The tree of knowledge..............

[Katzpur]

You are contradicting yourself here. If Satan is being used by God as you imply, then why would he punish him for doing his job? Satan is God's prosecuting attorney, he is the accuser of man before God. In fact Satan means accuser in Hebrew.

No I'm not. You're just not understanding me.

Satan made the choice billions of years ago to rebel against God. He has been doing everything in his power to destroy human lives since the beginning of time. He has no more power, however, than God permits him to have. A huge part of the reason we're here on earth in the first place is to learn to recognize both good and evil and to respond by always choosing the good. God therefore permits Satan to exert his influence over people in order that they might learn and grow. If we were never to be faced with opposing choices, we could not possibly progress.

 

[Quiddity]

What I want to know, besides what I already asked, is what you believe would have transpired in the lives of Adam and Eve had they never eaten the fruit?

I think they would have damaged their relationship with God eventually. Serpent or no serpent.

Would they have grown old?

I don’t think so.

Would they have gotten sick, and eventually died?

Nope.

Or would they still be alive in Eden today with the billions of descendents they’d have had by now?

That’s a rather large Garden. My guess is that if billions managed to stay right with God after having understood that X is wrong, that the descendants would be elevated to heaven like Elijah in the OT.

...........................................

Truly Kathy, I understand you all to well. What puzzles me is that you believe man had full control of their will (albeit you emphasize the power of the serpent) at all times. If this is true then God couldn’t have wanted the tree incident to transpire as it did. Which you apparently believe God did want to transpire:

God knew what He was doing and He did it for man's benefit

He either did want it to happen or He didn’t, which is it?

 

[Katzpur]

Truly Kathy, I understand you all to well. What puzzles me is that you believe man had full control of their will (albeit you emphasize the power of the serpent) at all times. If this is true then God couldn’t have wanted the tree incident to transpire as it did. Which you apparently believe God did want to transpire.

Victor, Victor, Victor... You know better than to call me Kathy.

God knew what He was doing and He did it for man's benefit

He either did want it to happen or He didn’t, which is it?

Okay, I don't know if I'm just not explaining my position very well or what, but since I seem to be doing such a crappy job of it, this is going to be my last attempt. I hope you'll understand.

I believe that God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden knowing full well that they would not be able to withstand the temptations of Satan. He allowed them to make a choice which would initially result in more pain and heartache for them, but which would ultimately be for the good of all mankind. Yes, I believe He wanted them to make the decision they did. He wanted far better things for them than for them to live in blissful ignorance for a number of years and then return to Him. He wanted them to experience real life, and to learn and grow from their experiences. He wanted them to be mortal in every sense of the word. This, I don't believe, would have ever happened had they stayed in Eden. The Fall was not an unforeseen glitch in God's plan. It was a necessary step and one I am very grateful took place.

 

[Quiddity]

Victor, Victor, Victor... You know better than to call me Kathy.

Crap....I forgot... Sorry.

Okay, I don't know if I'm just not explaining my position very well or what, but since I seem to be doing such a crappy job of it, this is going to be my last attempt. I hope you'll understand.

I believe that God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden knowing full well that they would not be able to withstand the temptations of Satan.

Perhaps it's me and not you.... Anyways, I'm willing to stick it out until we understand each other cause you are simply one of my favorite RFers..

In response to what you just said above. Did God also allow it knowing full well that Adam and Eve COULD withstand it? This really makes a big difference to us.

He allowed them to make a choice which would initially result in more pain and heartache for them, but which would ultimately be for the good of all mankind. Yes, I believe He wanted them to make the decision they did.

Now I know for sure I'm not misunderstanding you.

He wanted far better things for them than for them to live in blissful ignorance for a number of years and then return to Him. He wanted them to experience real life, and to learn and grow from their experiences. He wanted them to be mortal in every sense of the word.

Which basically goes back to my original statement in which you and nutshell said I was misunderstanding.....We are going in circles....Start with post#15 then go to post #21--
In which nutshell responded (post #21):
No. I don't believe that's a good analogy at all.
And you responded with (post #23):
Probably not until he's a little older, Victor.....
In which I responded (post #48):
No doubt. The problem is that one is intended (God wanting Adam and Eve to eat from the tree in order to grow) while the other (you just letting go and hoping for the best) is not.

