The Trinity

[Katzpur]

the bible does not describe Cain or Abel this way even though both were also Adams sons, it is not about likeness of physical appearance.

Of course it's about physical appearance. Adam begat sons after his image and his likeness. How much more obvious could it be?

I guess you're not going to give me an example of how you personally would use the word "image" in a sentence to mean something other than this. Don't worry. I've asked dozens of people to do this, and none of them can. It doesn't seem to bother any of them any more than it does you.

While you're at it, could you explain how Jesus could be "the express image of His Father's person" if His Father was not a physically distinct being with a physical form?

 

[Arch-Angel]

um no, your saying that through physical appearances Adam had daughters that looked like him in his image and not Eve's? you are trying to rub some kind of other context on this, you asked me to use another place where it says this and i have, because you wont accept it doesn't mean that context isn't the same.

 

[Arch-Angel]

heres another one if you need it though.

Mark 12:14-17 14And when they had come, they said unto Him, "Master, we know that thou art true and carest for no man; for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth. Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?15Shall we give, or shall we not give?" But He, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, "Why tempt ye Me? Bring Me a penny, that I may see it."16And they brought it, and He said unto them, "Whose image and superscription is this?" And they said unto Him, "Caesar's."17And Jesus answering, said unto them, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they marveled at Him.

The Jews understood this because Jesus was saying they belonged to God because they were made in His image, that was why they marveled, it was remarkably simple.

 

[Hanslope]

"I am Jewish, and according to Judaism, God is absolutely One; not two or three.
Therefore, no Trinity."

In one of the two creation myths of Genesis we read, in Genesis 1:2 that "the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters". So at the beginning of the scripture we have "God" and "the Spirit of God" !:yes:

 

[Bill Abercrombie]

To Dream Angel
The subject of the Trinity can be very detailed. I am member of the Church of Christ
a simple answer is found in I John 5: 7-8
The king James version of the bible is a word for word transalation from the original Greek so it is the best to look at on most any subject. Very few mistranslations in it.

 

[Humza]

The belief in "God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Ghost" is a flagrant denial of the unity of God and an audacious confession in three imperfect beings who, unitedly or seperately cannot be the true God.
Mathematics as a positive science teaches us that a unit is no more nor less than one; that one is never equal to one plus one plus one; in other words, one cannot be equal to three, because one is the third of three.

 

[cataway]

To Dream Angel
The subject of the Trinity can be very detailed. I am member of the Church of Christ
a simple answer is found in I John 5: 7-8
The king James version of the bible is a word for word transalation from the original Greek so it is the best to look at on most any subject. Very few mistranslations in it.

(1 John 5:7, 8) For there are three witness bearers, 8 the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement.

 

[cataway]

How did water, blood, and spirit bear witness to the fact that “Jesus is the Son of God”? Water was a witness bearer because when Jesus was baptized in water, Jehovah himself expressed His approval of him as His Son. (Matt. 3:17) Jesus’ blood, or life, given as “a corresponding ransom for all,” also showed that Jesus is God’s Son. (1 Tim. 2:5, 6) And the holy spirit testified that Jesus is the Son of God when it descended upon him at his baptism, enabling him to go “through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil.”—John 1:29-34; Acts 10:38.

 

[Humza]

Also we are told that each person of the trinity has some particular attributes which are not proper to the other two. And these attributes indicate - according to human reasoning and language - priority and posteriority among them. The Father always holds the first rank, and is prior to the Son. The Holy Ghost is not only posterior as the third in the order of counting but even inferior to those from who he proceeds.
Therefore my question is, Would it not be considered a sin of heresy if the names of the three persons were conversely repeated?

 

[Humza]

Can we not say,
"In the name of the Holy Ghost, and of the Son, and of the Father"?
For if they are absolutely equal and coeval, the order of precedence need not to be so scrupulously observed.

 

[sojourner]

The belief in "God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Ghost" is a flagrant denial of the unity of God and an audacious confession in three imperfect beings who, unitedly or seperately cannot be the true God.
Mathematics as a positive science teaches us that a unit is no more nor less than one; that one is never equal to one plus one plus one; in other words, one cannot be equal to three, because one is the third of three.

I absolutely disagree. When one is added to one, is added to one, and a sum is determined, we end up with one mathematical expression, which has one answer, even though there are several whole things, in and of themselves, which comprise the one problem.

The human body is one "unit," yet is comprised of many parts, none of which, when separated from the body, are any less human than they are when connected to the others. That's the whole argument against the legality of stem cell research.

a community is one "unit," yet is comprised of many people, none of which, when leaving town, are seen to be "no longer part" of the community. And when they go, the community is still a community.

That's what the Trinity is, an expression of "God-as-community," for, as Augustine posits, God is love. Love exists only when there is a relationship of persons.

 

[Humza]

I absolutely disagree. When one is added to one, is added to one, and a sum is determined, we end up with one mathematical expression, which has one answer, even though there are several whole things, in and of themselves, which comprise the one problem.

