The trinity of three scriptures destroys the myth of the Trinity:

[iris89]

Hi NetDoc

FIRST, Whether one believes in God (YHWH) dishonoring doctrine or not DOES MATTER. The scriptures clearly show that having sound doctrine is important at Titus 2:1, “But speak thou the things that become sound doctrine:” (Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible). ? And are you being so presumptuous as to pretend to know more than the scribe God (YHWH) used to write Proverbs who said at Proverbs 4:1-2, " Hear, [my] sons, the instruction of a father, And attend to know understanding: 2 For I give you good doctrine; Forsake ye not my law.' (ASV)? And you are so presumptuous as to infer you know more than the Apostle Paul when he wrote Ephesians 4:14, "that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;" (ASV)? And do you claim to once more know more than the Apostle Paul when he wrote 1 Timothy 6:3, "If any man teacheth a different doctrine, and consenteth not to sound words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;" (ASV)? Or when he wrote 2 Timothy 4:3, "For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts;" (ASV)?


SECOND, You never even really answered my question as I clearly pointed out in my last post to you.



THIRD, You say you disagree with my logic, but you have shown NO error in it. As I said previously:

The two scriptures were only part of the question. The real question is the fact that these two scriptures clearly show the Trinity is impossible, but I believe you may not fully understand what the Trinity doctrine actually is so let me state it from an authoritive source:

Quote:

The Cyclopoedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, New York 1871, by John M'Clintock and James Strong, Vol. II, page 560-561, states, "We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the

persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.....The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal...So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty...So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet there are not three Gods, but one God...The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding...And in this Trinity none is afore or after other; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal together, and coequal. So that in all things, as is afore said, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity." [this is the Athanasian Creed quoted in the above mentioned Cyclopoedia].







This doctrine clearly states that the three persons are coeternal together, and coequal, but the scriptures in question,



John 5:26, “For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:” (American Standard Version; ASV)

John 6:57, “As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father; so he that eateth me, he also shall live because of me.



Clearly show this as impossible as Jesus (Yeshua) himself testified that the “Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son” which would be of course impossible if they were as this false doctrine falsely claims that they are coeternal and coequal. Likewise, Jesus (Yeshua) clearly states, “I live because of the Father” which would of course not be the case if they were as this false doctrine falsely claims that they are coeternal and coequal.

FOURTH, What I said has nothing to do with etymology, but everything to do with Bible truths and facts. I have clearly pointed out the facts, to which you have no real answer and you well know that. I am in no way forcing interpretations, that is what Trinitarians attempt to do, not independent honest Bible researchers.



FIFTH, Your comment,

Etymology was not created so that you could spend hours trying to determine how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Refers to a Catholic project or debate of the middle ages and not to sincere Bible researchers as the Catholics are the ones that argued this.



Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[iris89]

Hi NetDoc

I forgot to mention, I am NOT drawing lines in the sand, but simply exposing false doctrine in keeping with the Bible principle of not having anything to do with paganism. Clearly you are overlooking Exodus 20:1-6, "And the Lord spoke all these words: 2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me: 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments." (Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible; DRCB).

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[Scuba Pete]

And are you being so presumptuous

No, you are doing enough presuming for the both us and half of those here on RF.

but simply exposing false doctrine in keeping with the Bible principle of not having anything to do with paganism.

Well you do a fine job of drawing lines in the sand without even trying then!

I had never met a Christain Pharisee before, so this has been quite enlightening. I have never seen the Gospel reduced to such pedantic ramblings, and it is my sincere hope that I won't be exposed to such again. Where Paul tried to become all things to all men, I see you are going an entirely different route and trying to bludgeon people into submission using a corrupt etymology to try and support a few pet theories which have no bearing on salvation.

Wake up and smell the grace. God word is not about hard to define mental twists on a few words. He came here to show us his love and perchance to love us into his Kingdom. Instead of drawing lines in the sand about this and that, he ERASED them all when he died on the cross. That's right Jesus FREED us from having to live in a Pharisee's mind set. Paul warned us about this in Galations 5. You have simply substituted "Trinitarian Doctrine" for circumcision here:

Galations 6:1. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. 7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough."