To hit it home, do you think your son has to steal to understand that it is wrong? Does he have to lie in order to understand? And so on...

My son (or your son) lieing is an analogy of Adam and Eve eating from the tree. It's no different except in it's implications. All future sins can be just as beneficial and God wanted them to happen for our benefit.

This, I don't believe, would have ever happened had they stayed in Eden.

Why? If you don't see it as a possiblity in the Garden, then I don't know where you can?

The Fall was not an unforeseen glitch in God's plan.

I agree.

It was a necessary step and one I am very grateful took place.

See what I mean? If that was necessary, then me puching that one guy in the face was just as necessary. How about the time I lied to my mom or took some candy from the store?

Here is where I see you and I disagree:

Katzpur - Certain events must take place in order for us TO GET IT.

Victor - The human mind alone is sufficient enough to GET IT.

 

[nutshell]

Katzpur - Certain events must take place in order for us TO GET IT.

Victor - The human mind alone is sufficient enough to GET IT.

DING DING DING...The lightbulb just went off and I think I GET IT.

You're right, Victor, the human mind alone is sufficient enough to GET IT. BUT, what we believe is that the human mind was not sufficient enough to GET IT prior to the Fall. Therefore, the Fall was a necessary and planned part of God's greater purpose for us.

I hope Katz doesn't leave because I'd like her opinion of my post.

 

[Quiddity]

DING DING DING...The lightbulb just went off and I think I GET IT.

You're right, Victor, the human mind alone is sufficient enough to GET IT. BUT, what we believe is that the human mind was not sufficient enough to GET IT prior to the Fall. Therefore, the Fall was a necessary and planned part of God's greater purpose for us.

I hope Katz doesn't leave because I'd like her opinion of my post.

I got that understanding from you guys about 100+ posts ago. I'm by far not an LDS expert, but I did learn something as an LDS for 9 months...

So if that's the case what exactly was added to the the human person that allowed him/her to GET IT?

It seems to me that they were in fact complete before the fall. God said "and it is good". Fill me in please....

BTW, be mindful that I am looking for something inside of them that was added. Some extra zeros and ones in the human software. And if that was the case the extra zeros and ones made the will of the human person complete. That would make it incomplete prior to the fall.

 

[nutshell]

I got that understanding from you guys about 100+ posts ago. I'm by far not an LDS expert, but I did learn something as an LDS for 9 months...

So if that's the case what exactly was added to the the human person that allowed him/her to GET IT?

It seems to me that they were in fact complete before the fall. God said "and it is good". Fill me in please....

BTW, be mindful that I am looking for something inside of them that was added. Some extra zeros and ones in the human software. And if that was the case the extra zeros and ones made the will of the human person complete. That would make it incomplete prior to the fall.

What was added? Dialectic knowledge. They were able to understand right/wrong, good/evil, virtue/vice, etc...in a way they hadn't before. This is demonstrated by their sudden concern at being naked after they ate the fruit when there was no concern prior to eating the fruit.

Perhaps I'll understand your POV better if you can clarify for me the difference in their attitude towards being naked before and after eating the fruit.

 

[Quiddity]

What was added? Dialectic knowledge. They were able to understand right/wrong, good/evil, virtue/vice, etc...in a way they hadn't before. This is demonstrated by their sudden concern at being naked after they ate the fruit when there was no concern prior to eating the fruit.

Perhaps I'll understand your POV better if you can clarify for me the difference in their attitude towards being naked before and after eating the fruit.

Sure...it was expediated conditioning. In otherwords, they could have very easily reached that point through repetitious conditioning and explanations. But since they took the route of disobeying, they gained immediate knowledge that could otherwise have been explained by other means.

But nothing was added, the process was simply expediated.

 

[nutshell]

Sure...it was expediated conditioning. In otherwords, they could have very easily reached that point through repetitious conditioning and explanations. But since they took the route of disobeying, they gained immediate knowledge that could otherwise have been explained by other means.

But nothing was added, the process was simply expediated.

No. I disagree. Nothing was expediated. There was no possibility of learning what they did without the Fall - they could have Eternity and wouldn't progress to where they were after the Fall. It was not possible.