The human body is one "unit," yet is comprised of many parts, none of which, when separated from the body, are any less human than they are when connected to the others. That's the whole argument against the legality of stem cell research.

a community is one "unit," yet is comprised of many people, none of which, when leaving town, are seen to be "no longer part" of the community. And when they go, the community is still a community.

That's what the Trinity is, an expression of "God-as-community," for, as Augustine posits, God is love. Love exists only when there is a relationship of persons.

The attributes of God are not to be considered as distinct and seperate divine entities or personalities, otherwise we shall have, not one trinity of persons in the Godhead, but several dozen of trinities. An attribute until it actually emanates from its subject has no existance. We cannot qualify the subject by a particular attribute before that attribute has actually proceeded from it and is seen. Hence we say "God is Good" when we enjoy His good and kind action; but we cannot describe Him - properly speaking - as "God is Goodness" because goodness is not God, but his action and work
So therefore how can God be love? For love is the action of the lover and not the lover himself, just as knowledge or word is an action of the knowing person and not himself.

 

[sojourner]

The attributes of God are not to be considered as distinct and seperate divine entities or personalities, otherwise we shall have, not one trinity of persons in the Godhead, but several dozen of trinities. An attribute until it actually emanates from its subject has no existance. We cannot qualify the subject by a particular attribute before that attribute has actually proceeded from it and is seen. Hence we say "God is Good" when we enjoy His good and kind action; but we cannot describe Him - properly speaking - as "God is Goodness" because goodness is not God, but his action and work
So therefore how can God be love? For love is the action of the lover and not the lover himself, just as knowledge or word is an action of the knowing person and not himself.

"Love is not an emanation or 'property' of the substance of God... but is constitutive of [His] substance, i.e., it is that which makes God what [He] is, the one God. Thus love ceases to be a qualifying -- i.e., secondary -- property of being and becomes the supreme ontological predicate. love as God's mode of existence 'hypostatsizes' God, constitutes [His] being."

John D. Zizioulas, Being as Communion: Studies in Personhood and the Church (Crestwood, N.Y.: St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1985), 243, 244

 

[Humza]

I absolutely disagree. When one is added to one, is added to one, and a sum is determined, we end up with one mathematical expression, which has one answer, even though there are several whole things, in and of themselves, which comprise the one problem.

The human body is one "unit," yet is comprised of many parts, none of which, when separated from the body, are any less human than they are when connected to the others. That's the whole argument against the legality of stem cell research.

a community is one "unit," yet is comprised of many people, none of which, when leaving town, are seen to be "no longer part" of the community. And when they go, the community is still a community.

That's what the Trinity is, an expression of "God-as-community," for, as Augustine posits, God is love. Love exists only when there is a relationship of persons.

The Old Testament condemns the doctrine of 3 persons in God; the New Testament does not expressly hold or defend it, but even if it contains hints and traces concerning Trinity, it is no authority at all, because it was neither seen nor written by Christ himself, nor in the language he spoke, nor did it exist in its present form and contents for - at least - the first two centuries after him.

 

[sojourner]

The Old Testament condemns the doctrine of 3 persons in God; the New Testament does not expressly hold or defend it, but even if it contains hints and traces concerning Trinity, it is no authority at all, because it was neither seen nor written by Christ himself, nor in the language he spoke, nor did it exist in its present form and contents for - at least - the first two centuries after him.

We are not solely an OT group, though. The NT certainly does carry as much textual authority for us as the OT, and, since it is we who determine what is and is not authoritative for us, we (not you) have the final say on that issue. Therefore, your argument has no authoritative ground for this issue. Further, since the Trinity was not a concept that the OT writers conceived, they cannot, by definition, "condemn" what they do not know. Therefore, your argument is moot. Finally, Xy has always been a movement (denoting "motion"). The Faith is a moving and growing and developing Faith, as God is always about the business of creating. Therefore, it doesn't matter if it was conceived in the beginning, or not. Jesus certainly wasn't conceived of by the OT writers. He came along later. So did the concept of the Trinity, which we do hold to be authoritative revelation, brought, not through scripture, but through Tradition, which is one of the three bases for doctrine and belief in our religion.

Your arguments are simply not cogent, because they do not address the reality of what Xy is -- they only reflect what you wish it were.
Your rebuttal of, "Nuh-uh" doesn't detract in any way from the validity of the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[Humza]

We are not solely an OT group, though. The NT certainly does carry as much textual authority for us as the OT, and, since it is we who determine what is and is not authoritative for us, we (not you) have the final say on that issue. Therefore, your argument has no authoritative ground for this issue. Further, since the Trinity was not a concept that the OT writers conceived, they cannot, by definition, "condemn" what they do not know. Therefore, your argument is moot. Finally, Xy has always been a movement (denoting "motion"). The Faith is a moving and growing and developing Faith, as God is always about the business of creating. Therefore, it doesn't matter if it was conceived in the beginning, or not. Jesus certainly wasn't conceived of by the OT writers. He came along later. So did the concept of the Trinity, which we do hold to be authoritative revelation, brought, not through scripture, but through Tradition, which is one of the three bases for doctrine and belief in our religion.

