learner Daniel
Member
sure
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The trinity is false - I have proof
- Thread starter Starlight
- Start date
learner Daniel
Member
The Sermon on the Mount and the teachings of the Apostle Paul share many similarities, including:
Messages
Both Paul and Jesus taught about the humanity and deity of Christ, his death and resurrection, and that faith alone brings salvation.
Law
Paul taught that Christians did not need to follow the Law of Moses, which was controversial at the time.
Final judgment
Some say that Jesus and Paul's teachings about the final judgment are similar, even though Jesus used more fire metaphors
Similarities of Jesus and Paul:
- Both Jesus and Paul were born and raised Jewish, and neither one of them saw himself as departing from the truth of Judaism and the Jewish God. They both understood that they were proclaiming the “true” form of Judaism. Neither of them thought they were staring a “new religion.”
- Both Jesus and Paul proclaimed an apocalyptic message rooted in the categories of Jewish apocalypticism, which understood that the current age was ruled by the forces of evil, but a new age was coming in which God would destroy the forces of evil and bring in a utopian kingdom here on earth.
- Both Jesus and Paul thought that this climactic moment of all human history was soon to come, it was right around the corner, it would be here within their own generation.
- Both Jesus and Paul dismissed what they saw as the Pharisaic concern for the scrupulous observance of the Jewish Law as a way to obtain a right standing before God.
- Both Jesus and Paul taught the ultimate need of faith and saw the love one’s neighbor as the summing up and fulfilling of the law, as the most important thing the followers of God could do.
- The Messages of Jesus and Paul: Basically the Same or Fundamentally Different? | The Bart Ehrman Blog
Harmonizing Teachings of Jesus and Paul
Apparent conflicts between the teachings of Jesus and Paul are not real and can be harmonized by looking at context, terms, and themes.
christinscripture.com
- Mt. 5:17 = Gal. 5:14. Christ fulfilled the Law by His supreme love of His neighbour (us) as Himself.
- There are times when Paul's inspired commentary opens up some of the Lord's more difficult sayings. "Be you therefore perfect" has always been hard to understand (Mt. 5:48). Paul's comment is: "Be perfected" (2 Cor. 13:11). This is quite different to how many may take it- 'Let God perfect you' is the message.
- Mt. 6:2,3 = 1 Tim. 4:8. The implication is that we aren't to take Mt. 6:2,3 (" they have their reward" ) as implying that we have no reward in this life. We do (cp. Mt. 19:29).
- Mt. 6:14 = Eph. 4:32. Jesus said: " If you forgive, you'll be forgiven" . Paul subtly changes the tenses: " You've been forgiven already, so forgive" . It's as if Paul is saying: 'Think carefully about Mt. 6:14. Don't think it means 'If you do this, I'll do that for you'. No. God has forgiven you. But that forgiveness is conditional on the fact that in the future you will forgive people. If you don't, then that forgiveness you've already been given is cancelled. This is what Jesus really had in mind'. This would suggest a very very close analysis of those simple words of Jesus, using all the logic and knowledge of Biblical principles which Paul had.
- Mt. 6:24 = Tit. 1:9. Holding to God as your master rather than mammon is achieved through holding on to His word.
- Mt. 6:25 = Phil. 4:6. How do we obey that command to " take no thought for your life" ? By praying consciously for every little thing that you need in daily life, e.g. daily bread.
- Mt. 7:21 = Rom. 2:13. Paul saw the " Lord, Lord" people of the parable as the Jews of the first century who initially responded enthusiastically to the Gospel.
- Mt. 7:22 = 1 Cor. 13:2. To say " Lord, Lord" without really knowing Christ is living without love. Thus Paul saw an association between a lack of true love and an external show of appreciation of Christ's Lordship. Not doing what Christ says is a lack of love, in Paul's mind. If we appreciate this, we will see that those who are ignorant of Christ's words cannot show true love. Biblically ignorant Christians need to think through the implications of this
- Mt. 7:23 = 2 Tim. 2:19. Depart from sin now, or you'll depart from Christ at the judgment. This is Paul's classic way of making plays on words; again an indication of how his writings are partly a product of his own meditation upon and familiarity with the Gospels.
learner Daniel
Member
The texts says that paul got information directly from Jesus himself by revelations. wow
learner Daniel
Member
The information is spread out in his letters.
learner Daniel
Member
Don't limit God, he is able and did make matter from nothing.
learner Daniel
Member
That does not show the Trinity - Jesus is "the Logos" .. what does the Logos mean ? .. that Jesus is "The Word" the Physical representation of "Gods Word" according to the author of John. .. so of course the Father is in Jesus .. but this does not turn Jesus into "The Father" .. No .. Nyet .. Nada
The Sermon on the Mount and the teachings of the Apostle Paul share many similarities, including:
Messages
Both Paul and Jesus taught about the humanity and deity of Christ, his death and resurrection, and that faith alone brings salvation.
