• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The trinity is false - I have proof

walt

Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33

Walt I am not sure what you believe. Are you Unitarian or what friend?
I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Biblical Unitarian's do not believe Jesus was first from heaven.
Our belief: Jesus is really Gods one and only son or only begotten son, John 1:14, 3:16; 1st John 4:9, 10

These verses explain:
Jesus says he came from heaven John 3:13, 6:38, 6:51, 8:23: 1 Corinthians 15:7
Jesus in prayer to his Father talks about a time with his Father before the world was John 17:5
The Father gave Jesus glory and love before the founding of the world John 17:24
By means of him all things were created Colossians 1:16, John 1:3
 
Last edited:

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
That's really quite an insulting statement, and again you don't really get what "myth" actually means theologically. IOW, you know far less than you think, so maybe study and come back down to Earth with the rest of us peons.
Well from what I understand, some believe the Bible is all mythical but not necessarily a lie. If it's not a lie, then maybe it's true? Although of course maybe it's a true myth not a false myth.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Not everything in ever book is accurate, and that includes the Bible, thus I personally don't make an idol out of it.
So again when someone plays to Mary maybe they are praying to a mythical figure that's maybe not a lie. Although by some accounts definitely a myth.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
That's really quite an insulting statement,
Why?
and again you don't really get what "myth" actually means theologically. IOW, you know far less than you think, so maybe study and come back down to Earth with the rest of us peons.
What myth means theologically?? Didn't you say the whole Bible is mythical and later said myths don't necessarily mean they're not true. So again, what about prayer to Mary, Joseph or Jesus? People praying to mythical figures but maybe they're not false myths??
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
That's really quite an insulting statement, and again you don't really get what "myth" actually means theologically. IOW, you know far less than you think, so maybe study and come back down to Earth with the rest of us peons.
Why is it insulting? Calm down. I believe I do understand the "theological" understanding of myth. Right now no more, Jesus said a house built on sand won't last. Remember? End of discussion probably and thanks for your thoughts on it. Maybe God is a myth too as far as you're concerned. Why get insulted?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
That's really quite an insulting statement, and again you don't really get what "myth" actually means theologically. IOW, you know far less than you think, so maybe study and come back down to Earth with the rest of us peons.
Getting back to your interpretation and if the account about Jesus is mythical but not necessarily untrue, when he said his followers are to love one another, I guess that's open insofar as it goes. Maybe he said it, maybe he didn't and maybe it's true and how it's applied can be subjective. Thank you, metis. No need to get insulted but if you must that's how it is. No more, winding down especially since you say you know much more than I do. No problem.
 

learner Daniel

Active Member
''summary book of these threads ''?
It would be known as an executive summary is a brief document that summarizes a longer report, proposal, or group of related documents --- in this case this thread. It's often the first thing a reader sees and is usually intended for top-level managers.
 

learner Daniel

Active Member
@learner Daniel , this article is funny, actually.

The title refers to JW’s as “masters of misquotation”, then the author promptly misquotes the publication!

Your article states, “What about the charge that the Trinity originated in Greek philosophy?”

There was no “charge.” And ‘Reasoning from the Scriptures’ says no such thing! It simply says the terms used to describe the Trinity, are Greek philosophical terms not found in the Bible. And those are McKenzie’s words, anyway.

If the article will not be honest in presenting the facts, we certainly can’t believe its conclusions.

So, I guess you’re Catholic, huh?
This is just something you can think about, I don’t want to put you on the spot by expecting an answer.

But really, the RCC has a bloody reputation! In addition to gruesomely torturing innocent people, its hierarchy has supported warfare almost from its inception!
Instead of following Christ’s command to ‘love your brother’ (John 13:34), which is an identifying mark of Jesus’ disciples (John 13:35), they disobeyed Jesus… Catholic has slaughtered Catholic with the clergy’s approval, due to nothing but geography and politics!
They haven’t supported the Prince of Peace when it really counted; rather, they’ve joined with the world, something Christ said not to do. (John 15:19) They’ve ‘spotted’ / ‘stained’ / ‘polluted’ themselves (James 1:27), which is unacceptable worship.

Protestantism has done the same.

Since truth comes from God (Luke 10:21), yet someone is disobedient to Him…. why should God give them anything? IOW, why should we expect them to have the truth?
Titus 1:16
Not Catholic, just a historical christian. I see the part you refer to is the questioner's part, not the answer that was given.
 

learner Daniel

Active Member
LOL :) .. sorry friend but if you realized how ridiculous and self deprecatory your claim is .. you would have a chuckle too :)

The definition of the Trinity is nonsense -- no + sense.. the definition of the trinity is "Not Understandable" Not by anyone .. ot even God ..

like YHWH = I am that I am .. not even a name actually .. but never mind that .. the definition of the Triity is not understand that you not understand ..