Your arguments are simply not cogent, because they do not address the reality of what Xy is -- they only reflect what you wish it were.
Your rebuttal of, "Nuh-uh" doesn't detract in any way from the validity of the doctrine of the Trinity.

1 God = 1 God + 1 God + 1God; therefore 1 God = 3 Gods.
1+1+1=1?
Explain.

 

[HeartFire]

Our Heavenly Father is Spirit, our Heavenly Mother is the material universe. We are the offspring of both. Scriptures state that God is spirit, just as the scriptures state that we were formed from the dust of the ground (material universe).

Our Heavenly Father is the head of our family unit, and our Heavenly Mother rears us in the physical world. Our Mother supplies our physical needs to survive, just as our Father supplies our spiritual needs to survive. Together they make up God [plural] and we, their offspring, complete the God-head (Family).

Our Heavenly Father is our spiritual life force and our Heavenly Mother is our physical life force. The Holy Spirit is love and the power of our parents (God). Love is the motive of (God). It is the motivation behind all life. When God's motive is embraced by us fully, the Holy Spirit enables us to live abundantly.

We are part of the God-head (family) and in order for us to live abundant lives, we are required to honor both mother and father, then live through the Spirit behind them both (Love).

The Trinity as understood by HeartFire. :yes:

No label to be had, aside from brother in Christ

 

[Shermana]

To Dream Angel
The subject of the Trinity can be very detailed. I am member of the Church of Christ
a simple answer is found in I John 5: 7-8
The king James version of the bible is a word for word transalation from the original Greek so it is the best to look at on most any subject. Very few mistranslations in it.

There is not a single manuscript that demonstrates the "original Greek" used this in the Comma Johannum, it is only seen in a 16th century manuscript. What are they teaching these days, seriously!

 

[Shermana]

Can we not say,
"In the name of the Holy Ghost, and of the Son, and of the Father"?
For if they are absolutely equal and coeval, the order of precedence need not to be so scrupulously observed.

This verse too is also widely seen as an interpolation, and was most likely just "in my name" as seen in Eusebius' version.

The "formula" is also seen interpolated into such extracanonical works like the Didache Chapter 7 and in various forms of the alleged Epistles of Ignatius.

 

[Shiranui117]

1 God = 1 God + 1 God + 1God; therefore 1 God = 3 Gods.
1+1+1=1?
Explain.

I hope you don't mind if I adapt a post I made in another topic, but it really covers your question well, I think.

Before we continue, the following two disclaimers need to be made:
1: When we Christians speak of the Trinity, we do NOT define it as God having schizophrenia or multiple-personality disorder; the Trinity is not God switching between three different "modes" or "masks."

2: When we Christians speak of the Trinity, we do NOT mean to say that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three wholly separate entities. We do not have three Gods, but One. We do not hold the Mormon position of "Three persons united in purpose only."

Now that that's out of the way, here is the actual definition of what the Trinity is, courtesy of OrthodoxWiki.org:

Orthodox Christians worship the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—the Holy Trinity, the one God. Following the Holy Scriptures and the Church Fathers, the Church believes that the Trinity is three divine persons (hypostases) who share one essence (ousia). It is paradoxical to believe thus, but that is how God has revealed himself. All three persons are consubstantial with each other, that is, they are of one essence (homoousios) and coeternal. There never was a time when any of the persons of the Trinity did not exist. God is beyond and before time and yet acts within time, moving and speaking within history.
God is not an impersonal essence or mere "higher power," but rather each of the divine persons relates to mankind personally. Neither is God a simple name for three gods (i.e., polytheism), but rather the Orthodox faith is monotheist and yet Trinitarian. The God of the Orthodox Christian Church is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the I AM who revealed himself to Moses in the burning bush.The source and unity of the Holy Trinity is the Father, from whom the Son is begotten and also from whom the Spirit proceeds. Thus, the Father is both the ground of unity of the Trinity and also of distinction. . .
The primary statement of what the Church believes about God is to be found in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed.

Now, to define those Greek terms that showed up in that quote:

-Hypostasis: A person.
-Ousia: An essence; i.e. that which makes an entity that particular entity; for example, the essence of Shiranui117 is different from the essence of horizon_mj.
-Homoousios: Of one essence.

In this case, since Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all of the same Divine Essence, they all are one "being," each Person being fully God. It is not a case of 1/3+1/3+1/3=1, or of 1+1+1=3, but 1+1+1=1. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not just "parts" of God, but are each fully God in their own right. Yet they are not separate, but one. Three distinct Persons, yet one God. Distinct, yet not separate. United, yet not confused or mixed.

Ordinarily, one essence=one person. Peter, James and John all share a human nature, but each of them have their own particular essence, i.e. that which makes them who they are. However, with God, you have three Persons sharing one Essence. So they are not three separate beings like Peter, James and John, but are truly one God yet three Persons.