 

[Quiddity]

No. I disagree. Nothing was expediated. There was no possibility of learning what they did without the Fall - they could have Eternity and wouldn't progress to where they were after the Fall. It was not possible.

I think I have grasped that much. But you still haven’t explained what exactly was added. Dialectic knowledge in its original form was "investigation by dialogue". No opposing force (like that of the tree) was even needed. Everything we needed to grow was there from the beginning.

Then you get into the problem of God saying “don’t eat from the tree” when in reality he did want them to eat from the tree. I don’t believe in such a deceptive or contradictory God. We certainly do disagree.

 

[nutshell]

I think I have grasped that much. But you still haven’t explained what exactly was added. Dialectic knowledge in its original form was "investigation by dialogue". No opposing force (like that of the tree) was even needed. Everything we needed to grow was there from the beginning.

Then you get into the problem of God saying “don’t eat from the tree” when in reality he did want them to eat from the tree. I don’t believe in such a deceptive or contradictory God. We certainly do disagree.

We have such fundamentally different views I fear you haven't "grasped that much." Your continued questions and misapplications of what Katz and I have shared are evidence of this

Until I can think of a better way to explain it, I'm done. I've explained what was added, but you've denied it because it's contrary to your personal beliefs.

 

[Quiddity]

We have such fundamentally different views I fear you haven't "grasped that much." Your continued questions and misapplications of what Katz and I have shared are evidence of this

Until I can think of a better way to explain it, I'm done. I've explained what was added, but you've denied it because it's contrary to your personal beliefs.

So you felt the need to better explain it, but I'm the one that misunderstood? :areyoucra

As much as you may want to excuse yourself out of this, I understood quite clear. I hung in there to even make sure I did, yet you feel the need to tell me that I didn't grasp it enough. Oh well...

 

[nutshell]

So you felt the need to better explain it, but I'm the one that misunderstood? :areyoucra

As much as you may want to excuse yourself out of this, I understood quite clear. I hung in there to even make sure I did, yet you feel the need to tell me that I didn't grasp it enough. Oh well...

I'm sorry if I was offensive I was rushed and in a bad mood. It probably would have been better if I had waited to post.

However, it is clear to me that there is a disconnect and I can't figure it out where. I feel I've explained it sufficiently and you feel I have not. Obviously, there's a disconnect and I don't want to place blame. So, instead of abandoning this, I'll think on it and get back to you. Maybe it would be best to start from scratch. What do you think?

 

[Katzpur]

DING DING DING...The lightbulb just went off and I think I GET IT.

You're right, Victor, the human mind alone is sufficient enough to GET IT. BUT, what we believe is that the human mind was not sufficient enough to GET IT prior to the Fall. Therefore, the Fall was a necessary and planned part of God's greater purpose for us.

I hope Katz doesn't leave because I'd like her opinion of my post.

Well, here I am. I think you made a really good point, Nutshell. There is simply no way that Adam and Eve could have progressed in any way, shape or form without being faced with choices. It is impossible to make a correct choice when there is no alternative. God didn't want them to just exist in blissful ignorance forever. He wanted them to attain all that a son and daughter of deity has the potential to attain, and until they ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, they were not in a position to know the difference between good and evil. It just doesn't get much more straightforward than that, in my opinion.

 

[Katzpur]

So you felt the need to better explain it, but I'm the one that misunderstood? :areyoucra

As much as you may want to excuse yourself out of this, I understood quite clear. I hung in there to even make sure I did, yet you feel the need to tell me that I didn't grasp it enough. Oh well...

VIctor,

I sincerely appreciate your honest attempt to understand our position. I give you a lot of credit for that. I think it comes down to our understanding of the Plan of Salvation starting with the Pre-existence and continuing all the through to the point when some of God's children have proven themselves so worthy that He will choose to exalt them and allow them to progress forever more. I realize that this notion is so far removed from mainstream Christian thought, but to us, it puts the Fall into perspective and just adds a dimension that may just be baffling to other Christians. We just don't see an endless life in Eden as being what God wanted for His children. We believe He wanted much, much more for them. I know you've tried to understand, but we've tried to explain, too, and just don't seem to be getting our point across in such a way that it's logical to you.

