The Transfiguration

[lunamoth]

The Transfiguration. What do you think this event means?

Were Moses and Elijah there bodily resurrected, or were these visions or something else?

What is its more than literal meaning?

And how does the presence of Elijah on the mountain relate to Jesus indicating that John the Baptist is Elijah?

I actually have an off-the-wall idea, along with the traditional teaching, but I'd like to hear what you all think.

1After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
4Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."
5While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"
6When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7But Jesus came and touched them. "Get up," he said. "Don't be afraid." 8When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.
9As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."
10The disciples asked him, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?" 11Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." 13Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist. (Matt 17, NIV)

lunamoth

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

well, a little look at the concordance tells me that transfiguration was translated from

Metamorphoo: to change into another form

I believe Moses, Elijah, and Jesus are all part of the same 'soul group', and this was a witness to Jesus talking to his 'spiritual guides', those parts of his soul group that was not incarnate at the time ( like the apostles). And of course they were supposed to keep quiet about it because the Jews believed that talking to the dead was of Satan.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says:

"Christ's Transfiguration aims at strengthening the apostles' faith in anticipation of his Passion: the ascent on to the "high mountain" prepares for the ascent to Calvary. Christ, Head of the Church, manifests what his Body contains and radiates in the sacraments: "the hope of glory" (Col 1:27; cf.: St. Leo the Great, Sermo 51, 3: PL 54, 310C)." paragraph 568

Just food for thought, I suppose.


FerventGodSeeker

 

[James the Persian]

Orthodox teching is that Elijah and Moses were both really there, that the light of the Transfiguration is the uncreated light of God made visible to the Apostles and hence it is one of the most important feasts in the Church due to its demonstration of Christ's Divinity. Scripture is not at all clear that John the Baptist actually was Elijah. In fact the idea is an impossibility when taken in the context of Christianity's opposition to the idea of reincarnation (not to mention the fact that Elijah never actually died). Holy Tradition teches that John had the role of Elijah rather than that he was Elijah reincarnated.

James

 

[lunamoth]

Thank you all. I hope this conversation continues as I would enjoy hearing the interpretations from others, Protestant, LDS, JW, etc. . Haha--I'll have to research whether the Episcopal church has anything specific about this, but I would guess that they mirror the Catholic and Orthodox views.

Orthodox teaching is that Elijah and Moses were both really there, that the light of the Transfiguration is the uncreated light of God made visible to the Apostles and hence it is one of the most important feasts in the Church due to its demonstration of Christ's Divinity. Scripture is not at all clear that John the Baptist actually was Elijah. In fact the idea is an impossibility when taken in the context of Christianity's opposition to the idea of reincarnation (not to mention the fact that Elijah never actually died). Holy Tradition teches that John had the role of Elijah rather than that he was Elijah reincarnated.

James

James I find this especially interesting. As an aside, when I was a Baha'i the comparison of Elijah to being John the Baptist is used to support the belief that Baha'u'llah is in a similar manner the return of Christ. Anyhoo...

My strange idea is that since Moses and Elijah were both really there, could this mountaintop experience be related to the mountaintop experiences in the OT. As Moses and Elijah could be present with Christ in their 'future,' was not Chirst present at their mountaintop experiences in His past? Perhaps our lives after our own resurrections exist outside of time? How fringe is this concept from the orthodox view?

lunamoth

 

[nutshell]

We believe that Moses and Elijah were really there. We believe this is when authority from the heads of other dispensations were passed to Peter, James, and John as they would be the head of the Church. We believe Joseph Smith had a similar experience:

document.write(drawVerse(11,160355));After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.

After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of

Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.