I refuse to let you, or any other Christian Pharisee tell me WHAT I have to believe. If it's not CLEARLY in the scriptures, then it's CLEARLY a matter of opinion. You can have your yoke of slavery to the law, I prefer the yoke of Jesus. He gives me rest, not by observing the law, but by being free to LOVE. Here is my prayer for you:

Ephesians 1:18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

 

[iris89]

Hi NetDoc



FIRST, You should stop the name calling and false accusations. You call yourself a Christian, yet see No need for sound doctrine in line with Titus 2:1, "But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine:" (New King James bible; NKJBk); and make false accusations such as insinuating that I am;

a Christain Pharisee

Which is of course an outright untruth, and violates Bible principles and is of the Devil as shown by John 8:44, "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it." (NJKB).



SECOND, It is obvious you care not for sound doctrine as shown by your statement;

. I have never seen the Gospel reduced to such pedantic

ramblings, and it is my sincere hope that I won't be exposed to such

again. Where Paul tried to become all things to all men, I see you

are going an entirely different route and trying to bludgeon people

into submission using a corrupt etymology to try and support a few

pet theories which have no bearing on salvation

The Bible clearly shows the need for sound doctrine at many places. In fact, true faith demands one believe only in sound doctrine as shown by Hebrews 11:1-11, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. 3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. 4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. 8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised." (NKJB). And it is impossible to have true faith without accurate and true doctrine as shown by Romans 6:17, "But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (NKJB); and Romans 16:17, "Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them." (NKJB); and all should pay attention to the warning given at 1 Timothy 1:10, "for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine," (NKJB).

.

THIRD, You should apply what you wrote and wrongly directed at me to yourself as you, not I, need to wake up to sound doctrine.

Wake up and smell the grace. God word is not about hard to define

mental twists on a few words. He came here to show us his love and

perchance to love us into his Kingdom. Instead of drawing lines in

the sand about this and that, he ERASED them all when he died on the

cross. That's right Jesus FREED us from having to live in a

Pharisee's mind set. Paul warned us about this in Galations 5. You

have simply substituted "Trinitarian Doctrine" for circumcision here:

The God (YHWH) dishonoring false doctrine is nothing but trickery of men which is to be guarded against as testified to at Ephesians 4:14, "that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting," (NKJB). As Jesus (Yeshua) clearly testified to at John 7:16, "Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me." (NKJB) clearly showing that the doctrines he was teaching were NOT his, but those of his Father, Almighty God (YHWH) who sent hem; thereby showing they are distinct and not co-equal individuals. And Jesus (Yeshua) went on to clearly warn his followers with respect un-sound doctrine at Matthew 16:12, "Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees." (NKJB). In fact, Jesus (Yeshua) testified to the fact that his Father (YHWH) was greater than himself at John 14:28, "You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, y 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I." (NKJB); and then Jesus (Yeshua) clearly warned all at 1 Timothy 3:6, "If any man teacheth a different doctrine, and consenteth not to sound words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; " (American Standard Version; ASV). Thus clearly showing any doctrine that would make him co-equal with his Father (YHWH) as God (YHWH) dishonoring un-sound doctrine.



FOURTH, You clearly do not understand Galatians 6:1-9, which deals with NOT being yoked down by un-sound doctrine such as circumcision which was of the old law covenant and not the new covenant, the key to understanding is, "For in Christ Jesus neither ircumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. 7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you." Which is actually a plea for sound doctrine on the part of the apostle which you choose to avoid hearing.



FIFTH, Actually Ephesians 1:18-23 clearly shows the Trinity as impossible so I find it strange that you would quote it; clearly you are failing to comprehend the sound doctrine it is teaching all obedient Christians, so let's look at it, " having the eyes of your heart enlightened, that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 and what the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to that working of the strength of his might 20 which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and made him to sit at his right hand in the heavenly [places], 21 far above all rule, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 and he put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all." (ASV). Here it clearly shows that Jesus (Yeshua) Christ was raised by his Father (YHWH) from the dead; therefore, they can NOT be co-equal and co-eternal. No one can be co-eternal to another if he has died and then was resurrected by the other.



Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[Scuba Pete]

Sixth,

since I am not interested in a one way street dialogue I will leave you to your practice of being a Christian Pharisee. Good day.

