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The Trinity is Wrong
- Thread starter croak
- Start date
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe that is the difference between a Christian and a born again Christian. You learn from scripture. The born again Christian learns form Jesus.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe Athanasius had a different view of the Trinity that did not prevail. There is little doubt that they all believed in the Trinity.
I believe that is not everyone's definition of the Trinity and although one that Athanasius espoused not one upheld by the council.
What version of the Trinity do you believe St. Athanasius believed? What works of his have you read to come to such a conclusion? If you know of works in which he disagrees with Nicea, I'd be interested to see them.
St. Athanasius' own Statement of Faith (dated to roughly 328 AD) would suggest that he did believe in the Nicene definition: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204.x.ii.html
St. Athanasius also gave a defense of Nicea: Here he upholds the Council as binding, authoritative and legitimate, and here he defends its definitions of the Son, as well as its definitions of the Council's use of "one in essence". He cites other, earlier Church Fathers who espoused the same faith as that declared at Nicea.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I have only read the Athanasian Creed. It espouses God in three persons and the Nicene Creed does not. And that distinction is made even before the confusion in English with the word person which can have many meanings that are not consistent with the Trinity.
Aha, that makes more sense. The Athanasian Creed was actually written long after St. Athanasius died (it was written in the 500's at the earliest), and is not a reflection of his theology.
The Nicene Creed was later added to by the First Council of Constantinople, which did include an explicit confession of the Trinity; the original Nicene Creed was initially written only to combat Arianism and define what the Church believed about Jesus. Only later did it become necessary to defend the Holy Spirit, and by extension the Trinity as a whole.
Palehorse
Active Member
If I come to a T in the middle of the road, which direction is the wrong direction and which is the right direction?
The FATHER(knowledge from your dad)~touch your forehead
The SUN(Christ)~touch your heart
The HOLY SPIRIT(Holy spirits are from GOD, spirits are from earth)~touch your left and right
Whenever I come to a t in the middle of the road... I go forward.
The FATHER(knowledge from your dad)~touch your forehead
The SUN(Christ)~touch your heart
The HOLY SPIRIT(Holy spirits are from GOD, spirits are from earth)~touch your left and right
Whenever I come to a t in the middle of the road... I go forward.
Coder
Active Member
Hi, I have a decades-long background as a Trinitarian (Catholic). I know you are sincere but I think at some point we may have to just admit that the Trinity theology doesn't make sense and the terminology is from dealing with Greek/Roman/pagans. I think Jews and the early Church know that using the term "Holy Spirit" from the OT (remember the NT was not even written/canonized yet) would distinguish the _one_ true God from pagan gods - paganism had a pervasive concept of "father gods" and "son gods"
http://www.vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01021998_p-24_en.html
The reference to the Jewish Roots and that the Holy Spirit has never been understood as a person in Judaism (including IMHO by Jesus Himself and the disciples) is a clue IMHO that the Church is making gentle moves away from the Greek/Roman/pagan influences and terminology and back to the Jewish roots. The tree that you and all Christians are grafted onto. The tree that never understood God as having parts/persons (Read Jewish articles about why Elohim is neither referring to multiple "gods" nor multiple persons who are God.)
Also, I think the terminology used in Scripture itself is "parabolic" (a parable) using "father gods" and "son gods" (e.g. Saturn-Jupiter) terminology (in some places) to relate the reality of the one true God becoming man to pagans who had pervasive concepts of "father gods" and "son gods". They even believed that some of their gods impregnated human women and had children of "gods". In the Roman Empire, some emperors were "gods" and had the title "son of god" (Divi Filius). In fact, given the environment that the early Church was preaching in, wouldn't one even expect to see language like this? Notice how this language is particularly in John, a later Gospel, perhaps written after some experience had been gained trying to preach to pagans. If you try to tell a pagan that God became a man, you know what he's going to say? He's going to say: "Yes, I know, many gods have become a man. which one are you referring to?" So you try to say "No, I mean the one the true God, He is a pure infinite spirit. and He is the only true God". Why do think the Gospel of John shows Jesus telling the non-Jewish woman that "God is spirit" and that the Jews know who they worship?! Jews already knew the term Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the term used in Scripture to tie the teaching back to the Jewish roots to indicate that still, we are talking about the one true Judeo-Christian God who does not have parts/persons.
