judgement on that. From my perspective, it is better for you to define it rather than me making a wrong assumption.

Assuming you'd get a Thorath Mosheh nation and a temple, how would that differ from Germany?

The basic way is that Israel is not supposed to be like Germany and Germany is not supposed to be like Israel. Germans are supposed to Germans and Israelis are supposed to Torath Mosheh Israelis. That is where the first difference would be.

Of course we could go through the details of the fact that in a Torath Mosheh nation there are cultural/historical elements of the society that don't exist in Germany due to history, language, and geography. Another simple way of looking at it would be that if you compare the day to day, of any of day of the week, between us we would see that Germans carry on through their day in one set of ways and Torath Mosheh Israelis do so in a different set of ways.

At some point down the line, of course, a Torath Mosheh nation is only successful if it is proven that Source of reality/creation is suppurting such a nation. I don't think Germany has such a criteria so that is another difference.

 

[Heyo]

The basic way is that Israel is not supposed to be like Germany and Germany is not supposed to be like Israel. Germans are supposed to Germans and Israelis are supposed to Torath Mosheh Israelis.

And yet, when the modern Israel was founded, it was founded as a secular country, modelled after modern, democratic, western countries. There was once even the idea of Israel joining the EU (despite Israel not being in Europe). And, aside from the location, it would have better chances than Turkey (which is at least partly in Europe). The average Israeli would fit right in with the average European, in culture, morals and politics.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I'm not a legal scholar, so the answers are to my best knowledge.

Not a problem. I understand. Just be aware, according to Torath Mosheh, ALL Israelis/Jews are supposed to be legal scholars.

1. I'm not a legal scholar, so the answers are to my best knowledge.
   • This is the one I know least of. The treason itself without any other consequences seems to carry imprisonment between a half up to ten years.Germany had, until recently, a policy not to interfere with internal affairs of other countries. I'd like to keep it that way.There is no difference between violent crimes by motive. Homicide has an eight year imprisonment, murder a nominal "life" sentence which is usually 15 years.Supporting a terrorist organisation has a six month to 10 years imprisonment. That is, when they come back to Germany as we don't do trials in absence.These have a speciality that is invoked when someone is considered incapable of self control. A judge can order preventive custody. I.e. as long as they are considered dangerous, they don't get their freedom back. They are not in prison but in a closed institution.We don't have living people who participated in colonisation. But there are discussions about reparations to victims of German colonization during the Kaiserreich.

Okay. So, my point here would be that levels of imprisonment, especially if they are imprisonments with other offenders, would not be acceptable in a Torath Mosheh Israeli/Jewish society. Not as a comparison or criticism of the German system of law that was decided by someone(s) in German society. [QUICK NOTE: According the Noachide laws non-Jewish societies are considered to have to develop systems of laws specific to their own needs. Not at all determined by Jews.]

Thus, for a Torath Mosheh Israeli nation the following statistics for various issues are unacceptable. They may be acceptable, on some level, in German society but not in a Torath Mosheh Israeli national one for the reasons I gave in my earlier posts.

Again, not a judgement against Germany because according to the Noachide laws "Germans" have to decide for themselves how their system of law is supposed to work, not us Torath Mosheh Jews. These kinds of statistics would require the national and local Torath Mosheh governments to fast and immediate action to lead/inspire the generation to do things differently to turn away from a culture that has such as a regular day to day life. Fixing such a problem in one generation would be required.

Laws get made by the "Bundestag" (like US Congress), elected officials. The basis of all law is the "Grundgesetz" (what we have instead of a constitution). Most Germans don't even know there is a difference and they don't care.

Difference in Torath Mosheh Israeli, every Jew is required to be taught how the system works, be aware of who does what, how and why and be involved. Essentially, it is like saying every parent is supposed to be a rabbi of their home. The Torah is the foundation, the Beith Din HaGadol (Mosaic Court) is the source of Oral Torah/leaders of Judicial/science/infrastructure, the Davidic King leads the nations national finance, military, and some elements of Judicial leadership, Kohanim lead in both teaching of Torah and also the Temple service, the Lewyim leaders in cities of refuge/Torah leadership, in each group of 1,000's, 100's, 50's, and 10's of Israelis require legal leadership/scientific/philosophical instruction, etc.

I'm kind of a stickler as I'd prefer we had a national vote on the Grundgesetz to make it into a full constitution by international law. We had a chance to do it after WWII and the occupation ended in 1989 but our officials feared the German people wouldn't confirm it in full.

Okay. Interesting.

I hope that answers your questions.

It does thank you.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

And yet, when the modern Israel was founded, it was founded as a secular country, modelled after modern, democratic, western countries.

Yes, the Jews who put that together were secular and some of them were seeking to, "Make a European country in the Middle East filled with Jews." Some of those Jews, who had this idea, did everything they could to downgrade, humilite, and remove the culture of Jews who were a) Torah based and b) from Middle Eastern/African/and Asian countries. Even with all of that attempt at being European and Secular many parts of the world don't look favorably on the Modern State of Israel.

The average Israeli would fit right in with the average European, in culture, morals and politics.

There are many Israelis who know that no matter what they do, they don't really fit into Euro culture. Besides, that was tried already in the past and European Jews paid a heavy price for that attempt, starting several hundred years ago.