Regardless -- understand or not .. The Trinity concept is not to be found in the origial story . sorry .. o_Oo_O
I already posted bowman's biblical outline of the trinity many times that shows that the Trinity concept is in fact in the Bible.
 

learner Daniel

Active Member
When I was a Christian, I believed in the hypostatic union, which is the theological belief that Jesus took on human nature yet remained fully God when he was a man. It encapsulates the belief regarding his humanity and divinity (two natures) in a single hypostasis and is in conjunction with the Trinity doctrine.
The hypostatic union is the term used to describe how God the Son, Jesus Christ, took on a human nature, yet remained fully God at the same time. Jesus always had been God (John 8:58, 10:30), but at the incarnation Jesus became a human being (John 1:14). The addition of the human nature to the divine nature is Jesus, the God-man. This is the hypostatic union, Jesus Christ, one Person, fully God and fully man.

Jesus’ two natures, human and divine, are inseparable. Jesus will forever be the God-man, fully God and fully human, two distinct natures in one Person. Jesus’ humanity and divinity are not mixed, but are united without loss of separate identity. Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6, 19:28) and other times in the power of His deity (John 11:43; Matthew 14:18-21). In both, Jesus’ actions were from His one Person. Jesus had two natures, but only one personality.

The doctrine of the hypostatic union is an attempt to explain how Jesus could be both God and man at the same time. It is ultimately, though, a doctrine we are incapable of fully understanding. It is impossible for us to fully understand how God works. We, as human beings with finite minds, should not expect to totally comprehend an infinite God. Jesus is God’s Son in that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35). But that does not mean Jesus did not exist before He was conceived. Jesus has always existed (John 8:58, 10:30). When Jesus was conceived, He became a human being in addition to being God (John 1:1, 14).

Jesus is both God and man. Jesus has always been God, but He did not become a human being until He was conceived in Mary. Jesus became a human being in order to identify with us in our struggles (Hebrews 2:17) and, more importantly, so that He could die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins (Philippians 2:5-11). In summary, the hypostatic union teaches that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, that there is no mixture or dilution of either nature, and that He is one united Person, forever.
 

learner Daniel

Active Member
When I was a Christian, I believed in the hypostatic union, which is the theological belief that Jesus took on human nature yet remained fully God when he was a man. It encapsulates the belief regarding his humanity and divinity (two natures) in a single hypostasis and is in conjunction with the Trinity doctrine.

True friend
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
I already posted bowman's biblical outline of the trinity many times that shows that the Trinity concept is in fact in the Bible.

Not the Trinity doctrine invented after Nicene .. and certainly not in the original story :) Sure we have various Trinities in the OT === YHWH - Asherah - Anat .. Father Mother Daughter .. .. very common in the Israelite religion. and Bowman has nothing to say different ... what are you talking about. .. you don't even realize what it is you are cutting and pasting from the snake charmer sites .. Bowman's definition of the Trinity is as I told you .. "The definition of the Trinity is nonsense -- no + sense.. the definition of the trinity is "Not Understandable" Not by anyone .. not even God ." that is the definition Bowman gives ..
 

learner Daniel

Active Member
OK .. we are moving from the Bible to metaphysics .. which is fine .. I shall go point form

1) The only thing we know for sure is that we exist .. how we came to exist ... we know a little .. Matter and Energy (Stuff) came together in a certain configuration (you or me) that one day opened its eyes and became aware of its own existense

1a) Existence is infinite - From 1) we can deduce that there was a finite probability of this this event happening M+E = Awareness
1c) in an infinite amount of time - all finite probabilities happen./repeat an infinite number of times .. and thus Matter and Energy will once again combine in the same configuration as you ..

Thats it that is all .. the only thing we know for sure .. and one thing we can deduce from knowing .. the question we ask is where does the soul go in between cycles ? .. and is there an invisible hand at the wheel ?

2) Heaven -- the way station -- in between adventures. So when you die and your soul goes to heaven -- what is the song that will play upon your arrival through the pearly gates .. and who will be waiting for you :)

3) Rules - "What wait a minute .. not supposed to be Rules in heaven" --- relax in general that is true .. but even heaven has a few.