After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:

&nbsp14Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—

document.write(drawVerse(15,160359));&nbsp15To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—

&nbsp16Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

 

[Quiddity]

Orthodox teching is that Elijah and Moses were both really there, that the light of the Transfiguration is the uncreated light of God made visible to the Apostles and hence it is one of the most important feasts in the Church due to its demonstration of Christ's Divinity. Scripture is not at all clear that John the Baptist actually was Elijah. In fact the idea is an impossibility when taken in the context of Christianity's opposition to the idea of reincarnation (not to mention the fact that Elijah never actually died). Holy Tradition teches that John had the role of Elijah rather than that he was Elijah reincarnated.

James

It's been a while since I ventured into this topic. This made so much sense to me considering we are rather close doctrinally in this regard.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

James I find this especially interesting. As an aside, when I was a Baha'i the comparison of Elijah to being John the Baptist is used to support the belief that Baha'u'llah is in a similar manner the return of Christ. Anyhoo...

You used to be Bahai? Wow, what brought you into the Christian Church, and specifically the Episcopalian Church? Sorry if this is an aside, I've just never heard from an ex-Bahai Christian before.

FerventGodSeeker

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

Jesus, Moses and Elijah were feeling good one day so they decided to go golfing. Jesus being Jesus always gets to tee off first. They get to the 7th hole, which is a long par 5 with a creek running across it at about 240 yards. Jesus gets up to tee off and selects his driver.

Moses asks Jesus if he is going to try to drive across the creek and Jesus says that he is feeling so good that he thinks he can make it. So Jesus tees off and it is a long drive but it lands in the middle of the creek. Jesus asks Moses to part the water of the creek so he can retrieve his ball saying, "You know how much I hate to lose a ball." So Moses parts the waters of the creek and the ball is retrieved.

Jesus tees it up again and because he is Jesus he gets unlimited mulligans. Jesus says he is going to try to drive the creek again. Moses responds, "Ok, but I am not going to help you get it back again!" Jesus hits tee shot again and sure enough kerr plop it lands in the creek again. So he goes down and is walking on the water looking for his ball.

Meanwhile back at the tee the following foursome has reached the tee.

One of the golfers says to Moses, "Look at that guy walking on the water. Who does he think he is? Jesus Christ?"

Moses responds, "No, he thinks he is Tiger Woods."

 

[lunamoth]

Jesus, Moses and Elijah were feeling good one day so they decided to go golfing. Jesus being Jesus always gets to tee off first. They get to the 7th hole, which is a long par 5 with a creek running across it at about 240 yards. Jesus gets up to tee off and selects his driver.

Moses asks Jesus if he is going to try to drive across the creek and Jesus says that he is feeling so good that he thinks he can make it. So Jesus tees off and it is a long drive but it lands in the middle of the creek. Jesus asks Moses to part the water of the creek so he can retrieve his ball saying, "You know how much I hate to lose a ball." So Moses parts the waters of the creek and the ball is retrieved.

Jesus tees it up again and because he is Jesus he gets unlimited mulligans. Jesus says he is going to try to drive the creek again. Moses responds, "Ok, but I am not going to help you get it back again!" Jesus hits tee shot again and sure enough kerr plop it lands in the creek again. So he goes down and is walking on the water looking for his ball.

Meanwhile back at the tee the following foursome has reached the tee.

One of the golfers says to Moses, "Look at that guy walking on the water. Who does he think he is? Jesus Christ?"

Moses responds, "No, he thinks he is Tiger Woods."

ROFL! Mind if I steal that one? I know some people who would appreciate it, myself included!

 

[lunamoth]

You used to be Bahai? Wow, what brought you into the Christian Church, and specifically the Episcopalian Church? Sorry if this is an aside, I've just never heard from an ex-Bahai Christian before.

FerventGodSeeker

I was a Baha'i for five years and returned to Christianity two or so years ago. I was baptized into the Episcopal Church, was an agnostic for most of my life, started seeking God again and found the Baha'i Faith. Loved being a Baha'i right up to the moment I realized I no longer was one. My return to the Episcopal Church felt like a an act of grace and a homecoming at the same time. Ironically, one thing that brought me to doubt the Baha'i Faith was that Baha'is are encouraged to study all the religions, so I studied the Bible and Christianity intently for the first time as a Baha'i.

