The trinity of three scriptures destroys the myth of the Trinity:

[Mujahid Mohammed]

So out of curiousity what are your beliefs? do you believe in the scriptures of the bible to be the absolute word of god? Does God make mistakes or does man and should we follow the mistakes made by men if any

Salam

Mujahid

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Salam, another question if one verse says God is one and then another verse says the Godheads of the trinity are equal and independent and then one figure of the godhead says one is greater than he. Logically explain how all these verses which clearly are in contradiction of each other can make sense considering they are all in the same book. If the book was given to me in a whole am I not to accept it as a whole and if there are contradictions in statements concerning the trinity and doctrines contained within. How can a person know who is telling the truth and who is lying because both statements can not be true. Either one is lying or they are both lying. If someone can clarify for me I would really appreciate it

 

[iris89]

Hi reyjamiei vbmenu_register("postmenu_173084", true);

Sorry to have mistaken you for a believer in that God (YHWH) dishonoring false myth or creedal doctrine.

I could have misquoted in my first post as I make no claim to infallability especiall with typing, I make many typo errors and could have copied the wrong thing in the wrong place. Now, however, you know how the NEB really reads. I would recommend you get yourself a copy it is a really good translation. I picked mine up at a thrift shop for a $1.50 and you probably could do likewise.

It was nice to hear from you.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[greatcalgarian]

Salam, another question if one verse says God is one and then another verse says the Godheads of the trinity are equal and independent and then one figure of the godhead says one is greater than he. Logically explain how all these verses which clearly are in contradiction of each other can make sense considering they are all in the same book. If the book was given to me in a whole am I not to accept it as a whole and if there are contradictions in statements concerning the trinity and doctrines contained within. How can a person know who is telling the truth and who is lying because both statements can not be true. Either one is lying or they are both lying. If someone can clarify for me I would really appreciate it

Only fundamental Christians believe every word in the holy bible is true:162: , and they have a way of forgetting the contradictory passages, and just take one part of the bible at a time to interprete it to the way they liked it to mean.
On the other hand, more liberal Christians take the view that the bible was written by men under the inspiration of God:jiggy: . So although God is perfect, but men are not, and this partial combination of God and men's work will result in certain part of the bible to be not exactly in line with another part. http://ca.geocities.com/greatcalgarian/Christianity.htm
Hence since the bible came into existence, we have the Pope being the final authority on how to interprete every word and every sentence in the bible, which made the life of Christians rather uneventful and simple, other than to get involved with the Crusade or other unimaginable undertaking. Unfortunately about 6 or 7 hundreds year ago, this Martin Luther started the Christian world revolution, and resulted in the current thousands of sect of Christianity. Hence you can see Iris89 arguing with EnhancedSpirit and with NetDoc etc, while Michel and gang just stood by and laughing their heads off :biglaugh:

 

[iris89]

Hi greatcalgarian

The Bible is very important, it is the Word of God (YHWH), and should be respected as same. As I told another poster with respect the Bible, the Bible is NOT the product of one committee or strongman. It has over 40 individual writers who wrote under divine inspiration/guidance much as transcribing secretaries today taking transcription and then later typing it out. In other words one real author, God (YHWH), and many scribes each of whom wrote in his own style over a period of approximately 1,600 years. All of what people call or consider inconsistencies are really not such, but most often just a problem of translation and/or understanding, i.e., lack of understanding of what the original writer writing in his own language and culture meant/said in his original writing. What is remarkable, is the writers over such a period of time all wrote in harmony when even most posters on threads on this forum can not even stay on track or subject over a period of a few days and/or weeks at most with the original subject of the thread. This fact of harmony over a period so great as to almost stagger the imagination shows that it had one guiding force or author who divinely inspired its writers as humans of their own volition can not keep on track over short periods of time

One should NOT however try an interpret it to their liking but take it as it is as 2 Peter 1:20-21 says, " First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." (Revised Standard Version; RSV).