3a) Rule 1 - Absolutely no Praising of the Most High (Jah) - after the first trillion years - every entity Jah met .. doing nothing but blowing smoke up his arse .. 24/7 52 weeks a year got very repetative to the point of starting to drive Jah Rasta wacky. So if Jah happens by -- likely in Sandals with a corn cob pipe filled with Heavenly Hash .. just be cool .. do not fall to the ground crying out "Lord Lord" Matt 7:21

3b) Vacation Rule -- Now when you get settled in heaven -- see some old souls ..you can enjoy 1 billion channels on the TV. You can go to the Vacation channels .. like a reality TV show .. you can see what one of the billions of worlds is like .. and after hanging out in heaven for 1000 or so years .. you may wish to take a Vacation to one of these worlds.

3b1) The Blue Pill - Rule 2. So you book your vacation - the Travel agent will then give you a blue pill .. you will go back to your flat .. take the Pill .. lie down and will fall asleep. When you wake up .. you will be on vacation.. but Rule 2 is that you will not remember your past .. while on vacation .. as what would be the point ? Everyone .. everytime something went wrong .. knowing where they are going to end up .. will just jump off a bridge. .. Right .... Oops .. the wife walked out on me today ... "Poof" back to Heaven.

So this is why you have no memory of your past life .. you might get glimpses here and there in your dreams .. but in general you will not have access to your memories of previous vacations ... the hard drive is returned to you when you get back to heaven after vacation.

Notice that the Soul "The I AM" .. can not be capacitated by the fleshy abode until around 22 weeks .. when the wiring of the brain is completed. We can measure this with the EEG - Electroencephalogram .. the brain lights up like an xmas tree .. ..the "I Am" moment .. when the blob of Matter and Energy realizes it exists .. and that is all we know.
Rule #1 don't pee on my toilet seat. Ok, I am falling asleep
 

learner Daniel

Active Member
Not the Trinity doctrine invented after Nicene .. and certainly not in the original story :) Sure we have various Trinities in the OT === YHWH - Asherah - Anat .. Father Mother Daughter .. .. very common in the Israelite religion. and Bowman has nothing to say different ... what are you talking about. .. you don't even realize what it is you are cutting and pasting from the snake charmer sites .. Bowman's definition of the Trinity is as I told you .. "The definition of the Trinity is nonsense -- no + sense.. the definition of the trinity is "Not Understandable" Not by anyone .. not even God ." that is the definition Bowman gives ..
Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

“O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever” (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

“For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water” (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

“In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever” (n. 7; PG 5.988).
“We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.’ Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.” (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

“The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,’ and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . ‘” (Against Heresies X.l)
 

learner Daniel

Active Member
The Didache
“After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).

Ignatius of Antioch
“[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).

Justin Martyr
“We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein” (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).

Theophilus of Antioch
“It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom” (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).

Irenaeus
“For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit” (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian
“We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit” (Against Praxeas 2 [A.D. 216]).
 

learner Daniel

Active Member
Ignatius a.d. 30–107
Since, also, there is but one unbegotten Being, God, even the Father; and one only-begotten Son, God, the Word and man; and one Comforter, the Spirit of truth; and also one preaching, and one faith, and one baptism;
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians Chapter IV

But the Holy Spirit does not speak His own things, but those of Christ, and that not from himself, but from the Lord; even as the Lord also announced to us the things that He received from the Father. For, says He, “the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father’s, who sent Me.” And says He of the Holy Spirit, “He shall not speak of Himself, but whatsoever things He shall hear from Me.” And He says of Himself to the Father, “I have,” says He, “glorified Thee upon the earth; I have finished the work which, Thou gavest Me; I have manifested Thy name to men.” And of the Holy Ghost, “He shall glorify Me, for He receives of Mine.”
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians Chapter IX
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
LOL :) .. sorry friend but if you realized how ridiculous and self deprecatory your claim is .. you would have a chuckle too :)

The definition of the Trinity is nonsense -- no + sense.. the definition of the trinity is "Not Understandable" Not by anyone .. ot even God ..

like YHWH = I am that I am .. not even a name actually .. but never mind that .. the definition of the Triity is not understand that you not understand ..

Regardless -- understand or not .. The Trinity concept is not to be found in the origial story . sorry .. o_Oo_O
A person can understand something yet not agree with it. Or don't you think so?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I already posted bowman's biblical outline of the trinity many times that shows that the Trinity concept is in fact in the Bible.
Not to an honest observer. The Bible reveals that the Son (Jesus or the Word) was GIVEN all power and authority. Matthew 28:18 - "Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." How do you feel about that?
 
Top