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The True Origin of Reality

Quadrivium

Member
The OP has a valid point, and is going in the right direction in my opinion, but it an example of superficial depth from my viewpoint. He is going WAY to into things that we as humans aren't capable of understanding from a logical standpoint at this time. There are way too many things going on at the level that he is trying describe, to be able to describe in any logical way. Hence, why enlighten folks always speak in simple parables to describe the mysteries of reality/universe. It's not only easier for us simple folks to understand, but, in my opinion, it is the only way to describe the experience of this reality in anyway that is comprehendible.

I am simple folk by the way, and this depth is probably pretty superficial. The real value is in visualizing various patterns of fundamental behaviors. Not struggling through lexical limitations. Rather my goal was to illustrate fundamental information and coherence which is not my invention or something, its established. Then connect that behavior to an analogy. Then connect that analogy to all other things. But I find my self trying to prove I'm not on Mars or something which is senseless.

I'm terrible at debate, so I am learning and that's good.
 

Quadrivium

Member
It isn't undefined its just variable. It can't be literally any value it can only be values that equate to themselves. Typically that would include every value we could ever describe. Unfortunately, being that we are fallible, we can often perceive things equating to each other when they don't. The equation of nothing and everything is one such case.

It isn't undefined its just variable. It can't be literally any value it can only be values that equate to themselves. Typically that would include every value we could ever describe. Unfortunately, being that we are fallible, we can often perceive things equating to each other when they don't. The equation of nothing and everything is one such case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_(mathematical_constant)

Pi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These concepts disagree. These "values" are certainly undefined and not variable.
 

Quadrivium

Member
The purpose of meaning is its use. Words have meaning, something they signify (point to) in the world. Some of them point at subjective things, some of them point at objective things.

Meaning does not equal reason: reason is the 'sense' that meanings (can) make. Things have to make sense to be useful, both subjective things and objective things.

Truth is objective only because that's how we use it.

That's very human. And probably the reason this topic is so challenging to discuss.
 

Quadrivium

Member
Alright, I don't know if this is what your getting at. -the problem is with language I think. Key words get interpreted sometimes differently by the "reader" the was not the intent of the "writer".

Man creates the universe along with everything else which exists. We are a cause that act to create the universe each moment but we are also acted on buy the universe. Where we draw separations are a matter of convenience to provide identity.

IOW we each contribute to the next moment of the universe. That resulting moment also has an effect on man which affects have we affect the next upcoming moment.

Like an equation which constantly feeds back into itself however with each iteration the complexity of the equation increases thereby increasing the complexity of the results which again is fed back into the equation, actually altering the equation again.

Math however is a language. It is a very precise language. We use it to describe the universe when we feel precision is necessary. We create math and use it to "create" the universe. Our use of it alters our actions, our actions alter the universe.

There is never nothing, there is all ways something. Even nothing is something. So to say the universe came from nothing is really saying the universe came from something.

Now assuming this is somewhat close to the meaning you are trying to convey, what benefit do you see in this understanding?

Truth. An understanding for things being able to have arisen without the need of anything.

Enrichment. An understanding of morality based on the concept that we are all one thing.

Enrichment. An understanding that we are also all unique.

Enrichment. Understanding that we are both infinite and temporary.

Resentment. Gods' and fear tear families and societies apart. I think we can overcome this, and the truth can help us achieve a higher level of human/global prosperity.

Also its just neat.
 

Quadrivium

Member
Pulling our leg with word salad, posting for reaction, not debateable content.

I'm not pulling anyone legs, I'm just bad at communicating. I assumed providing links to information was enough but I now understand its not reasonable to ask anyone spend the amount of time it takes to read all of those things.

I know how I've come to realize these things and I can't expect anyone else to share my experience. I'm trying to share my conclusions though. Its probably best done in the form of a book though, not a religious forum.

I think I got hung up on religion because I liked the similarities of the religious trinities and what I'm claiming is truth.
 