 

[Christopher Krajewski]

Is the blessed trinity impractical to you, or is it not explaining well enough how impractical MAN is? Another way of phrasing this question about how the Word is approached in common Faith is to wonder of the commiting of common practice, praxis for new invention, professions dominated by women as much as men.
Impractically, I see that laying judgment on how men and women share in the Holy Spirit perhaps at love could only be done by God:sarcastic ; nevertheless that would be the impractical essence of sociological thinking in America in this day and age:bonk: .

 

[iris89]

Hi Christopher Krajewski and NetDoc



FIRST, I shall deal with what NetDoc said,

since I am not interested in a one way street dialogue I will leave you to your practice of being a Christian Pharisee. Good day.

Still calling names and making untrue accusations I see, you should pay attention to what John 8:44 says about lying and telling untruths about others, “You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. “ (New King James Bible; NKJB).



SECOND, This is for Christopher Krajewski. You said,

Is the blessed trinity impractical to you, or is it not explaining well enough how impractical MAN is? Another way of phrasing this question about how the Word is approached in common Faith is to wonder of the commiting of common practice, praxis for new invention, professions dominated by women as much as men.

Now where do you come up with this nonsense name for a false God (YHWH) dishonoring false doctrine that is clearly against what the Bible teaches? Definitely you find no such thing as ‘blessed trinity’ anywhere in the Bible. The Bible teaches that we should only adhere to sound doctrine and NOT as stated at Ephesians 4:14, “that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,” (NKJB); but should seek sound doctrine per Titus 2:1, “But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine: “ (NKJB).



You need to learn the facts, please go to my articles at the following links and do in accordance with Acts 17:10-11, Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.” (NKJB).



Documentary on the Book of John Being Anti-Trinitarian-In Multiple Parts:

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=97



and;



Mainstream Religion Sold Out To Paganism, Details Sellout to Pagan Politicians

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=209



and;



Trinity = Absurd to the Extreme:

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=61



and;



Colossians 2:8-12 & John 1:1 - Learn The Facts

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=93



and;



Scourge of Christendom, The Pagan Trinity:

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=58



and;



Trinity = Absurd God (YHWH) Dishonoring Doctrine:

http://p078.ezboard.com/fyahwehstruthinchristfrm2.showMessage?topicID=58.topic



and;



Discourse on John 8:58:

http://p078.ezboard.com/fyahwehstruthinchristfrm2.showMessage?topicID=83.topic



and;



Learn - Documentary on Our Savior Jesus (Yeshua):

http://p078.ezboard.com/fyahwehstruthinchristfrm2.showMessage?topicID=74.topic



and;



When God's (YHWH's) Kingdom Starts Rulling:

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=204



and,



Discourse on the Bible:

http://forum.bismikaallahuma.org:/viewtopic.php?p=46520#46520



and,



Muslims Do Not Comprehend The Bible:

http://forum.bismikaallahuma.org:/viewtopic.php?t=5096



and,



Let's Have Reality in Translation:

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=207



and,



Discourse on the Whether Christ is Divine:

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=190



and,



DISCOURSE ON THE MISCONCEPTION WITH RESPECT 'I AM'
http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=185



And,



Discourse On The Holy Spirit:

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=184



and,



Discourse On The Trinity of Reasons That Prove The Trinity a Myth:

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=148



and,



Does the Apostle Thomas' exclamation at John 20:28 prove that Jesus is truly God (YHWH)?
http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=145



And,



Discourse on Jeremiah 23:5-6 and the Confusion on YHWH Tsidqenu and Its Equivalents:
http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=127







Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[jade0887]

All concerned,
The Jews are absolutely monotheistic and Jesus commended them for that (see Mark 12:28-34). The early Christians were Jews that wouldn't forsake absolute monotheism for nothing. Most Jews today reject the tritheistic overtones of the Trinity though there are a few that view it as being consistent with monotheism. In any event, monotheism is historical and a pluralistic approach to deity among the Jews was viewed by most Jews as an abberation and rejected.
Jamie

 

[iris89]

Hi jade0887

You are correct when you state,

The Jews are absolutely monotheistic and Jesus commended them for
that (see Mark 13:8). The early Christians were Jews that wouldn't
forsake absolute monotheism for nothing. Most Jews today reject the
tritheistic overtones of the Trinity though there are a few that view
it as being consistent with monotheism.

