Oh ok Ba'al-i agree i think alot of church dogma has changed the way of the word to fit their own theologys....
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The Trinity isnt Real, nor is it logical
- Thread starter l neXus l
- Start date
Oh ok Ba'al-i agree i think alot of church dogma has changed the way of the word to fit their own theologys....
*Paul*
Jesus loves you
Oh great, another person attacking the trinity but doesn't even know what Christians believe regarding it.
I don't think any Trinitarian will disagree with this brilliant statement by Augustine:
7. All those Catholic expounders of the divine Scriptures, both Old and New, whom I have been able to read, who have written before me concerning the Trinity, Who is God, have purposed to teach, according to the Scriptures, this doctrine, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit intimate a divine unity of one and the same substance in an indivisible equality; and therefore that they are not three Gods, but one God: although the Father has begotten the Son, and so He who is the Father is not the Son; and the Son is begotten by the Father, and so He who is the Son is not the Father; and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son, but only the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, Himself also co-equal with the Father and the Son, and pertaining to the unity of the Trinity. Yet not that this Trinity was born of the Virgin Mary, and crucified under Pontius Pilate, and buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven, but only the Son. Nor, again, that this Trinity descended in the form of a dove upon Jesus when He was baptized; nor that, on the day of Pentecost, after the ascension of the Lord, when there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, the same Trinity sat upon each of them with cloven tongues like as of fire, but only the Holy Spirit. Nor yet that this Trinity said from heaven, You are my Son, whether when He was baptized by John, or when the three disciples were with Him in the mount, or when the voice sounded, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again; but that it was a word of the Father only, spoken to the Son; although the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as they are indivisible, so work indivisibly. This is also my faith, since it is the Catholic faith.
CHURCH FATHERS: On the Trinity, Book I (St. Augustine)
So if you read this you will learn that we do not think them the same person.
Possibly... Even so, would you find this compelling in any way?Ba'al said:
John D
Spiritsurfer
Man himself is a trinity.
The profile is up there,the post in here and I am sitting down there.
Enjoy
- What can be seen - In person ( nobody have any knowledge what you're about.) - Father
- What can be known - like my profile which I spinned for your guys. An Identity in this world called- Religious forums - but you don't know me when I get op from my PC - Son
- My precense - the way I write my stuff, what my writings stir up in you and the things you think about or don't think when you see my name - Spirit
The profile is up there,the post in here and I am sitting down there.
Enjoy
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I was raised in a Christian home, by parents who were involved in full time Christian ministry - in a non denominational setting. They worked for the Navigators, which is a ministry that isn't tied to one particular church. It's an outreach program designed to reach active duty military personnel.
My dad was a regional director for this organization. This meant that I was exposed to all sorts of differing Christian beliefs for the first 12 years of my life. Nearly every night, we had people over. We would sit around the dining room table and I would listen to them debate for hours - till I fell asleep with my head on my arms.
It was a great learning experience for me - a terrific childhood. Definitely not typical.
I've heard just about every doctrinal debate ten times over. Just to clarify, as an adult, I challenged nearly every doctrine of Christianity all over again - maybe it was because my brain was hardwired to be skeptical after all those years of debate.
The mistake that people make is that they are trying to apply human logic to events and concepts that are very far above our pay grade.
We look at God, and Jesus, and the Holy Spirit -- all three of which are clearly present in the Bible as facets of God - and we say, "But HOW can you be one and the same? That doesn't make sense to my human brain! Therefore I don't believe it!"
Trinitarian doctrine is that God is in Three Persons. Separate entities within the same God being. Yes - this is a mystery. I'm OK with mystery. As a human with perpetually limited understanding, I've accepted the fact that God is more complex than I can ever fully grasp. He's got me beat on intelligence, foresight, wisdom, understanding, knowledge, etc - and always will have me beat. That's because He is the Supreme Being, the Creater, the Alpha and Omega.
Christianity requires faith. Faith kicks in when we hit a brick wall from our limited human perspective. Faith requires that we accept things as true even when we don't understand. That's the very nature of faith.
We practice faith in our daily, human lives as well. For instance, when our boss tells us to do something and we do it even when we don't fully understand why we have to do it. It's not some novel, stupid concept that's only required in religion.
You speak of reading the bible "for the first time." The early church did just that - with no preconceived notions. The concept of the Trinity is IN THERE. Yes, it's strange - yes, it's in ways unbelievable. It would have been easier to try to circumvent such a complex topic - but the unavoidable fact is that the Trinity is strongly alluded to (at the very least - some would say it's clearly in there).
Therefore, a church or people who believe it's our responsibility to gain as much understanding as possible concerning scriptures and the nature of God MUST explore this concept.
Now, as a Christian, I am not going to go so far as to say that our salvation depends on whether or not we fully understand, or even accept, the doctrine of the Trinity. In fact, I don't believe salvation hinges on that at all.
But I'm not going to disgard the doctrine simply because I don't understand it.
For now, we see through a glass darkly.
My dad was a regional director for this organization. This meant that I was exposed to all sorts of differing Christian beliefs for the first 12 years of my life. Nearly every night, we had people over. We would sit around the dining room table and I would listen to them debate for hours - till I fell asleep with my head on my arms.