Ever notice all the emphasis in the Creeds: "...believe in one God", "true God", "you alone are the Most High"? They are dealing with pagans who believed in many "gods" and "sons of gods".
What's happened is, that this language has been "handed down" such that sincere and brilliant theologians have had to explain how the Trinity does not mean that God is not _one_ and we admit it's unintelligible and so we all just say "Wow, I understand God created the universe even though it's a mystery, I understand God became man even though it's a mystery, but the Trinity, I can't understand that one."
The Pope has really been talking about a new softness and flexibility today. He has indicated that it's more than "an era of change" , it's a "change of an era". Amen, we're no longer preaching primarily to pagans.
Look at how you need to explain God as "a nature"! Look at "consubstantial". God is like a substance?! Spirit is like a substance?! It sounds like some sort of spiritual "substance" (nature) that each Person of the Trinity is made of. Look at your own statement: "...'what are you?' all three could answer God." You are saying God is a "what" and not a "who" to explain the Trinity. God says "I am". God is not a "what", He is one Personal Being, not one Being in Three Persons.
I understand where you are coming from, we have such awe for God and our Churches that we are afraid to even question. (By the way, I love and respect the Catholic Church and people). Research the Roman history, Roman pagan religion, Greek pagan religion, Greek philosophy, Judaism, and Sumerian religion for yourself. You may have no idea just how much the "Roman" in "Roman Catholicism" means and just what it means to say the true statement that the Trinity is a Roman Catholic doctrine.
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Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
I find no excuse for the Trinity, especially because Christians are using a Jew to make of him one of the three persons that constitute the Christian Trinity. I consider the attempt a double sin akin to the sin of King David when he caused the murder of Uriah in order to promote the adultery of his wife Bathsheba. If that's for lack of spiritual evidences, here are evidences from the point of view of Logic and Physics:
The Absolute Oneness of God
Isaiah says that, absolutely, God cannot be compared with anyone or anything, as we read Isaiah 46:5. "To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal to , or compare Me with, that we may be alike?"
Therefore, more than one God would have been unable to produce the world; one would have impeded the work of the other, unless this could be avoided by a suitable division of labor.
More than one Divine Being would have one element in common, and would differ in another; each would thus consist of two elements, and would not be God.
More than one God are moved to action by will; the will, without a substratum, could not act simultaneously in more than one being.
Therefore, the existence of one God is proved; the existence of more than one God cannot be proved. One could suggest that it would be possible; but since as possibility is inapplicable to God, there does not exist more than one God. So, the possibility of ascertaining the existence of God is here confounded with potentiality of existence.
Again, if one God suffices, a second or third God would be superfluous; if one God is not sufficient, he is not perfect, and cannot be a deity.
Now, besides being God absolutely One, He is incorporeal. If God were corporeal, He would consist of atoms, and would not be one; or he would be comparable to other beings; but a comparison implies the existence of similar and of dissimilar elements, and God would thus not be One. A corporeal God would be finite, and an external power would be required to define those limits.
Muffled
Jesus in me
The Athanasian creed had the "three persons" phrase in it.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe this statement is false. God doesn't need Christians to define Him. He is capable of doing it Himself.
I believe in doing so you blaspheme God.
I believe the Trinity is in agreement with that.
Coder
Active Member
Suggest: http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/the-trinity-is-wrong.6985/page-3#post-4931361
Roman emperors were called "son of god", (divi filius). The name of the pagan god Jupiter means sky "father" (pater is Latin for father). Christians refer to God as "Father in Heaven", Jupiter was "father in the sky". The Romans believed that Jupiter was the most powerful of all gods.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitoline_Triad
Do you have a personal relationship with God as one Personal Being?
