The Trinity

[Katzpur]

Please provide all definitions for the word "Forasmuch"

Okay, but why?
forasmuch(Adverb)

1. Inasmuch, seeing (that).
2. forasmuch(Adverb)
   So far as; with regard to so much as.
3. in consideration that; seeing that; since; because (that).

It was a poet who said that we are the offspring of God, not God, not an apostle, an unnamed poet who said it.

It was a poet who was clearly familiar to the early Christians, and it was an apostle who quoted him. I don't think Paul would have used this "unnamed poet" as a source if he hadn't agreed with the sentiment. Furthermore, when he quoted this poet and said, "inasmuch as we are the offspring of God..." no one in his audience raised any objections to the statement. Evidently, it was a good enough argument that none of them tried to refute it.

 

[Sonofason]

Okay, but why?
forasmuch(Adverb)

1. Inasmuch, seeing (that).
2. forasmuch(Adverb)
   So far as; with regard to so much as.
3. in consideration that; seeing that; since; because (that).

It was a poet who was clearly familiar to the early Christians, and it was an apostle who quoted him. I don't think Paul would have used this "unnamed poet" as a source if he hadn't agreed with the sentiment. Furthermore, when he quoted this poet and said, "inasmuch as we are the offspring of God..." no one in his audience raised any objections to the statement. Evidently, it was a good enough argument that none of them tried to refute it.

I guess we'll have to leave it at that. Your argument from your perspective seems rather sound, and you are certainly entitled to hold that view. But I disagree.

 

[Katzpur]

I guess we'll have to leave it at that. Your argument from your perspective seems rather sound, and you are certainly entitled to hold that view. But I disagree.

Sounds good to me. I'm not one of those people who absolutely has to be right anyway.

 

[Sonofason]

Sounds good to me. I'm not one of those people who absolutely has to be right anyway.

Well, don't get me wrong. I'd like to be right. But in this case, I am not so certain that I should become overly stubborn over it.

 

[Katzpur]

Well, don't get me wrong. I'd like to be right. But in this case, I am not so certain that I should become overly stubborn over it.

None of us should -- ever.

 

[kjw47]

Well, not in any of these translations:
Nestle GNT 1904
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.
Westcott and Hort 1881
ΕΝ ΑΡΧΗ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
ΕΝ ΑΡΧΗ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Greek Orthodox Church 1904
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.

Tischendorf 8th Edition
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος

Oh sorry, these aren't translations. These are exactly what was written, that's why they all read exactly the same. Thus I must conclude that you need to get yourself a different translation.

Most assuredly all trinity translations. But there were a few translations in history that did not call the Word God at John 1:1.
OT, and history proves God is a single being mono God named YHWH(Jehovah) --Jesus' God--John 20:17,Rev 3:12. 1Cor 15:24-28-- The God of Abraham,Noah,Job, Moses and every Israelite after up until today. 100% fact--the God taught to Jesus in the synagogues--he never refuted it.
This is the God one must serve==John 4:22-24

 

[Sonofason]

Most assuredly all trinity translations. But there were a few translations in history that did not call the Word God at John 1:1.
OT, and history proves God is a single being mono God named YHWH(Jehovah) --Jesus' God--John 20:17,Rev 3:12. 1Cor 15:24-28-- The God of Abraham,Noah,Job, Moses and every Israelite after up until today. 100% fact--the God taught to Jesus in the synagogues--he never refuted it.
This is the God one must serve==John 4:22-24

Sir, these are not translations. John was written in Greek. All of these texts are in the Greek. You don't need to translate from Greek to Greek.

Please find me the Greek translation that does not call the Word, God at John 1:1

And you're right John 4:22-24 is equally true. We are to worship God the Father.

 

[kjw47]

Sir, these are not translations. John was written in Greek. All of these texts are in the Greek. You don't need to translate from Greek to Greek.