Well, this is a derailment, and even if I did start the thread it'd be better not to get sidetracked here. If you have more questions we can start another thread comparing the Baha'i Faith to Christianity or you can PM me.

lunamoth

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

ROFL! Mind if I steal that one? I know some people who would appreciate it, myself included!

I didn't write the joke, I actually did a google search for Moses and Elijah, and came across this joke. So go ahead and take it, i found it on a joke site.

 

[may]

The transfiguration vision was a brilliant foregleam of Christ in Kingdom glory. (Matt. 17:1-9) That vision strengthened the faith of Peter, James, and John. Likewise, in this time of the end, Jehovah has strengthened the faith of his modern-day servants by shedding increased light on the fulfillment of that awesome vision and many related prophecies. Referring to the transfiguration, the apostle Peter wrote: "Consequently we have the prophetic word made more sure; and you are doing well in paying attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and a daystar rises, in your hearts." (2 Pet. 1:19) That figurative Daystar, or "bright morning star," is the glorified Jesus Christ. (Rev. 22:16) He ‘rose’ in 1914 when God’s Kingdom was born in heaven, marking the dawn of a new era.

 

[may]

In the transfiguration vision, Moses and Elijah appeared alongside Jesus, conversing with him. Whom do they foreshadow? they represent the annointed christians who will be with Jesus in the kingdom
Why, though, are anointed Christians represented by Moses and Elijah? The reason is that such Christians, while still in the flesh, do a work similar to that performed by Moses and Elijah. For example, they serve as Jehovah’s witnesses, even in the face of persecution. (Isaiah 43:10; Acts 8:1-8; Revelation 11:2-12) Like Moses and Elijah, they courageously expose false religion while exhorting sincere people to give God exclusive devotion. (Exodus 32:19, 20; Deuteronomy 4:22-24; 1 Kings 18:18-40) i find it really interesting how things all fit togeather and make great sense

 

[Smoke]

well, a little look at the concordance tells me that transfiguration was translated from

Metamorphoo: to change into another form

The Greek Orthodox Church still refers to the Transfiguration as the Metamorphosis. (In Greek, that is. In English, they say Transfiguration.)

 

[gnostic]

How can Elijah, who like Enoch, be resurrected when he had never died?

 

[wmam]

Well..... My understanding is that it is a vision as it said. It shows what is to come in the way that it will occur. Moshe' and Eliyah are those that are raised from the grave that slept in the Anointed while Yahshua represents the 144.000. They met in the clouds.

 

[gnostic]

I still say how could Elijah be raised from the grave, when he had already ascended long before Jesus' time, like Enoch, without dying (2 Kings 2).

If he was raised, then wouldn't that contradict his ascension in the 2nd book of Kings?

 

[lunamoth]

How can Elijah, who like Enoch, be resurrected when he had never died?

Hi gnostic,
Where are you getting the idea about Elijah being resurrected related to the Transfiguration? Whether he never died or was resurrected, the main point is that he was there...

I actually think that this is a bit of time-folding going on...Moses on the the mountain talking to God...Elijah on the mountain talking to God...both of them together with Jesus on the mountain, talking to God.

 

[gnostic]

From Wmam's last post. I'm confused by reply.

And now I'm confused by your last statement.

Why would Elijah need to be on the mountain, "talking" to God, when he can talk to God directly in heaven? Unless you really think God lives on the mountain.

What is the whole purpose of the Transfiguration, anyway? It has been a long while since I have read that parts of the gospels, and what I can remember, I don't understand back then, and I don't understand the purpose now. To allow the 3 apostles to witness Jesus talking to Moses and Elijah? How do they know it was Moses or Elijah, when there seemed to be no communication between the apostles and former prophets? How were they identify?