The Tree in the Garden

[Muffled]

This one is aimed in particular at the Christian Genesis story when taken literally.

Why do children believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy? No, this isn't a trite and tasteless jab at God "being like a Santa Claus for adults," don't worry. I have a point here.

It seems to be because children are more receiving of anything that's told to them, even if it would otherwise obviously not be true. We have to teach our children not to listen to the deceit of strangers. Put simply, kids -- who lack a concept of the ramifications for their actions and the faculties to discern fact from fiction -- are imperfect analogies to a person who lacks knowledge of good and evil.

If someone doesn't know what "evil" is, then they have no idea what a "lie" is. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Now let's suppose that God drops a forbidden tree in the middle of a garden. (Let's put aside the obviously bizarre question of why God would need or create such a thing in the first place other than as a form of entrapment). He creates Adam and Eve devoid of any knowledge of good and evil.

Along comes a serpent, whom God must have known would be there (as per His omniscience), who tells Eve a lie. Now, regardless of whether or not God says "Don't eat from the tree," the only possible outcome of the serpent telling someone who doesn't know deception that it's OK to eat from the tree is that Eve would genuinely believe it's OK to eat from the tree, being unable to discern a lie from the truth.

So, if God creates a tree that He doesn't even need (omnipotence would mean that God doesn't require anything, so why create a forbidden tree?), inadequately prepares His creation against an evil He knows exists (Adam and Eve were innocent of knowledge of deception, yet God freely allowed a liar in the garden), and furthermore God must have foreknown the consequences of this setup, then we have the most elaborate entrapment ever perpetrated by anyone on anyone else.

Worse still, God then punished Adam and Eve for something they had no control over with a Pandora's Box of cruel and hideous amounts of suffering.

Yet, this is a "good" God?

Dropping an unnecessary forbidden tree in a garden with inadequately prepared, innocent people with a liar on the loose is no different from dropping a loaded revolver in a baby's crib.

Absolutely.

This isn't a very good analogy. Babies woudn't know what to do with a gun but Adam and Eve were accustomed to eating the fruit of trees as a good thing.

I am not sure this assumption can be validated. Eve only knew what was good but the question is whether the lie aligned with what is good. God said "Don't eat" so eating would not align with what is good. Of course the realization of that would introduce Eve to evil whether she ate of the fruit or not.

You couldn't get further from the truth. Adam and Eve knew what was good and had the free will to choose it. Since they chose evil instead, they were worthy of punishment.

 

[Muffled]

So you believe they knew good from evil before eating from the tree?

They did know evil because God told them exactly what it was, eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They also knew that the resulting punishment would be death.

 

[Ozzie]

This one is aimed in particular at the Christian Genesis story when taken literally.

Why do children believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy? No, this isn't a trite and tasteless jab at God "being like a Santa Claus for adults," don't worry. I have a point here.

It seems to be because children are more receiving of anything that's told to them, even if it would otherwise obviously not be true. We have to teach our children not to listen to the deceit of strangers. Put simply, kids -- who lack a concept of the ramifications for their actions and the faculties to discern fact from fiction -- are imperfect analogies to a person who lacks knowledge of good and evil.

If someone doesn't know what "evil" is, then they have no idea what a "lie" is. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Now let's suppose that God drops a forbidden tree in the middle of a garden. (Let's put aside the obviously bizarre question of why God would need or create such a thing in the first place other than as a form of entrapment). He creates Adam and Eve devoid of any knowledge of good and evil.

Along comes a serpent, whom God must have known would be there (as per His omniscience), who tells Eve a lie. Now, regardless of whether or not God says "Don't eat from the tree," the only possible outcome of the serpent telling someone who doesn't know deception that it's OK to eat from the tree is that Eve would genuinely believe it's OK to eat from the tree, being unable to discern a lie from the truth.

So, if God creates a tree that He doesn't even need (omnipotence would mean that God doesn't require anything, so why create a forbidden tree?), inadequately prepares His creation against an evil He knows exists (Adam and Eve were innocent of knowledge of deception, yet God freely allowed a liar in the garden), and furthermore God must have foreknown the consequences of this setup, then we have the most elaborate entrapment ever perpetrated by anyone on anyone else.

Worse still, God then punished Adam and Eve for something they had no control over with a Pandora's Box of cruel and hideous amounts of suffering.

Yet, this is a "good" God?

Dropping an unnecessary forbidden tree in a garden with inadequately prepared, innocent people with a liar on the loose is no different from dropping a loaded revolver in a baby's crib.

The naivety of Adam and Eve is the "lie", reprocessed in the nativity scene from JESUS. Perfection

 

[gnostic]

They did know evil because God told them exactly what it was, eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They also knew that the resulting punishment would be death.

But what is "death"?

Did Adam and Eve really understand what death is?

They have never seen anyone or any creature die before. From what I understand in the Genesis, God creature all sort of creature in the Garden, and yet there are no description whatsoever of any creature dying before. In fact, the animals that are natural predators in reality, don't seem to attack, kill and eat other creature, as if they all seem docile or tame.

And do you think they understand "spiritual death"?

Spiritual death, with regards to Garden of Eden episode, is only a recent concept and interpretation, and I doubt Adam and Eve would or could have understand spiritual death any more than natural death.

 

[rusra02]

So you believe they knew good from evil before eating from the tree?

Certainly. God told them they should not eat from that one tree. They knew it was bad to disobey God. The tree represented the right to decide for oneself what is good and bad.

 

[dust1n]

This one is aimed in particular at the Christian Genesis story when taken literally.

Why do children believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy? No, this isn't a trite and tasteless jab at God "being like a Santa Claus for adults," don't worry. I have a point here.

It seems to be because children are more receiving of anything that's told to them, even if it would otherwise obviously not be true. We have to teach our children not to listen to the deceit of strangers. Put simply, kids -- who lack a concept of the ramifications for their actions and the faculties to discern fact from fiction -- are imperfect analogies to a person who lacks knowledge of good and evil.

If someone doesn't know what "evil" is, then they have no idea what a "lie" is. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Now let's suppose that God drops a forbidden tree in the middle of a garden. (Let's put aside the obviously bizarre question of why God would need or create such a thing in the first place other than as a form of entrapment). He creates Adam and Eve devoid of any knowledge of good and evil.

Along comes a serpent, whom God must have known would be there (as per His omniscience), who tells Eve a lie. Now, regardless of whether or not God says "Don't eat from the tree," the only possible outcome of the serpent telling someone who doesn't know deception that it's OK to eat from the tree is that Eve would genuinely believe it's OK to eat from the tree, being unable to discern a lie from the truth.

So, if God creates a tree that He doesn't even need (omnipotence would mean that God doesn't require anything, so why create a forbidden tree?), inadequately prepares His creation against an evil He knows exists (Adam and Eve were innocent of knowledge of deception, yet God freely allowed a liar in the garden), and furthermore God must have foreknown the consequences of this setup, then we have the most elaborate entrapment ever perpetrated by anyone on anyone else.

Worse still, God then punished Adam and Eve for something they had no control over with a Pandora's Box of cruel and hideous amounts of suffering.

Yet, this is a "good" God?

Dropping an unnecessary forbidden tree in a garden with inadequately prepared, innocent people with a liar on the loose is no different from dropping a loaded revolver in a baby's crib.

God basically built a train, a track, a conductor, and a landmine. He put the conductor in the train, on the track, which ended up hitting a landmine and killing him. God blames the conductor for the incident.