Law
Paul taught that Christians did not need to follow the Law of Moses, which was controversial at the time.
Final judgment
Some say that Jesus and Paul's teachings about the final judgment are similar, even though Jesus used more fire metaphors
Similarities of Jesus and Paul:
- Both Jesus and Paul were born and raised Jewish, and neither one of them saw himself as departing from the truth of Judaism and the Jewish God. They both understood that they were proclaiming the “true” form of Judaism. Neither of them thought they were staring a “new religion.”
- Both Jesus and Paul proclaimed an apocalyptic message rooted in the categories of Jewish apocalypticism, which understood that the current age was ruled by the forces of evil, but a new age was coming in which God would destroy the forces of evil and bring in a utopian kingdom here on earth.
- Both Jesus and Paul thought that this climactic moment of all human history was soon to come, it was right around the corner, it would be here within their own generation.
- Both Jesus and Paul dismissed what they saw as the Pharisaic concern for the scrupulous observance of the Jewish Law as a way to obtain a right standing before God.
- Both Jesus and Paul taught the ultimate need of faith and saw the love one’s neighbor as the summing up and fulfilling of the law, as the most important thing the followers of God could do.
- The Messages of Jesus and Paul: Basically the Same or Fundamentally Different? | The Bart Ehrman Blog
Harmonizing Teachings of Jesus and Paul
Apparent conflicts between the teachings of Jesus and Paul are not real and can be harmonized by looking at context, terms, and themes.christinscripture.com
- Mt. 5:17 = Gal. 5:14. Christ fulfilled the Law by His supreme love of His neighbour (us) as Himself.
- There are times when Paul's inspired commentary opens up some of the Lord's more difficult sayings. "Be you therefore perfect" has always been hard to understand (Mt. 5:48). Paul's comment is: "Be perfected" (2 Cor. 13:11). This is quite different to how many may take it- 'Let God perfect you' is the message.
- Mt. 6:2,3 = 1 Tim. 4:8. The implication is that we aren't to take Mt. 6:2,3 (" they have their reward" ) as implying that we have no reward in this life. We do (cp. Mt. 19:29).
- Mt. 6:14 = Eph. 4:32. Jesus said: " If you forgive, you'll be forgiven" . Paul subtly changes the tenses: " You've been forgiven already, so forgive" . It's as if Paul is saying: 'Think carefully about Mt. 6:14. Don't think it means 'If you do this, I'll do that for you'. No. God has forgiven you. But that forgiveness is conditional on the fact that in the future you will forgive people. If you don't, then that forgiveness you've already been given is cancelled. This is what Jesus really had in mind'. This would suggest a very very close analysis of those simple words of Jesus, using all the logic and knowledge of Biblical principles which Paul had.
- Mt. 6:24 = Tit. 1:9. Holding to God as your master rather than mammon is achieved through holding on to His word.
- Mt. 6:25 = Phil. 4:6. How do we obey that command to " take no thought for your life" ? By praying consciously for every little thing that you need in daily life, e.g. daily bread.
- Mt. 7:21 = Rom. 2:13. Paul saw the " Lord, Lord" people of the parable as the Jews of the first century who initially responded enthusiastically to the Gospel.
- Mt. 7:22 = 1 Cor. 13:2. To say " Lord, Lord" without really knowing Christ is living without love. Thus Paul saw an association between a lack of true love and an external show of appreciation of Christ's Lordship. Not doing what Christ says is a lack of love, in Paul's mind. If we appreciate this, we will see that those who are ignorant of Christ's words cannot show true love. Biblically ignorant Christians need to think through the implications of this
- Mt. 7:23 = 2 Tim. 2:19. Depart from sin now, or you'll depart from Christ at the judgment. This is Paul's classic way of making plays on words; again an indication of how his writings are partly a product of his own meditation upon and familiarity with the Gospels.
Don't know which snake charmer site you copied and pasted from but, this is really terrible spaghetti on wall - wild goose hunt fallacy. You have succeeded however in finding the God of confusion and the wolf in sheeps clothing prophecied by Lord Jesus in Matt 7.