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[greatcalgarian]

Hi greatcalgarian

The Bible is very important, it is the Word of God (YHWH), and should be respected as same. As I told another poster with respect the Bible, the Bible is NOT the product of one committee or strongman. It has over 40 individual writers who wrote under divine inspiration/guidance much as transcribing secretaries today taking transcription and then later typing it out. In other words one real author, God (YHWH), and many scribes each of whom wrote in his own style over a period of approximately 1,600 years. All of what people call or consider inconsistencies are really not such, but most often just a problem of translation and/or understanding, i.e., lack of understanding of what the original writer writing in his own language and culture meant/said in his original writing. What is remarkable, is the writers over such a period of time all wrote in harmony when even most posters on threads on this forum can not even stay on track or subject over a period of a few days and/or weeks at most with the original subject of the thread. This fact of harmony over a period so great as to almost stagger the imagination shows that it had one guiding force or author who divinely inspired its writers as humans of their own volition can not keep on track over short periods of time

One should NOT however try an interpret it to their liking but take it as it is as 2 Peter 1:20-21 says, " First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." (Revised Standard Version; RSV).

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

First off, it is a matter of opinion that the bible is written in harmony, when in the first place you admit that translation may randor the bible to become inconsistent. The inconsistency and errancy http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ in the bible is far more greater than what can be swept over by a statement that "look, it is so harmonious that it must be written under the inspiration of God". I would not like to go into discussion of inerrancy of bible, but if God inspired the original author, why did he choose not to inspire the translator? Is He now still inspiring you to write on this forum in every word you put here, or is He inspiring me? For almost every quote of bible you gave, I can find somewhere that may be interpreted exactly opposite to what you have quoted. But then we will end up in interpretation of a could be wrongly translated version, and you would claim that your PhD Theology spouse will be more knowledgeable than me, and you know more Greek or Latin than me, and there will be no end to the debate. We will end up, which passage of the bible is what God has intended for us to believe, and which is not. This will then bring us to each individual background, upbringing, how much pro-Christian or anti-Christian material he or she has read, whether he or she has an open mind, the background education in scientific, philosophical learning etc. I strongly advise you to be more open minded and visit the following web, and read everything in there without resorting to trying to find a passage to quote to rebute those opinion in this web. Good luck in your search for eternal peace and may God bless you.:162:
http://www.infidels.org/library/index.html

 

[iris89]

Hi greatcalgarian

The subject you are bringing up can NOT be covered on a BB forum as at the minimum an entire book would be required. In fact, the best book on the subject is one by Dr. Jason Beduhn one of the greatest living experts on ancient middle eastern languages. It is called,"Truth in Translation: Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament" and was published in 2004. You should read it as it will answer the very items you are bringing up.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[greatcalgarian]

Hi greatcalgarian

The subject you are bringing up can NOT be covered on a BB forum as at the minimum an entire book would be required. In fact, the best book on the subject is one by Dr. Jason Beduhn one of the greatest living experts on ancient middle eastern languages. It is called,"Truth in Translation: Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament" and was published in 2004. You should read it as it will answer the very items you are bringing up.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

This one is good also?
http://home.europa.com/%7Elynnlund/yourwordistruth.htm
http://home.europa.com/%7Elynnlund/truthintrans.htm
I do not think I have the time to go into details of translation. In the first place, all current English translation of the bible is not based on the original Hebrew for the OT, and Greek(?) for the NT. If someone can produce the original hand written copy of whether it is as early as Genesis, or as late as the Revelation, then we can scientifically go through which translation is exact. On the other hand, current culture background of 20th century human may not comprehend those living in the 1st century or 1000 yr bc.

 

[iris89]

Hi greatcalgarianThe original manuscripts of no important ancient book still exist including the works of Plato, but no one questions the accuracy of those. Strange.

But with regard the Bible, more ancient manuscripts, scrools, fragments of both exist than any other ancient book.

Your friend in Christ Iris89

 

[greatcalgarian]

Hi greatcalgarianThe original manuscripts of no important ancient book still exist including the works of Plato, but no one questions the accuracy of those. Strange.

But with regard the Bible, more ancient manuscripts, scrools, fragments of both exist than any other ancient book.

Your friend in Christ Iris89

Nothing strange about that, because bible is the only one that is claimed by Christians to be inspired by God, and hence the inerrancy will always be called into question.