When you pray to God are you praying to three divine Persons at once? Do you view your relationship with God as a relationship with three divine Persons? Sounds very much like early Greek/Roman pagan beliefs and practices. It's certainly not Jewish and the message of Christianity is that Christians are grafted onto the Jewish tree by God's grace. However, I think you can thank the militant Roman Empire for interfering (as they did in Judaism, forcing statues of their pagan gods into Jewish houses of worship). So now 2000 years later, Christians believe that it's a sin to not accept God as Trinity because Jewish people follow God's revelation that He is One and they obey His commandment not to worship strange/false gods before Him???!!!
http://www.jta.org/2013/09/12/news-...ises-jews-for-keeping-their-faith-amid-trials
https://www.ncronline.org/news/vati...cis-forcefully-tells-italian-church-gathering
Pope Francis: "We are not living an era of change but a change of era." Note that's "Change of an era"! The Roman Empire has ended centuries ago and I think Christianity is still in "recovery".
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Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
So, no problem I prefer that you consider myself a blasphemer than to agree with you that God is not of an absolute Oneness.
ukok102nak
Active Member
perhaps we should ask first who were this three that they made as their symbol to form this so called
"trinity"
b'coz
some says the father is not the son
and also the father is not the holy spirit
the same meaning that were given unto the son that he is not the holy spirit
and diffinitely the son is not the father
but according to some people
the father is god
and so his son for if the father is a god
then the son is diffinitely a god also
but
the father is not the son and
also not the holy spirit
and some people can say
the same thing to the son
therefore
who is the holy spirit
for some say it is also a god
according to some "trinity" believers
by the way
some people used the term
the holy ghost
as it is the same thing from this so called the holy spirit
thats why some people were askin somethin like this
are ghost and spirits are really the same thing . . . ...
so to make it short
where is the proof in that
. ... just askin
if we may say so ... .
:ty:
godbless
unto all always
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Nothing in the Christian Trinity could be in agreement with the absolute Oneness of God. (Isaiah 46:5)
psychoslice
Veteran Member
To me the so called trinity is nothing but a metaphor, we are all One in what we call God, and what I call the Source, its that simple, why confuse yourself over a little thing .
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe you can make false statements until you are blue in the face but you can't prove them because they are false.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
And do you believe that this proves that something in the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is in harmony with the absolute Oneness of God?
ukok102nak
Active Member
~;> true christians never
believed on such a thing that came from those trinium god leaders who invented that so called the trinity doctrine
coz
it is contradicting unto this verses
as it is written
:read:
Hebrews 1:1
God, having in the past spoken to the fathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.
3 His Son is the radiance of his glory, the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made, through himself , purification for sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
to be come one with
the almighty god the father
and
his only begotten son
our lord and saviour
along with all that is holy
doesnt mean everyone must needs to create a religion base on oneness
as they say
a religion created by men
is not inspired by god
just look unto those religions created by men
they were been manipulated by the triune god leaders who mind set those people so that they may believed on a personal relationship with
a system of biblical interpretation taught by man
:ty:
godbless
unto all always
believed on such a thing that came from those trinium god leaders who invented that so called the trinity doctrine
coz
it is contradicting unto this verses
as it is written
:read:
Hebrews 1:1
God, having in the past spoken to the fathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.
3 His Son is the radiance of his glory, the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made, through himself , purification for sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
to be come one with
the almighty god the father
and
his only begotten son
our lord and saviour
along with all that is holy
doesnt mean everyone must needs to create a religion base on oneness
as they say
a religion created by men
is not inspired by god
just look unto those religions created by men
they were been manipulated by the triune god leaders who mind set those people so that they may believed on a personal relationship with
a system of biblical interpretation taught by man
:ty:
godbless
unto all always
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Nothing Jewish about the book of Hebrews.