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The "Two Causes" Solution to the Religion and Science Conflict

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
The issue of a primary cause is a metaphysical or theological issue, not a scientific one.

Says who? Is it so just because you prefer it to be so? Are you concerned that the scientific implications of the primary cause might undermine all of the hocus-pocus that metaphysics and theologies come up with?

Before you can claim that the primary cause is not a scientific issues, you have to explain why.
 

Kuzcotopia

If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
Efficient causation and final causation work in tandem. Science is primarily based on studying efficient causation. But it assumes the regularities of nature that final causation makes possible.

Thanks for the link. Read the blog by Freser, as well as the philosophical paper it was based on. The primary issue with this is that, as many others on this thread have suggested, you have to assume the Theist position that there is a God first, prior to relating to the argument. The argument assumed God as a given, and the goal is to reconcile his action to the reliability of out observations about the natural world. I would normally cede the existence of God either, but that has already been presented many times in this thread.

I think the way you've presented this argument, it might be worth getting into for the sake of the exercise. So let's say the assumption was true. The western Theist version of God exists, and everybody on this thread has specifically been raised Catholic, and whatnot. We, for the sake of the argument, read up on Catholic philosophy regularly, and accept that the prime focus on any intellectual inquiry is not the existence of God (which is given), but determining the the nature of Him and his relationships to the rest of reality. Our goal of this argument (under these assumptions, of course) is to reconcile the accepted truth that God exists and is the prime mover of the universe to the possibility of reliable empirical evidence. Bold assumptions to get to this point, but I think it might be fun to play along. Let's get esoteric!

This gives us three possibilities, as outline in the blog article by Feser (and Freddoso's paper published in American Catholic Philosophical Quarterly). These are nifty terms:

Mere Conservationism
If yes, then the deity you allow for is cold, distant, and is as far removed from reality as to be irrelevant.

Occasionalism
If no, the all secondary causes are suspect and empirical evidence is irrelevant, because at any given moment a primary mover can alter it. There is no science, just magic.

Concurrentism
Efficient causation and final causation work in tandem. Science is primarily based on studying efficient causation. But it assumes the regularities of nature that final causation makes possible.

The issue is knowledge and lack of knowledge about God. Concurrentism assumes several aspects of God:

1. He sustains the universe's natural laws, but in a deterministic way that essentially limits his Omnipotence. If there are no limitations to his Omnipotence, then these natural laws must necessarily be suspect. Can God choose otherwise if the final causation is determined? If his will is predetermined enough to sustain a concurrent string of causal relationships, then doesn't that necessarily extend to limit our choices, or his? Does that limit God's freewill, or does it limit our agency?

2a. Under Concurrentism, the scientific method requires an additional supernatural epistemology to account for efficient causation. With every metaphor presented in the argument (not repeating here), we are successfully able to discern what part of the final cause is efficient causation, and what part is material cause. Not so when dealing with God and nature. Technically, it should be possible to determine which aspect of our empirical evidence is efficient causation and which part is not, but God cannot be compared to anything. There is the potential for confusing material causation with efficient causation in our observations, and there are no methodologies available to to resolve the confusion.

2b. Under Concurrentism, the scientific method requires an additional supernatural epistemology to account for efficient causation. It's very ironic that the article you linked is called Middle Men, because it requires a metaphysical understanding of nature that is irrelevant. Occam's Razor. . . why complicate an issue that must account for God's hand in the natural world, when it's essentially irrelevant under concurrentism?

3. The concept of four causes comes from Aristotle. Aristotelian theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The initial terminology make an argument that suggests the possibility of prime movers (plural). This suggests a logical conclusion that is henotheistic, violating our theistic understand of a singular, perfect God. Furthermore, it suggests that the nature of these Gods are essentially Deistic, and can do nothing but engage in self-contemplative thought. They are, by implication, unable to contemplate anything else but themselves .I understand that Aquinas has appropriated the arguments of Aristotle (Scientist #1) to prove the claim of a singular God that does not also violate our intelligence and common sense. But take the argument to the correct conclusion instead of cherry-picking it for your own desires. Aristotle is great, but he is not compatible with the theistic wordview we assume is true.

In the end, intelligent arguments are all circular if the initial premise is not logical. If I take away the assumption that God exists, everything I wrote above falls to pieces, as does everything you have written. So ignore everything I wrote as an pointless esoteric exercise, or deal with it point by point if you want. We can be reasonable, either way.

But if you believe in God in the first place, you do so independently of your reason. It's just that simple.
 

Gambit

Well-Known Member
Says who? Is it so just because you prefer it to be so? Are you concerned that the scientific implications of the primary cause might undermine all of the hocus-pocus that metaphysics and theologies come up with?

Before you can claim that the primary cause is not a scientific issues, you have to explain why.

Because science cannot explain how nothing became something. It's beyond the purview of science. And if you cannot see that, then we will have to agree to disagree. We obviously reached an impasse beyond which any fruitful debate will not be possible.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I consider it metaphysics masquerading as physics.
My question was:
"Have you ever seen science encroaching on religion other than to present evidence or conclusions that may conflict with religious beliefs?"

In as much as you didn't say "No," I take your following explanation to be a "Yes."
I have seen prominent scientists (e.g. Lawrence Krauss and Stephen Hawking) with an atheistic agenda who have overstepped the boundaries of science by making this pretense that science can explain why there is something rather than nothing.

To which I incredulously asked.
And you consider that to be encroaching on religion?
Looking for an explanation as to how this could qualify as encroachment on religion.