In fact, the Jewish Encyclopedia states,

True Monotheism.


The modern view of the development of religious thought in Israel is that the conception of pure monotheism was reached through three channels—through the recognition of God in nature and in history, and through the belief in the ethical character or holiness of God. When Yhwh was recognized as the Creator of heaven and earth and all that in them is (comp. Amos v. 8, ix. 6), when the appellation "the Lord of the heavenly hosts" was given Him (Amos iv. 13, v. 27, Hebr.), when the whole earth was spoken of as being full of His glory (Isa. vi. 3), then there was room for no other god; for the conception of God as the Lord and Creator of nature carried with it, as a necessary corollary, the belief that there was no god beside Him (Jer. x. 11). The great conceptions of the Prophets that Yhwh punishes wrong-doing not only in Israel but in other nations (Amos i.-ii.), that He is the arbiter of the destinies of such other nations (ib. ix. 7), that He uses heathen kings as instruments of punishment or salvation, as when Isaiah speaks of the Assyrian monarch as "the rod of God's anger," when Jeremiah points to the Babylonian king as the instrument whereby God will punish Jerusalem, and when deutero-Isaiah refers to Cyrus as God's anointed—all this involves the conclusion that there was no god but Yhwh, for His dominion extended not only over Israel, but over the nations of the earth also, and His guiding hand directed the course of kings and peoples in the working out of their history.

But the conception of the holiness of Yhwh (Isa. v. 16, vi. 3; Hab. ii. 3), the recognition of His ethical character, led more than anything else to monotheism, as Kuenen has pointed out ("Hibbert Lectures,"1882, p. 127). As long as Yhwh was looked upon as only the national God, it was a question of the supremacy of the strongest as between Him and the national gods of other peoples. But when God was presented primarily in His ethical character and worshiped as the God of holiness, there was no longer any measure of comparison. If Yhwh was the holy God, then the other gods were not. Here was an entirely new element; Yhwh as the moral governor of men and nations was absolutely unique; the gods of the nations were "elilim" (= "nothings"; Isa. ii. 8, 18, 20; x. 10-11; xix. 1, 3; xxxi. 7; Hab. ii. 18; Ezek. xxx. 13), "vanity" (Jer. ii. 5, viii. 19, x. 15, xvi. 19, xviii. 15; Isa. xliv. 9, lix. 4), "lies" (Amos ii. 4; Hab. ii. 18; Jer. xxix. 31), "abomination" (Hos. ix. 10; Jer. iv. 1, vii. 30, xiii. 27, xxxii. 34; Ezek. v. 11; vii. 20; xx. 7-8, 30; Isa. xliv. 19).

Culmination in Isaiah. The doctrine of absolute monotheism is preached in the most emphatic manner by Jeremiah (x. 10; xiv. 22; xxiii. 36; xxxii. 18, 27) and the Deuteronomist(iv. 35, 39), but the Biblical teaching on the subject may be said to have culminated in Isaiah of Babylon. Yhwh, though in a peculiar sense the God of Israel, is still the God of all the world. This prophet's standpoint is uncompromising: "I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no savior" (xliii. 11); "I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God" (xliv. 6, xlviii. 12); "that they may know from the rising of the sun to the setting thereof that there is none besides me; I am God and there is none else" (xlv. 6, Hebr.). In the post-exilic psalms and such other portions of the Bible as were produced during the second commonwealth—Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Daniel—the belief in the one God and in Him alone is positively assured. Not only in Palestine was monotheism now the sure possession of the Jewish people, but it may be said that the Judaism of the Diaspora is conscious of itself as the bearer of the monotheistic doctrine and as being therein distinguished from all its surroundings (comp. Friedländer, "Gesch. der Jüdischen Apologetik," p. 217). In proof of this latter statement many passages can be cited from the apocryphal and the pseudepigraphical writings. "Let them [the nations] know thee, as we also have known thee, that there is no God but only thou, O God" (Ecclus. xxxvi. 5; comp. also xliii. 28); "neither is there any God besides thee, that careth for all" (Wisdom of Solomon xii. 13); "O Lord, Lord God, the Creator of all things, . . . who alone art King and gracious, who alone suppliest every need, who alone art righteous and almighty and eternal" (II Macc. i. 24-25; comp. Ep. Jer. 5, in Kautzsch, "Apokryphen," i. 226; Aristeas Letter, 134: ib. ii. 16; Sibyllines, Proem, 7, 15, 54; iii. 584 et seq., v. 76 et seq.: ib. i. 184, 196, 207; comp. also Josephus, "Ant." iv. 8, § 5).[source - The Jewish Encyclopedia]

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[Christopher Krajewski]

Theism is for the ultimate love of socialism, and the blessed trinity will be set into the ambitious conscience of the BRIGHT. Just because the local radio station tells us to lie for the good of some affaire I miss.