2nd, there are hundreds of co-existing gospels http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
during the first century,

Sometimes it really surprised and amazed me that my creation could be so imaginative and productive. Look at what Gnostic Basilides wrote (Nag Hammadi) in Exigetica around AD135, and AD144 Marcion's faith and Gospel, Montanism in AD156, Talmud in AD200, Justin, Tatian, Terullian, Theophilus, Serapion, Essenes, Dionysius, Athenagoras, Irenaeus, all telling different stories.

and Evangelical Christians have never been honest as to explain to non-Christian [ http://ca.geocities.com/greatcalgarian/IngersollBible.htm http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/NTcanon.html]how the early fathers distilled those into the current version of copy of the bible.
Anyway, I do not think the existing original fragment of copies related to the current bible are more than any other ancient book.

 

[iris89]

Hi greatcalgarianWrong, of the manuscripts, scrools, and fragments of same, over 20,000 are in existance that we know of with regard the Bible.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[Pah]

Hi greatcalgarianWrong, of the manuscripts, scrools, and fragments of same, over 20,000 are in existance that we know of with regard the Bible.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

I would dispute that number - have you got a reference?

 

[Hope]

Here's an interesting verse, iris....

And Jesus answered and said to him, "It is said, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.' " ~Luke 4:12

This was Jesus' response to Satan, when Satan tried to get Him to jump off the temple. Is it just me, or is He calling Himself God??

 

[Scuba Pete]

Great passage Hope!

Jesus always claimed to be God.

It was such an outrageous claim that the religious right of the day crucified him for it.

Jesus put it best: "I am!"

That's enough for me!

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

3The devil said to him, "If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread."
4Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone.'[a]"


5The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7So if you worship me, it will all be yours."

8Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'[b]" 9The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down from here. 10For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you
to guard you carefully;
11they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'[c]"


12Jesus answered, "It says: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'[d]" 13When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time.

No, he is not calling himself God. When the devil told Jesus to turn the rock into bread, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone.'

When the devil said, I will give you everything if you worship me, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'(Father not Son)

When he said throw yourself off the cliff and see if you live, "It says: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' (Father not Son) Jesus is saying that he cannot put his father to the test.

 

[Hope]

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God...~I John 4:1-2

Why bother specifying Jesus 'coming in the flesh', if He isn't God? It's never said about any other man of God in the Bible, that I know of anyway----'he came in the flesh.' For every man of God, whether a prophet or no, is just that---a man!!

It's pretty much taken for granted that when one is just a man, he is in the flesh. :sarcastic That's why John places so much importance upon this issue of believing Jesus came in the flesh. If Jesus wasn't God it would be a non-issue.

One can stress false doctrines all day long, but there's something that goes much deeper than the doctrine...it's the spirit behind the doctrine. As John said, we must test the spirits. And testing this spirit of the denial of the Trinity, in the light of Scripture ( the version not twisted to suit one's narrow view ), I have found it lacking.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God...~I John 4:1-2

Why bother specifying Jesus 'coming in the flesh', if He isn't God? It's never said about any other man of God in the Bible, that I know of anyway----'he came in the flesh.' For every man of God, whether a prophet or no, is just that---a man!!

It's pretty much taken for granted that when one is just a man, he is in the flesh. :sarcastic That's why John places so much importance upon this issue of believing Jesus came in the flesh.

Jesus came in the flesh from God. How can he be from himself? We are all of God and came in the flesh. Only we are seperate from God by our sins. Jesus never seperated from God. He showed us how to deny our sinful nature and trust in the Father.

 

[Hope]

Jesus never seperated from God.

At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eloi, ELoi, Lama Sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eloi, ELoi, Lama Sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

Yes, this is evidence that he was a man, with doubts. And if he is God, is he asking himself why he forsake himself? He did not turn away from God. He did not denounce God. He merely prayed for understanding, like a lot of us do.

 

[Hope]

The very essence of the Trinity is that God is Three Persons in One. Every argument I have come across against this is based on thinking 'in the box' as opposed to thinking 'outside the box.' Of course saying Jesus was separated from Himself sounds strange, every reference to the Three Persons sounds strange to the limited understanding of our finite human minds. But that is the beauty of it! If it didn't invoke a sense of Huh? and wonder, God would just be a boring divine being, probably the invention of a bored human.

God is too vast and complex and amazing to be put in the 'boxes' we think He should go in. It only makes sense that the Creator is more complex than the created. We are the ones in a box, so to speak. Not Him. We have a limited viewpoint. His is limitless. If we are to accept the Trinity, we have to accept our own limited understanding. And just look at Him in wonder!