 

[Quiddity]

I'm sorry if I was offensive I was rushed and in a bad mood. It probably would have been better if I had waited to post.

It's cool.

However, it is clear to me that there is a disconnect and I can't figure it out where. I feel I've explained it sufficiently and you feel I have not. Obviously, there's a disconnect and I don't want to place blame. So, instead of abandoning this, I'll think on it and get back to you. Maybe it would be best to start from scratch. What do you think?

Sounds good to me...

 

[Quiddity]

I sincerely appreciate your honest attempt to understand our position. I give you a lot of credit for that. I think it comes down to our understanding of the Plan of Salvation starting with the Pre-existence and continuing all the through to the point when some of God's children have proven themselves so worthy that He will choose to exalt them and allow them to progress forever more.

I noted this connection a while back. Although I do think that adopting a more RC view would have little affect on LDS doctrine if explained properly (which I failed to do). We have good reason to dislike the idea that the tree activated growth. This is a very Gnostic and Left-hand view of the fall. It really does affect how people see God and humans in general.

I realize that this notion is so far removed from mainstream Christian thought, but to us, it puts the Fall into perspective and just adds a dimension that may just be baffling to other Christians. We just don't see an endless life in Eden as being what God wanted for His children. We believe He wanted much, much more for them.

How is this any different from us? We don't disagree with this.

I know you've tried to understand, but we've tried to explain, too, and just don't seem to be getting our point across in such a way that it's logical to you.

I really wasn't trying to complicate the whole thing Katz. I hope we can try again.

 

[Katzpur]

Although I do think that adopting a more RC view would have little affect on LDS doctrine if explained properly (which I failed to do). We have good reason to dislike the idea that the tree activated growth.

Well, let me ask you then...

What do you believe "knowledge of good and evil" to be? Why do you believe that God did not want Adam and Eve to have a knowledge of good and evil?

This is a very Gnostic and Left-hand view of the fall. It really does affect how people see God and humans in general.

It probably does. Latter-day Saints don't see humanity as a different species from deity. We just see humanity as not being as muture, complete and perfect -- but as having the potential to attain the same maturity, completeness and perfection as deity. I'm sure it does seem like a left-handed path to you, but it doesn't to us.

I really wasn't trying to complicate the whole thing

Katz. I hope we can try again.

You weren't complicating anything. I just felt as if we weren't making much progress and were both starting to get a little bit frustrated.

 

[kreeden]

God gave two commandments: Don't eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge and multiply and repenish the earth.

These commandments conflicted because Adam and Eve would not be able to procreate until they had eaten of the Tree, yet they were told not to do that.

Eve is tricked by Satan and she partakes of the Tree then gives to Adam and he partakes.

Because they broke one of God's commandments they become spiritually separated from God.

Sounds to me like a parent looking for an excuss to kick a kid out of the house ?

Sorry . I'm sure I'm missing something here , but can't find where it was addressed , if it was ? But it sounds to me like a parent telling their daughter that they want grandchildren , and they want then NOW . But at the same time , they are say " If you get pregnant , then you are no child of mine ". ?????

It doesn't make God sound like a very good parent IMHO . I understand the need for growth , but there has to be better ways .

 

[Quiddity]

Well, let me ask you then...

What do you believe "knowledge of good and evil" to be? Why do you believe that God did not want Adam and Eve to have a knowledge of good and evil?

I think he didn't want them to eat from the tree because he clearly said He didn't. The way you worded your question is a clear indication of your bias. But that's ok...
I think God did want them to gain knowledge, just not through the tree. As I said before, I can gain knowledge of "good and evil" without even committing it.

It probably does. Latter-day Saints don't see humanity as a different species from deity. We just see humanity as not being as muture, complete and perfect -- but as having the potential to attain the same maturity, completeness and perfection as deity. I'm sure it does seem like a left-handed path to you, but it doesn't to us.

What was Gnostic and Left handed is that the event of the tree was necessary. I did not intend to take it any further then that. This isn't an opinion or interpretation; you can ask them yourself if you wish.

You weren't complicating anything. I just felt as if we weren't making much progress and were both starting to get a little bit frustrated.

I was actually enjoying the conversation. Wasn't anywhere close to frustrated.