 

[jade0887]

Hi jade0887...in Christ Iris89

Iris89,
I don't accept Jesus. I only cited Jesus to show that the Christians, being mostly Jews originally, were absolute monotheists like their Jewish counterparts.
A Friend,
Jamie

 

[kassi]

People may debate on the trinity as much as they want, but what It comes down to is that
there is no salvation apart from the son, there is no salvation apart from the Holy spirit, and there is no salvation apart from the father. Our life is dependant on all three, and if our life is dependant on all three, then these three Have to have the same amount of perfection, making them equal.

Christ alone has immortality dwelling in unapproachable light. This Light is God.
How would it be possible to dwell in this light except you yourself be as pure as that light.

First of all Iris your perception of who God is is wrong. Your perception of the Holy spirit is wrong.
And your perception of who Christ is is wrong. You are Decieved and your heart is not right.

Christ came from that light, in the form of a man, for our salvation. And when that work was finished he returned to his father.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh that which is born of the spirit is spirit.

He who comes from above, is above all.

Iris I dont want you to think Im against you, I do believe the truth is absolutly needed for salvation and that Gods word leads us to that salvation, we all should strive for that truth. And I want lie and say that my heart is all that it should be. Im not against you.
But there is a Darkness in the world that can very easily decieve us.
We must be born of Gods Spirit to know God. We must die first to be reborn and this is through Christ who died for us. When in our heart we trust in him completely that is when the truth comes.

 

[kassi]

"

Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, Before the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills was I brought forth; 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, Nor the beginning of the dust of the world. 27 When he established the heavens, I was there: When he set a circle upon the face of the deep, 28 When he made firm the skies above, When the fountains of the deep became strong, 29 When he gave to the sea its bounds, That the waters should not transgress his commandments, When he marked out the foundations of the earth; 30 Then I was by him, as a master workman; And I was daily his delight, Rejoicing always before him." (ASV); And Jesus' (Yeshua's)existence before the earth was is affirmed at John 8:58, "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am." (ASV); Thus as Colossians 1:17 says, ""and he is before all things, and in him all things consist." (ASV); And at Revelation 3:14, "And to the angel of the church is Laodicea write: 'These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:" (ASV), Jesus (Yeshua) is once more shown as the first of creation. Clearly, then, he, Jesus (Yeshua) is neither the same individual and/or manifestation of the same individual; Nor co-eternal, nor co-equal with his Father (YHWH).

God possesed me in the beginning of his way? posseded what? He possesed another creature? No.
Maybe he possesed wisdom? yes. Maybe he possesed truth? Maybe he possesed knowledge? Maybe he possesed love? Maybe he possesed life?Yes
But not another creature or created being.
Try reading this verse like this:
In the beginning was the Truth and the Truth was with God and the Truth was God. or:
In the beginning was the Life and the Life was with God and the Life was God.

All this in strict compliance with the Jewish Law of Agencies which is basically as follows, "Jesus (Yeshua) was God's (YHWH's) appointed agent in accordance with the 'Biblical law of agency' described as, "Scripture mentions something being done by Person A, whilst another mentions it being done by Person B. This is best understood when we grasp the Schaliach Principle, or the Jewish Law of Agency, which is expressed in the dictum, "A person's agent is regarded as the person himself.

Yes christ in the flesh was Gods representative, but was also the fruit of him. Not just another being. God in whom there is no darkness at all,no sin,pure all knowledge all truth, humbled himself to be born of a woman, born under the law, born into the filthiness of the world, out of his eternal love So that he might save us.

Christ was not a created being. Christ was the wisdom of God. And this wisdom became
Flesh.