Quadrivium

Member
Einstein worked on relativity until he died. Never did finish it. Was my point.

Which means the unknown is a filiment of reality [in other words]

Im not sure all that word salad was not POE. I refuse to engage fully until then.

I'd suggest there's a potentially infinite amount of unknown. But there's no reason we can't understand why that is. And that doesn't negate the ability to know some things.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I'd suggest there's a potentially infinite amount of unknown. But there's no reason we can't understand why that is. And that doesn't negate the ability to know some things.

Agreed.

I am happy saying I dont know rather then guess.


We still need to figure out gravity before larger answers
 

Quadrivium

Member
I think if one has an idea

And has to use a whole page to load the minds of readers, maybe one might shorten his proposition up a wee bit.

Keep it simple.

Again I am not sure there ever was anything here to debate or not. Word salad was way to deep to see the bowl.

I agree but the how do you describe something that seems obviously false.

And when the validity lives in the combination of many abstract and natural things.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I agree but the how do you describe something that seems obviously false.

And when the validity lives in the combination of many abstract and natural things.

Maybe it is false. I don't know. Your into deeper then I am.


Natural things are on our level of reality, our dimensions.

Abstract, and quantum is not our reality, even though it is a part of it.
 

Quadrivium

Member
As far as I know, anything divided by zero is considered undefined, and is not variable. Therefore any value divided by zero would be, according to most mathematical systems, equal, in that they are both "undefined". Now you could argue that two undefined "values" are not equal, due to the fact that they are actually not defined values at all, and I would probably agree with you.

But if you considered that the value "undefined" as equal to any other "undefined" then you could substitute any "value" in for the variable and they would essentially equal each other. So the values you place as the numerator would not have to equate to themselves at all. Any variable you place as the numerator when divided by zero, would be equal to any other value placed as the numerator when divided by zero.

However, this would be considered a mathematical fallacy by most arithmetic calculations for proofs, but it can be used to demonstrate the (false) equation that infinity(everything) is equal to 0(nothing).

((0/0) x infinity) = ((0/0) x 0)

If you simplify this equation then you would get that 0 = infinity. But as I said above this is considered a mathematical fallacy under most mathematical systems.

I would agree, I like your statement better. That mathematics describes everything in the universe, but in a way I also agree that mathematics drives the universe as well. But I don't think the OP even understands the words he was using to promote this driving of the universe, but I'd love to here an explanation of how it actually works.

I'm suggesting that it's not a mathematical fallacy, rather the founders of mathematical logic have determined this a fallacy to avoid the complication.

I posted a link to a paper written by a Harvard Professor of mathematical logic that describes Russell's paradox (set theory) being by no means true, and its the same concept for this issue of 'dividing by zero'.

The issue is of recursive self-reference. When you divide anything by zero, you literally and intuitively get infinity. But this doesn't seem useful when trying to calculate finite value, so we've labeled it fallacy, or undefined.

In the meantime math describes and drives everything else, except we continue to ignore this natural aspect of mathematical calculation.
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
So you deny the idea that I am absent on Mars because that involves absence. Nor am I present on Mars, because the obvious. For the sake of argument you allow total unification of relativity, but also expect definite position denying it?

But if I am not on mars, and also on mars, then I am both and neither to some degree. I argue yes I proved your position wrong as you've agreed, but no I didn't because it is actually both. Though we've never defined me or mars or any of these things because this topics gone retarded.

Again, it is one or the other and not both. Please just get it already, Kanye.

If [quanta of you] is present on Mars, then you are present on Mars.
If [quanta of you] is absent from Mars, then you are absent from Mars.
If [quanta of you] is present on Mars, then you are not absent from Mars.
If [quanta of you] is absent from Mars, then you are not present on Mars.

You populated [quanta of you]. I accepted that quantization, meaning that you are present on Mars, regardless of my assertion to the opposite. However, the second question is, "How does that constitute absence?" You have failed to answer that.