 

[Heyo]

Also, of importance - accordnig to Torath Mosheh a society that has the following circumstances is immoral and barbaric:

1. A nation that has a prison system where criminals are locked up with other criminals.
   • Torath Mosheh - Criminals need to be confined to areas among upstanding citizens who keep Torah and can defend themselvs so that the "criminal" can be hopefully influenced to change their ways.
2. A nation that locks away criminals for life among other criminals.
   • Torath Mosheh - Criminals need to be confined to areas among upstanding citizens who keep Torah and can defend themselvs so that the "criminal" can be hopefully influenced to change their ways. As the saying goes, if a Jew is sent into exile his rabbi must go into exile with him. Meaning that he has to be exiled to a place where he can be directly influenced by his surroundings.
3. A nation that allows cigerettes, with hazardous chemicals in them and addictive properties added, to be sold.
   • Torath Mosheh - A business that produces products that explicity do damage to the user cannot be allowed to operate in a Torah based society. Allowing such a product to be sold poses a danger to the public and also doesn't allow themselves to easily quit the bad habit.
4. A nation that allows foods that are not healthy, and cause the deteriation of health, to be legally sold.
   • Torath Mosheh - A business that produces products that explicity do damage to the user cannot be allowed to operate in a Torah based society. Allowing such a product to be sold poses a danger to the public.
5. A nation that causes polution and allows for the creation of materials that pollute the planet.
   • Torath Mosheh - Treatment of the land is a high level mitzvah. Causing destruction to the land of Israel and the planet, especially if it is irreversiable points to an immoral and barbaric society. Things such as the modern creation and dumping of plastics, chemicals, etc. into the land, rivers, and oceans are all types of immoral and barbaric activities in Torath Mosheh thinking.
6. A nation that creates and houses weapons of mass destruction.
   • Torath Mosheh - No generation should have to go to war. Yet, if there is a circumstance where it happens, normally speaks to a problem in that particular generation of Israelis, then a weapon of mass destruction cannot be employed. This is one the reasons that IF war is happening Torath Mosheh Jews are forbidden to attack from all sides. One side has to be left open for anyone who doesn't want to be involved. Further, the attack has to preceeded by two letters to invite the other side to avert the conflict through non milaristic means. A Torath Mosheh Jewish army has to be small in number, with a few exceptions of a draft, and there has to be proof from Hashem that such a battle is warrented.
7. A nation that has to execute anyone, even in self defense.
   • Torath Mosheh - that is right whenever a death penalty is invoked, it speaks to the lack of morality of that particular generation where the government had to enact the possibility - i.e. if they had to invoke the possibility then they were not keeping the Torah correctly in some way. In the Torath Mosheh perspective every generation that has injustice to the level where there is no choice but to execute someone is liable [i.e. that generation is liable for corrective action]. Thus, in the Torah there are functions that are given to correct such a fault in that generation. Further, the possiblity for the "government" of a Torath Mosheh nation to enact the judicial system to the maximum is one that every Torath Mosheh generation has not taken lightly thus, we are required to imitate the ways of Hashem, and work hard to convince Israelis, in such a nation, to come to the table of reason and reconcilation so that no generation has to lower itself to an immoral and barbaric level by taking such an action. i.e. all human deaths have an effect on society. Thus, the Torah uses language, in Hebrew, to describe things to make this point clear to Torath Mosheh Jews in order to convince Torath Mosheh Jews to cosntantly work on improving Israeli society so that crimes don't take place and no one has to be punished for crime.

Thus, this is the reason that in more than 3,000 years there have been only a handful of "Capital Punishments" in Torath Mosheh society. So, since I know that some consider the above to be "Bronze Age" thinking I am glad to be a Bronze Age man any day.

Who made these rules, when and where are they codified?
They must be relatively modern as cigarettes are a modern product.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Who made these rules, when and where are they codified?
They must be relatively modern as cigarettes are a modern product.

They started from when the Torah was given at Mount Sinai in the written Torah and the Oral Torath was given along with it. It is actually covered in various parts of the Hebrew Tanakh, as well as the Oral History/Teachings about the events and their meanings. The Oral Torah was first written during the time of the Mishnah and in the Talmud, but its content are from earlier periods. In each generation there have been Torah based courts which have addressed the current issues of every generation and how to relate to them using the foundation given the Torah (written and oral).

Thus, they are not modern for Torath Mosheh Jews since the instituions that would allow someone to create an industry, such as what companies like the Tobacco Industry has created, are not new in history. In ancient times, Jewish Torah based discussion already addressed the issue of producing/selling products that can harm someone (even at a distance and indirectly). This was already in place the minute that the Torah society began more than 3,000 years ago. i.e. in the Talmud the discussion about industry, damages, legal requirements, sale/renting/buying, social and environmental responsibility, business ethics, jurisdictions, etc. are a major part of what is dealt with in it.

The effects of smoking on the smoker and the those who can be affected by the smoke are similar to other issues discussed in the Talmud thus, the "modern" industry of Tobacco production and use can be easily understood to be prohibited, based on Torah law, from issues that alread existed similar to it in the past. Also, be aware that smoking is also not a new thing - the Mayans had it back in their day.

It is one of the reasons we are known as the "Peole of the Book."