The claim is not tht Paul and Jesus are similar that needs be shown but the claim that Jesus taught "Sola Fide" - Faith Alone. Nothing in what you post addresses or supports this claim. I agree that Paul stated the Golden Rule -the main Rule that Jesus taught .. I also agree that Jesus broke the covenant with Lord YHWH and Lord Jealous and thus was not bound to the law. ..
What Jesus did not teach was a "Faith Alone" salvation formulation. I don't know that Paul taught such a thing either however there were early Pauline Christians that were making this claim .. Nor am I saying that all of Paul is uninspired. I am only addressing the places where the teachings of Paul are in conflict with the teachings of Jesus .. from an academic perspective I am going to default to the teachings of Jesus.
What is really irritating though - and a snake charmer site trade-mark .. is posting scripture attributed to Paul - but was not written by Paul -- and which deveates from the authentic writings of Paul .. 2 Tim 2:19. and then it is falsely claimed that this passage has something to do with Matt 7:23 - whithout explaining what .. but the claim itself preposterously false .. as one expects when cut and pasting from Snake charmer site.
The irritating part is you don't realize what you are posting ..and of course Jesus thought he was starting a new religion. New Covenant = New Religion.
?? - The voice in Paul's head may well have been the voice of Jesus ... or it may have been a voice he attributed to Jesus .. but regardless .. who cares as this has nothing to do with the Trinity with respect to the fact that Jesus never taught that he was God "The Father" .. and not that it matters .. for reasons previously explained, but Paul does not teach that Jesus is "The Father" either .. but again .. we don't care what Paul thinks as we are after what Jesus taught
You are the one who limits God .. the second you claim God is "unlimited"
the claim that God defacto made matter from "Nothing" is a preposterous falsehood .. something you simply don't know .. but are claiming to know for certain. This is woefull deception of self and others. In addition - nowhere in the Bible is it claimed that God made matter out of nothing. ... not that this would help you if it did but, just saying.
walt
Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
John 3:16 and John 17:3 The way I look at it, all anyone needs is only one scripture, because Jesus never used the word trinity or any of the words that define the word trinity.
It's not very hard to disprove something Jesus never explains.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
That neither supports nor negates the concept of the Trinity.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
The above in no way disproves the concept of the Trinity, but then no one can prove it either as it is an abstract concept.
IMO, it makes no difference to me one way or another as it is virtually impossible to prove or disprove such a concept.
Nothing comes from nothing so for there to be something there must be something
In other words, the universe did Not come from nothing but at Psalm 104:30 from God's spirit ( power/strength - Isaiah 40:26)
This something is Someone and according to Psalm 90:2 God had No beginning, thus God was 'before' the beginning of anything else
However, pre-human heavenly Jesus had his start "IN" the beginning Not ' before ' the beginning as his God was
Plus, like us (Ecclesiastes 12:7 B) God's spirit also is Not a person but a genderless "it"- Numbers 11:17,25
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
The Trinitarian concept does not posit that creation came from nothing.
Can't help but notice the word " it " ^ above^ used in connection to the trinity concept or lack of "it"The above in no way disproves the concept of the Trinity, but then no one can prove "it" either as " it " is an abstract concept.
IMO, it makes no difference to me one way or another as it is virtually impossible to prove or disprove such a concept.
People don't think of their triune God as an "it" but God's spirit (Psalm 104:30) is a neuter "it" - Numbers 11:17,25
So, a genderless "it" is Not a person
Just like a car or a ships sometimes is called as a 'she' but they remain as a neuter "it"
Greek grammar rules allow for a neuter to be referred to as a pronoun he or him, but that does Not change an "it" into a person
Even our 'spirit' is also a genderless "it" at Ecclesiastes 12:7 B
A while back a Southern Baptist leaving a restaurant at night saw me and said isn't it wonderful God made everything out of nothing
To me, I said that God's spirit is not a nothing - Psalm 104:30 - but something
As far as I know Baptist's do believe or accept a triune-person god
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
The "it" refers to a hypothetical associate between God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, thus "it" does not in any way deny their existence, nor is it a reference to three separate entities.
Please post what verse or verses you have in mind _______________________
God sent forth His spirit used in creating as per Psalm 104:30
God used His power and strength, His dynamic energy to create both the invisible and visible realm of existence - Isaiah 40:26
' the God ' ' the Jesus ' and holy spirit
Who is the One who sends forth His spirit at Psalm 104:30 KJV
learner Daniel
Member
They are reliable sites.