To which you now respond in explanation:
I consider it metaphysics masquerading as physics.
So metaphysics masquerading as physics is an encroachment on religion? Give us a break! If you want to change horses in mid-stream fine, but don't try to tell us you're riding the same horse. Not that we haven't seen such avoidance tactics before, it's just that the ploy has grown tiresome. Very tiresome.
 
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Gambit

Well-Known Member
In the end, intelligent arguments are all circular if the initial premise is not logical. If I take away the assumption that God exists, everything I wrote above falls to pieces, as does everything you have written. So ignore everything I wrote as an pointless esoteric exercise, or deal with it point by point if you want. We can be reasonable, either way.

I am tempted to ignore everything you wrote because you go off on tangents and are given to bloviation. I would suggest in the future that you learn how to stay on topic and write more succinctly. (Keep in mind that you're not the only individual I have to respond to in this thread.)

Several points:

1) The primary argument I made in this thread is the "two causes" solution to the religion and science conflict. The primary cause is the subject matter of religion (metaphysics and theology); secondary causes are the subject matter of science.

2) Whether you believe the primary cause is God or not is actually irrelevant. The point is that the primary cause is beyond the purview of science (or more specifically, it is beyond the purview of physics).

3) To explain more specifically how efficient causation and final causation work in tandem would require me to explain process metaphysics to you (which is beyond the scope of this thread). Suffice it to say that all actual entities exhibit both efficient causation and final causation.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Yes, this model assumes that God is the primary cause . What else would be the primary cause, the creator? And it resolves the conflict by establishing separate domains.

A child with a universe simulator in a metaphysical existence that very much resembles our own. Why not?
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Making the distinction between the primary cause and secondary causes is the "two causes" solution to the religion and science conflict (a solution which was originally proposed by Scholasticism). The primary cause (a.k.a. God) is the domain of religion (metaphysics and theology). Secondary causes (natural causes) is the domain of science. (God as the primary cause works indirectly through secondary causes in order to accomplish the divine plan.)

As far as I am concerned, the primary cause does not have to be God. Nor does it allow anyone to say anything meaningful about the primary cause. Other than that, the distinction is relevant.
 

Kuzcotopia

If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
I am tempted to ignore everything you wrote because you go off on tangents and are given to bloviation. I would suggest in the future that you learn how to stay on topic and write more succinctly. (Keep in mind that you're not the only individual I have to respond to in this thread.)

Several points:

1) The primary argument I made in this thread is the "two causes" solution to the religion and science conflict. The primary cause is the subject matter of religion (metaphysics and theology); secondary causes are the subject matter of science.

2) Whether you believe the primary cause is God or not is actually irrelevant. The point is that the primary cause is beyond the purview of science (or more specifically, it is beyond the purview of physics).

3) To explain more specifically how efficient causation and final causation work in tandem would require me to explain process metaphysics to you (which is beyond the scope of this thread). Suffice it to say that all actual entities exhibit both efficient causation and final causation.

I humored you and actually read your sources. I've taken a lot of time trying to actually understanding your argument. Most other disagreements on this thread have the same basic objection, whereas I actually accepted the premises. You go ad hominem?

And you actually did give in to your temptation. You did not address my points at all.

But I'll be courteous and address yours:

1. Addressed it. Disagree with the logic of it. Explained my concerns in detail. If they are off topic, or rely on misunderstandings or poor logic, explain why.

2. Nonsense. Physics can't know about it but somehow you do?

3. That is absolutely within the scope of this thread. Why would anyone be willing to accept the conclusion of a logical process without understanding the logical process itself?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Yes, this model assumes that God is the primary cause . What else would be the primary cause, the creator?

Do you have any way of establishing that there is a primary cause?

And it resolves the conflict by establishing separate domains.
No, it is just an attempt at decreeing out of thin air that there is no conflict.
 

Gambit

Well-Known Member
2. Nonsense. Physics can't know about it but somehow you do?

What exactly aren't you grasping here? What I can know or not know about the primary cause is a matter of metaphysics, not science.

3. That is absolutely within the scope of this thread. Why would anyone be willing to accept the conclusion of a logical process without understanding the logical process itself?

Our first-person experience of our own subjectivity provides us with clear evidence that we act according to some purpose (teleology or final causation).
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
I do. But whether I can or can't is not the issue here. The issue is that science can't.
No, that is false. Science HASN'T fully explained the origin of the universe, you can not honestly claim that it CAN not, because that is not knowable. It is an utterly fatuous claim.
You primary misassumption is that science needs to have an explanation for everything - it doesn't.

Your position is based entirely on a claim ( that science can not explain the origins of the universe), which is frankly just ludicrous - science does not need to have an explanation - it is something to research, not something science claims complete knowledge of.

What on earth gave you the strange notion that because science does not 'explain' something, it is therefore a limitation of science - and thus the realm of metaphysics I honestly have no idea whatsoever. People keep asking you to give a rationale for your extraordinary claim, but you just repeat it and never meaningfully defend it.
 

Kuzcotopia

If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
Establishing a primary cause is not the subject matter of this thread.

You assume the concept of a primary cause and that the cause is metaphysical and beyond scientific inquiry. To make your claim work, you have to establish the veracity of those
assumptions. Of course that is the subject matter of this thread.

Ad nauseam repetitions of the same statement is not a conversation. I actually tried to have a discussion that assumed your premises, and you chose to ignore that potential discussion completely in favor of an ad hominem.

Why so cagey? Just lay out the argument. Do you understand it yourself? I admit that it's challenging, so if that's the problem, fine. Just do your best.
 
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