The reality is that its all rhetorical. I didn't actually expect you to (nor do I need you to) populate [quanta of you] with anything. I don't expect you to (nor do I need you to) answer the second question either. The implication is quite clear.

Originally I was highlighting that you changed your stance on absence and absloutes, and I used this questioning of me being on Mars and Earth across different times for an example of things being absent and not absent, as in one moment they are the other they are not.

Except that I didn't change my position on that. All I said was that absence is necessarily absolute, so calling it absolute is unnecessary. One moment something is absolutely present... then next moment absolutely absent. See how that doesn't change the situation at all? Present one moment, absent the next. Makes nothing different by calling it absolute absence.

Then you changed the subject to twist my words against me by using the very logic I proposed in the first place claiming that if you are wrong then I am wrong. Or something... You won at confusing me and I have no clue what we were actually talking about. So Im moving on to the next reply, we can come back to this later or something and start over with clearer communication, as I don't want to keep going back to various posts trying to find out what I even said that you were replying to etc...

I didn't twist anything. I am not using the logic you proposed at all. I am not saying that if I am wrong you are wrong. The only thing I would be wrong about is whether or not you are present on Mars. Stating that you are not on Mars is to establish the necessity of the questions that follow.

You: I am both present on Mars and absent from Mars.
Me: You are not present on mars. Why do you think you are present on Mars?
You: [Quanta of me] is present on Mars.
Me: Oh okay. Then how are you absent?
You: See you agree that its both!
Me: :facepalm:
 

nash8

Da man, when I walk thru!
Also, how did anything that you proposed in your OP, demonstrate that you are both simultaneously on mars and on earth?

The only thing that I've seen researching those links is that they promote a specific brand of wave theory that demonstrates that the center of said wave function is, in actuality, what demonstrates particle like qualities when observed. It also states that space is actually what is vibrating, and therefore what we are perceiving when we see matter, rather than a group of particles.

I will say, it is very interesting stuff, but from what I gathered, it in no way implies that "you" are simultaneously on earth and mars, or conversely absent on Earth and Mars.

I guess I could see that you are trying to imply that since, according to these theories, that all matter is actually vibrations of "empty space" that we in affect "don't exist", but in my opinion, you are missing the entire point of the theories. The "vibrations of empty space" are, in effect, caused by the waves being emitted by different "particles" that are vibrating the aforementioned empty space.

So we are not actually "empty space", but rather we are the result of "particle/waves" vibrating the empty space, which is not necessarily a new idea, and from what I have gathered, is pretty much the common theory amongst quantum physicists for quantum mechanics, although I haven't seen it presented in the way that you presented it, which I will admit was pretty ingenious, although you definitely could have shortened things down without all the philosophical nothingness and non-absolute location nonsense.

But along with that, the holographic universe theories do present an interesting aspect of non-absolute location, although not so much the nothingness in my opinion. Although Hawking once supported the idea of the holographic universe theory, he has since come to oppose the theory due to some experiments that did not confirm the calculations that would promote the holographic universe theory. Even though Hawking no longer supports it, I still believe that the universe is holographic in nature due to the fractal nature of reality, which in a way is representative of a holograph.

In any regard, your presence at more than one location, or none at all, depends on your definition of "self", and according to the information you presented, unless you could prove that your specific "resonant frequency", which implies "yourself" according to these theories, exists simultaneously on Earth and mars, which I personally find would be difficult to prove, then you have no logical stance that you simultaneously exist in both places.

And on the subject of you not existing at all, then you would have no "resonant frequency" to speak of, and you would not be able to type anything at all. If you are arguing that everything is made up of nothing but empty space and waves, then I think a large majority of members on here would agree with you. But along those lines, you have the possible presence of the Higgs Boson/Higgs Field which could throw a wrench in the entire wave vs. particle argument all together.

What do the wave coherence theories that you presented have to say about the wave function vs. the particle attributes of the Higgs?
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
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