 

[iris89]

Hi Everyone

The facts respecting the trinity in brief are:

This false doctrine is defined in The Cyclopoedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, New York 1871, by John M'Clintock and James Strong, Vol. II, page 560-561, states, "We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the



persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.....The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal...So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty...So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet there are not three Gods, but one God...The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding...And in this Trinity none is afore or after other; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal together, and coequal. So that in all things, as is afore said, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity." [this is the Athanasian Creed quoted in the above mentioned Cyclopoedia].





This doctrine clearly states that the three persons are coeternal together, and coequal, but the scriptures clearly show otherwise. Take for example the two scriptures, John 5:26 and John 6:57:



John 5:26, "For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:" (American Standard Version; ASV)



John 6:57, "As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father; so he that eateth me, he also shall live because of me." (ASV).



Clearly show that no co-equality exist with respect Jesus (Yeshua) and his Father, Almighty God (YHWH). This is impossible as Jesus (Yeshua) himself testified that the "Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son" which would be of course would be impossible if they were as this false doctrine falsely claims that they are coeternal and coequal.



Likewise, Jesus (Yeshua) clearly states, "I live because of the Father" which would of course not be the case if they were as this false doctrine falsely claims that they are coeternal and coequal. To further emphasis the fact that that he was NOT coequal with his Father (YHWH), Jesus (Yeshua) testified at John 14:28, "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." (AV) to show his Father (YHWH) was greater than himself; hence, NOT coequal as the false doctrine of the Trinity claims.



For those who wish to learn more, go to the following and learn the facts as no post on this or any other BB forum chan change the truth and reality:



Documentary on the Book of John Being Anti-Trinitarian-In Multiple Parts:

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=97



and;



Mainstream Religion Sold Out To Paganism, Details Sellout to Pagan Politicians

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=209



and;



Trinity = Absurd to the Extreme:

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=61



and;



Colossians 2:8-12 & John 1:1 - Learn The Facts

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=93



and;



Scourge of Christendom, The Pagan Trinity:

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=58



and;



Trinity = Absurd God (YHWH) Dishonoring Doctrine:

http://p078.ezboard.com/fyahwehstruthinchristfrm2.showMessage?topicID=58.topic



and;



Discourse on John 8:58:

http://p078.ezboard.com/fyahwehstruthinchristfrm2.showMessage?topicID=83.topic




Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[iris89]

Hi jade0887

You should accept Jesus (Yeshua). You should learn more about him and to that end I have written a very long documentary you will find at:

Learn - Documentary on Our Savior Jesus (Yeshua):

http://p078.ezboard.com/fyahwehstruthinchristfrm2.showMessage?topicID=74.topic
Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[LittleNipper]

iris89:

Clearly, the verses that you provied (when you provide verses) are from and about Jesus while in HIS human incarnation. The body form of the GODHEAD became a person of flesh and blood and assumed the role of a servant. GOD can sympathize with man because through Jesus HE knows what it is to be a moral man. You keep telling us about pagan worship and their false beliefs. However, Satan is an IMITATOR of the truth. He twists it just enough to distort and confuse. Christ is GOD with us. Pagan religions have their own godheads and or trinities to mimic the truth and confuse the unbelieving-----keeping them lost.

God is the ONLY one we are to worship-------------Jesus is to be worshipped--------therefore Jesus is God. The Bible is very clear in this regard if no other. The TRINITY expresses the BODY< SOUL< SPIRIT of the single essence we know as GOD. That is why we are said to be Created in the image of GOD. We ARE in fact a type of trinity. We exist as body, soul, and spirit. The outward, the inward and our motivation. We are either children of GOD or children of the devil (motivation). We are either young, old, or decaying (our body). We are either alive, present with the Lord or in hell (our soul).

 

[iris89]

Hi LittleNipper



Your statement,

Clearly, the verses that you provied (when you provide verses) are

from and about Jesus while in HIS human incarnation. The body form

of the GODHEAD became a person of flesh and blood and assumed the

role of a servant. GOD can sympathize with man because through Jesus

HE knows what it is to be a moral man. You keep telling us about

pagan worship and their false beliefs. However, Satan is an IMITATOR

of the truth. He twists it just enough to distort and confuse.

Christ is GOD with us. Pagan religions have their own godheads and

or trinities to mimic the truth and confuse the

unbelieving-----keeping them lost.