Please find me the Greek translation that does not call the Word, God at John 1:1

And you're right John 4:22-24 is equally true. We are to worship God the Father.

There are 0 original writings left in existence--we have Catholicism writings and after. The facts prove it all--only the Father is God almighty.
The majority know Catholicism is a twisted mass of lies--carried over into every protestant religions as well--they tried to fix some of it but failed in the major wrongs.

 

[Sonofason]

There are 0 original writings left in existence--we have Catholicism writings and after. The facts prove it all--only the Father is God almighty.
The majority know Catholicism is a twisted mass of lies--carried over into every protestant religions as well--they tried to fix some of it but failed in the major wrongs.

If there are no original copies, and the only copy you have says that the Word is God, then please tell me where you are getting your information. Because I honestly have no reason to believe that you know anything beyond what the Bible says, and you are clearly denying what it says.

 

[kjw47]

If there are no original copies, and the only copy you have says that the Word is God, then please tell me where you are getting your information. Because I honestly have no reason to believe that you know anything beyond what the Bible says, and you are clearly denying what it says.

The Israelites still have their originals. The Israelites have been telling trinities they are serving a false god for the last 1750 years or so. The trinities refuse to be wrong as the Pharisees refused to be wrong about the things Jesus told them were wrong. The word is god( small g is correct).

 

[kjw47]

If there are no original copies, and the only copy you have says that the Word is God, then please tell me where you are getting your information. Because I honestly have no reason to believe that you know anything beyond what the Bible says, and you are clearly denying what it says.

Its not me denying what Gods word says.
Here is what the 4 main players in the nt teach( Jesus, Paul, Peter, John--- 100% in agreement--Jesus has a God, his Father. John 20:17, Rev 3:12--- 2Cor 1:3, 1Cor 8:6, 1Cor 15:24-28--- 1Peter 1:3--- Rev 1:6. ---- Does God have a God?
John wrote John 1:1----- He surely didn't contradict himself or the other 3 by putting a capitol G in the last line of John 1:1---anyways--the second line would read---God was with God( and another God ( HS) over there as well----- in the trinity teaching. Its hard to count one in that teaching. Its not the God( trinity) Abraham, Noah, Job, David, Elijah, Moses and every single Israelite to this day serve or ever served--- The facts of history and what those 4 assured men of God teach---I will serve that God--YHWH(Jehovah)--psalm 83:18
Jesus' advice, is to do the same-John 4:22-24, John 17: 1-6,26

 

[Desert Snake]

1+1+1=1 makes no sense.

That's because it's the wrong equation. The correct equation is 1-->3 manifestations. Look up Oneness Doctrine, it explains it well.

The problem is that people started thinking that Jesus wasn't God, but the Son only..This is incorrect theology, because the "Son" is Jesus in man form, not Jesus in God form/Jehovah.

 

[kjw47]

That's because it's the wrong equation. The correct equation is 1-->3 manifestations. Look up Oneness Doctrine, it explains it well.

The problem is that people started thinking that Jesus wasn't God, but the Son only..This is incorrect theology, because the "Son" is Jesus in man form, not Jesus in God form/Jehovah.

What name are you taught that goes here( Father only)--John 17:6,26--The Lords prayer---Father--Hallowed be thy name--- Jehovah is the Father alone.
Your teachers lied to you when they told you Moses wrote the word Elohim and used it as gods( he used it in more of--majestic, but plural compared to human king, because Jehovah was king in the ot( not Jesus) Jesus had to be appointed king by his God( ancient of days)( Daniel 7:13-15) --he( Moses) wouldn't for an iota call God more than a single being mono God named YHWH( Jehovah)--Moses and every single Israelite from him down to this day that serve or served the true God--served YHWH(Jehovah) a single being mono God. So did Matt, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, etc--every true servant, even Jesus. That is why Jesus taught this truth--John 4:22-24-- this is what one needs to be doing. And Jesus taught --( John 17:3--one needs to take in knowledge( know)of Jehovah as well, and of Jesus. And then this truth-1Cor 15:24-28---- upon handing back the kingdom to his God and Father, Jesus subjects himself---- forever.
Getting to the Father is ones destination.