It was a great learning experience for me - a terrific childhood. Definitely not typical.
I've heard just about every doctrinal debate ten times over. Just to clarify, as an adult, I challenged nearly every doctrine of Christianity all over again - maybe it was because my brain was hardwired to be skeptical after all those years of debate.
The mistake that people make is that they are trying to apply human logic to events and concepts that are very far above our pay grade.
We look at God, and Jesus, and the Holy Spirit -- all three of which are clearly present in the Bible as facets of God - and we say, "But HOW can you be one and the same? That doesn't make sense to my human brain! Therefore I don't believe it!"
Trinitarian doctrine is that God is in Three Persons. Separate entities within the same God being. Yes - this is a mystery. I'm OK with mystery. As a human with perpetually limited understanding, I've accepted the fact that God is more complex than I can ever fully grasp. He's got me beat on intelligence, foresight, wisdom, understanding, knowledge, etc - and always will have me beat. That's because He is the Supreme Being, the Creater, the Alpha and Omega.
Christianity requires faith. Faith kicks in when we hit a brick wall from our limited human perspective. Faith requires that we accept things as true even when we don't understand. That's the very nature of faith.
We practice faith in our daily, human lives as well. For instance, when our boss tells us to do something and we do it even when we don't fully understand why we have to do it. It's not some novel, stupid concept that's only required in religion.
You speak of reading the bible "for the first time." The early church did just that - with no preconceived notions. The concept of the Trinity is IN THERE. Yes, it's strange - yes, it's in ways unbelievable. It would have been easier to try to circumvent such a complex topic - but the unavoidable fact is that the Trinity is strongly alluded to (at the very least - some would say it's clearly in there).
Therefore, a church or people who believe it's our responsibility to gain as much understanding as possible concerning scriptures and the nature of God MUST explore this concept.
Now, as a Christian, I am not going to go so far as to say that our salvation depends on whether or not we fully understand, or even accept, the doctrine of the Trinity. In fact, I don't believe salvation hinges on that at all.
But I'm not going to disgard the doctrine simply because I don't understand it.
For now, we see through a glass darkly.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
I think what appeals to me about the Trinity is that the concept adds a distinct richness to God that is not present without. The concept serves to express a multi-faceted reality in a way that is difficult for people with a limited sense of being to understand. For those of us who subscribe to the concept that even the "lowly" personality of the human animal is multidimensional, the Trinity makes perfect sense and was perhaps one of the first attempts to describe a multidimensional reality. Piece of cake, really.
My overall perception of those that trash the notion of the Trinity is that of exceptionally superficial thinkers who wouldn't recognize a deep thought if they found themselves drowning in it.
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Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
True dat, YmirGF (by the way, what does your name mean?).
We all operate on faith without a full understanding of many, many facets of the human experience - not simply religious ideas. Scientific facts that we know now to be true would have seemed unbelievable to humans, even the most intelligent humans, just decades ago. And new scientific relevations are presented to us daily.
Trinitarian doctrine, as you pointed out so succinctly (as well as others on this thread) is not limited to Christianity in it's scope or manifestation.
We all operate on faith without a full understanding of many, many facets of the human experience - not simply religious ideas. Scientific facts that we know now to be true would have seemed unbelievable to humans, even the most intelligent humans, just decades ago. And new scientific relevations are presented to us daily.
Trinitarian doctrine, as you pointed out so succinctly (as well as others on this thread) is not limited to Christianity in it's scope or manifestation.
Bravo,Bravo....how true....I myself have tried to make that point.It seems as if in todays society we are all ready to dismiss something we do not understand or can explain fully.The unfortunate part comes that as for example if someone in the scientific community comes up with something we are all ready to accept it readily in hand.I have seen various passages in the Bible alluding to "something"more than one.Some passages are in the plurality...as someone who is just now trying to follow the faith and learn new things,it sometimes isnt easy to understand or explain-but it seems to be more of a "feeling from within" as odd as it may sound....Happy New Year
imaginaryme
Active Member
...says the guy from Earth. :biglaugh:For a very long time, actually. Just not in this part of the world.
Metempsychosis
Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
Muffled
Jesus in me
Augustus cagily never mentioned the word "person."
This passage has to do with the phrase "and not confusing" that Trinitarians use. It treats of the fact that the members of the Trinity act individually even though they are one. Obviously this could lead to the naive construing such individuality as different persons. However what shall we personalize then? - the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who spoke to them and visited Abraham in a body; The God who spoke to Moses out of a burning bush ( it's too bad the burning bush doesn't have a name it would be so much easier to personalize it) etc.
I suppose one could argue that the Father and Son have personal titles. However this breaks down because those titles are based on human forms and the Father does not have a human form. Then there is the Paraclete who doesn't have a personal title or His own human form either.
Is this tongue-in-cheek or chutzpah on Augustines part? Is he saying that his teaching becomes catholic theology? Or is he saying that he can incorporate his own thinking into catholic theology without sacrificing his beliefs?
What shall I say then? If I believe in the Nicene creed but not the Athanasian creed and that I believe what Augustine taught, does that constitute a belief in catholic theology. And when you come right down to it, does it not appear that Christian teaching has been rent with schisms so that it could not even be considered catholic?
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Not logical? Logic isn't a particularly relevant factor to those who believe such things.