Obviously you are unaware of the facts with respect the Trinity and how it snuck into so called Christianity from paganism and is really NOT a Christian doctrine, but a God (YHWH) dishonoring doctrine from Satan the Devil per 2 Corinthians 4:4, “In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.” (Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible).



Let’s Look at the facts, in brief:

SATAN'S TRICK - FALSE DOCTRINE EVOLUTION:

Now do most mainstream religions through the ages have anything in common be they so called Christian or pagan? Absolutely, history shows that one mainstream religion evolved into another one while maintaining many of the beliefs of the one before it, but simply changing the name of the God(s). No where is this more self evident than with respect to the doctrine of the Trinity. In has been with us since at least the time of ancient Sumeria as shown by The historian H. W. F. Saggs explains that the Babylonian triad consisted of three gods of roughly equal rank. Their "inter-relationship is of the essence of their natures." Is this positive proof that the Christian trinity descended from the ancient Sumerian, Assyrian, and Babylonian triads? (*1). No. However, Hislop furthers the comparison: "In the unity of that One, Only God of the Babylonians there were three persons, and to symbolize that doctrine of the trinity they employed...the equilateral triangle, just as it is well known the Romish Church does at this day." (*2).



Yes, the concept of a trinity has been a prevailing belief for a very, very long time perhaps longer than most Christians would imagine. While worshipping innumerable minor deities, triads of gods appeared in all the ancient cultures of Sumer, Babylonia, Egypt, India, Greece and finally Rome. The "mysteries" of the first universal civilization, Babylonia, were transported down in time. The names of the gods changed. The details of ancient incomprehensible religions changed, but the essential ideas were the same. The Sumerians worshipped Anu (the Father), Enlil (the god of earth) and Enki (the lord of wisdom). The Egyptians worshipped Amun who was really three gods in one: Re was his face; Ptah his body and Amun his hidden identity "combined as three embodiments or aspects of one supreme and triune deity." (*4 - page 201)…..



HISTORY OF POLITICAL INTRIGUE AND DECEIT THAT EVOLVED THE TRINITY INTO SO CALLED CHRISTIANITY:



To understand how the Trinity wormed its way into so called Christianity we need to know the political and social climate of the first three centuries after the passing of Jesus (Yeshua) and his apostles, and why true faith deteriorated into compromise; and then total acceptance by the mainstream so called Christian groups, not withstanding its violation of the Word of God, the Holy Bible. Now let's look at that period and try an insert ourselves mentally into it....


By the third and fourth centuries, Christians were weary of Pagan persecution. The temptation was to compromise....


Roman Emperor Constantine needed to make his subjects feel secure if he were to maintain control of the empire; he wanted to rule a unified empire, be it pagan and/or Christian. But first he would have to find a way to end the dispute over the divinity of Jesus-was he a man or God? So he ordered his Christian bishops to meet at Nicaea in 325 A.D. to settle the matter once and for all. To do this, "he made himself the head of the church, and thus the problems of the church became his responsibilities. As a whole the Western Empire with its Roman influence, with some exceptions, had accepted Tertullian and his new theory of the Trinity in the early part of the previous century, but in the East the church adhered more closely to the older formula of baptism in the name of Jesus, or Jesus the Christ. Especially was this true with the Armenians, who specified that baptism "into the death of Christ" was that which alone was essential (*28) .



Now let's see how Constantine got the Trinity. As previously shown, The Roman Empire at this time was being torn apart by religious differences between pagans, mostly Sun God worshippers, and Christianity. Constantine the Emporer was a worshipper of the Unconquered Sun, but he was a very pragmatic individual and saw the need to bring religious unity to his empire. The central doctrine of the pagans was the dogma of a Trinity that they had received from earlier pagans in Babylon (Chaldea). In this, the pagan Emperor, Constantine, saw a possibility for unifying his empire if he could only lead the majority of the Christians to accept a Trinity or a Duality. He knew however that he had to make them think it was their own idea. To this end, he, the Roman emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea, about 300, but even though it was the emperor's direction, only a fraction actually attended...