 

[Desert Snake]

Your teachers lied to you when they told you Moses wrote the word Elohim and used it as gods

Actually that is where you have a problem. Because with other usage of the word Elohim, it does seem to imply plurality, not to mention the 'our' reference which in my book means 'God and the Host'. In any case, the trinity has always meant monotheism, and that is what the thread is about. If you choose to not accept the Deity of Jesus, that's your prerogative, but the meaning of the trinity stays the same.

 

[Sonofason]

The Israelites still have their originals. The Israelites have been telling trinities they are serving a false god for the last 1750 years or so. The trinities refuse to be wrong as the Pharisees refused to be wrong about the things Jesus told them were wrong. The word is god( small g is correct).

Please explain how you come to the conclusion that "the word is god(small g is correct)" is correct.

 

[Sonofason]

Its not me denying what Gods word says.
Here is what the 4 main players in the nt teach( Jesus, Paul, Peter, John--- 100% in agreement--Jesus has a God, his Father. John 20:17, Rev 3:12--- 2Cor 1:3, 1Cor 8:6, 1Cor 15:24-28--- 1Peter 1:3--- Rev 1:6. ---- Does God have a God?
John wrote John 1:1----- He surely didn't contradict himself or the other 3 by putting a capitol G in the last line of John 1:1---anyways--the second line would read---God was with God( and another God ( HS) over there as well----- in the trinity teaching. Its hard to count one in that teaching. Its not the God( trinity) Abraham, Noah, Job, David, Elijah, Moses and every single Israelite to this day serve or ever served--- The facts of history and what those 4 assured men of God teach---I will serve that God--YHWH(Jehovah)--psalm 83:18
Jesus' advice, is to do the same-John 4:22-24, John 17: 1-6,26

Sorry, I don't buy it. I need some evidence. Explain how you come to your conclusion.

 

[Muffled]

I said this....."When looking closely, this is not about Jesus being God, being that it says that God, Jesus, and believers are all one."

And that was what Muffled was replying to when he answered with this...."I beleive you need to read your text again because it does not say that."...... Because he believes that it does.....which is why he wrote this in response...... "I believe since these versess are clear in context that Jesus is God in the flesh."

He does believe that Jesus is God in the flesh.....I do not.
Muffled correct me if I am wrong.

I believe you are correct in assessing what I said.

I believe I have God in me as Jesus prayed to have happen but I am not often one with God ie God taking over my mind because I am a sinner and like to run at least some of my own life and because God isn't going to bother with such things as brushing teeth and eating meals. These days I always have a God consiuosness but that is more of a background thing than control of my mind.

So I beleive Jesus may pray for us to be one but our tendency is to not have it that way.

 

[Muffled]

If one applied the Trinity to mathematics it would look like poop in a punch bowl.
1+1+1=1 makes no sense. If you are trying to quantify anything yet alone sum it cannot break something so objective.

I believe this metaphor might help. If you have a bottle of rum and pour some into apple juice and some into other alcoholic beverages and juice the rum would still be rum no matter what drink it is in. So God who is disparate somewhat like rum which as fluid can be in different places and still called rum, can be in different people and places and still be God.

 

[Muffled]

Remembering that all letters were of the lower case.....
Man was also called god...

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Psalms 82:6

And so God has referred to others as god also.
And so it would have looked like this...

but unto the son he saith, thy throne, o god, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

I believe that would work if it were not for the Qu'ranic verse that says Jesus would never say He is a god. If Jesus wouldn't say it then God wouldn't either so it must mean that He is saying God.

 

[kjw47]

Sorry, I don't buy it. I need some evidence. Explain how you come to your conclusion.

See all the scriptures---they back up every word I said.