So is was the political product of an apostate church, an apostate church that allowed a pagan Roman Emporer, Constantine, to tell it which dogma to accept at the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D., and then have it rammed down their throats as blessed dogma by another Roman Emporer, Theodosius, at the Council of Constantinople in 381 A.D. This in direct violation of God's (YHWH's) word found in the Bible " Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." (James 4:4 AV), " If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." (John 15:19 AV).



Their solution was to create a creed making it illegal for anyone to believe Jesus was not the same as God by inventing the notion of a Trinity. This intellectual tower remained in full force for well over a thousand years, until the Reformation. (*29).



Contrary to popular belief, it was not Constantine's fourth century Council of Nicea in A.D. 325 that formalized the "Doctrine of the Trinity." The Athanasian Creed in the fifth century finally included the three, "the godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost...the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal So likewise the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Ghost is God; and yet they are not three Gods, but one God." Furthermore, this creed added that belief in the trinity "is necessary to everlasting salvation." Strong belief led to action. "Probably more Christians were slaughtered by Christians in these two years ([A.D.]342-3) than by all the persecutions of Christians by pagans in the history of Rome." (*30).[source - DISCOURSE ON MAINSTREAM by Iris the Preacher, see full text Plus other factual items at:



Mainstream Religion Sold Out To Paganism, Details Sellout to Pagan Politicians

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=209

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[iris89]

Hi LittleNipper



You make the opinionated statement without backup of,

God is the ONLY one we are to worship-------------Jesus is to be

worshipped--------therefore Jesus is God. The Bible is very clear in

this regard if no other. The TRINITY expresses the BODY< SOUL<

SPIRIT of the single essence we know as GOD. That is why we are said

to be Created in the image of GOD. We ARE in fact a type of trinity.

We exist as body, soul, and spirit. The outward, the inward and

our motivation. We are either children of GOD or children of the

devil (motivation). We are either young, old, or decaying (our

body). We are either alive, present with the Lord or in hell (our

soul).

But the facts are different and clearly spelled out in the Bible that he, Jesus (Yeshua) is NOT his Father, Almighty God (YHWH) and is clearly stated in many places. Some of which are – all from the Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible; DRCB::



Matthew 4:3 - [DRCB]

And the tempter coming said to him: If thou be the SonofGod, command that these stones be made bread.

Matthew 4:6 - [DRCB]

And said to him: If thou be the SonofGod, cast thyself down, for it is written: That he hath given his angels charge over thee, and in their hands shall they bear thee up, lest perhaps thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Matthew 8:29 - [DRCB]

And behold they cried out, saying: What have we to do with thee, Jesus SonofGod? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Matthew 14:33 - [DRCB]

And they that were in the boat came and adored him, saying: Indeed thou art the SonofGod.

Matthew 16:16 - [DRCB]

Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Sonof the living God.

Matthew 26:63 - [DRCB]

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said to him: I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us if thou be the Christ the SonofGod.

Matthew 26:64 - [DRCB]

Jesus saith to him: Thou hast said it. Nevertheless I say to you, hereafter you shall see the Sonof man sitting on the right hand of the power ofGod and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 27:40 - [DRCB]

And saying: Vah, thou that destroyest the temple ofGod and in three days dost rebuild it: save thy own self. If thou be the SonofGod, come down from the cross.

Matthew 27:43 - [DRCB]

He trusted in God: let him now deliver him if he will have him. For he said: I am the SonofGod.

So you, I hope, can now see your error. I have made this easy by having Son of God in blue so you can easily find it and all scriptures in red.




Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[LittleNipper]

Again, these verses are about Jesus the incarnate man while about his mission on earth. In Revelation's there is a totally different Jesus.
Jude it must be remembered was the half brother of Jesus.
Jude verse 4

For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our GOD into a license for immortality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Jude 9

But even the archangel Michael, when de disputed with the devil about the body of Moses, DID NOT DARE to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, " The Lord rebuke you!"

Matthew 16:23

Jesus turned and said to Peter, "OUT OF MY SIGHT, SATAN! YOU ARE A STUMBLING BLOCK TO ME; you do not have in mind the things of GOD, but the things of men."

Jesus was not Michael either, it would seem.

 

[TheIdealist]

iam coming in here a little late but i belive when jesus was being baptized and holy ghost descended as a dove and God spoke from the heavens that that showed three seperate individuals and if not and god was throwing his voice while being baptized and the bird being the holy ghost seems to me that he would be a decietfull god