The U.S. was not founded as a Christian nation.

[logician]

For those of you who think otherwise, here are the words straight from our founding fathers mouths, in a treaty with Tripoli, drafted in 1796 by George Washington, and signed by John Adams in 1797:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion, as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmenl and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Let's face it, our founding fathers stood head and shoulders above our current crop of religious fanatics in government, in both wisdom and intelligence. We need more people like this in government.

 

[Popeyesays]

The founders were theists, not Christians.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Magic Man]

The founders were theists, not Christians.

Regards,
Scott

That's partly true. Some seem to have been deists.

 

[lilithu]

That's partly true. Some seem to have been deists.

Can't speak for Scott but when I used the word "theist" I don't just mean classical theist. I mean anyone who accepts some type of concept of deity, which would include deist.

Altho I'm not sure what people mean when they say that many of the founding fathers were deists. My understanding of deism is the belief that God created the universe and then left it to run on its own, ie - no longer intervenes. But Jefferson clearly did not believe that even tho he's the one who most often gets called a deist. (Well, him and Thomas Paine.)

Back to the OP. The U.S. was not founded as a Christian nation. The fathers intended it to be broader than that. But they were still men of their times and a lot of "Christianity" crept in. Still, they laid down the principles for a secular nation because they wisely perceived this would be most beneficial to both church and state.

 

[logician]

"A professorship of theology should have no place in our institutions"

Thomas Jefferson.

As has been said, many of our founding fathers claimed to be deists, although as Dawkins has pointed out, they probably would be atheists in today's society given the environment they lived in at the time. Famous scientists who were or are de facto atheists are Albert Einstein, Carl Sagan, and Stephen Hawking, and of course, Dawkins is an atheist.

 

[lilithu]

As has been said, many of our founding fathers claimed to be deists, although as Dawkins has pointed out, they probably would be atheists in today's society given the environment they lived in at the time. Famous scientists who were or are de facto atheists are Albert Einstein, Carl Sagan, and Stephen Hawking, and of course, Dawkins is an atheist.

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever. . . the Almighty has no attribute that can take side with us in such a contest."

- Thomas Jefferson​

"God does not play dice with the universe."​

- Albert Einstein
​

 

[Magic Man]

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever. . . the Almighty has no attribute that can take side with us in such a contest."

- Thomas Jefferson​

"God does not play dice with the universe."

- Albert Einstein​

The second one is out of context. I don't remember the whole thing, I'd have to look it up, but Einstein, if a believer in anything, was a pantheist or panentheist.

There is also a thought that Jefferson and others showed outward belief i theism to keep up the pretense for the public. I'm not going to say whether it's right or wrong, but it's very possible.

 

[Azakel]

The founders were theists, not Christians.

Regards,
Scott

He doesn't understand that there's a difference. He like to generalize all Theist.

 

[Popeyesays]

One mujst also consideer the historical events between Tripoli and the United States in the ears around the beginning of the nineteenth centur. The U.S. was paying tribute to the nati9on of Tripoli which was largel funded b pirate activit in the Mediterranean.

Jefferson resisted the formation of a national nav no matter how intensel dependent the U. S. was on trade with Europe. He though a professional nav would be a hotbed of insurrection in the new US government. He even suspected Washington of having roal ambitions.

Once Jefferson was gone from office a nav was established with its first real test being a small time war with the Barbar Pirates including Tripoli. Edward Preble commanded the US flotilla in the Mediterranean comprised of Constitution, Philadelphia and a hand ful of smaller warships.

The Marine Hmn calls back to that war with the "shores of Tripoli" line.

The war was fought becfause with a nav to handle the situation the U.S. no longer needed to pa tribute to avoid the piratical activities of the Barbar kingdoms.

The treat logician brought up was in part to appease the Tripolitanian king and lower the tribute rate, hence the language minimizing the influence of Christianit in the American nation to flatter the King of Tripoli.

Hence it is in large part diplomatic double-talk.

Edward Preble - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regards,
Scott

 

[Magic Man]

One mujst also consideer the historical events between Tripoli and the United States in the ears around the beginning of the nineteenth centur. The U.S. was paying tribute to the nati9on of Tripoli which was largel funded b pirate activit in the Mediterranean.

Jefferson resisted the formation of a national nav no matter how intensel dependent the U. S. was on trade with Europe. He though a professional nav would be a hotbed of insurrection in the new US government. He even suspected Washington of having roal ambitions.

Once Jefferson was gone from office a nav was established with its first real test being a small time war with the Barbar Pirates including Tripoli. Edward Preble commanded the US flotilla in the Mediterranean comprised of Constitution, Philadelphia and a hand ful of smaller warships.

The Marine Hmn calls back to that war with the "shores of Tripoli" line.

The war was fought becfause with a nav to handle the situation the U.S. no longer needed to pa tribute to avoid the piratical activities of the Barbar kingdoms.

The treat logician brought up was in part to appease the Tripolitanian king and lower the tribute rate, hence the language minimizing the influence of Christianit in the American nation to flatter the King of Tripoli.

Hence it is in large part diplomatic double-talk.

Edward Preble - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regards,
Scott

This is true, and I was going to bring it up, but didn't have the energy. Thank you for it. The next question, though, is how much do you think that the extrication of it in the later copy was an attempt to appease Christians here?

 

[Somkid]

The US wasn't founded on any religion the kooks added it later.

 

[logician]

"
Hence it is in large part diplomatic double-talk.
"

BS

 

[Magic Man]

"
Hence it is in large part diplomatic double-talk.
"

BS

Yes, that is another way of saying it, it is indeed in large part diplomatic BS.

 

[lilithu]

The second one is out of context. I don't remember the whole thing, I'd have to look it up, but Einstein, if a believer in anything, was a pantheist or panentheist.

Einstein was a panentheist, as am I. Panentheists are NOT atheists.

There is also a thought that Jefferson and others showed outward belief i theism to keep up the pretense for the public. I'm not going to say whether it's right or wrong, but it's very possible.

Are we suggesting that the founding fathers were liars?

 

[Father Heathen]

*points at the link in his signature*

Oh, and as for Einstein: "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science." & "[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it."[/FONT]

 

[Magic Man]

Einstein was a panentheist, as am I. Panentheists are NOT atheists.

No, I'm not saying they are, but the quote you used implies him to be more of a theist or at least deist. That's all.

Are we suggesting that the founding fathers were liars?

They were politicians. Sometimes, lies are good for the greater good. I'm not claiming that they were liars, but there is some evidence for it.

 

[Popeyesays]

*points at the link in his signature*

Oh, and as for Einstein: "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science." & "[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it."[/FONT]

He also said he believed God did not cast dice. Count all the qualifications in his statement and deduce the exceptions to those qualifications.

I believe in God but I do not believe God directs or influences our decisions. To decide is why we are here in the first place.

Regards,
Scott

 

[lilithu]

No, I'm not saying they are, but the quote you used implies him to be more of a theist or at least deist. That's all.

The quote I used was in direct response to logician making the claim that Einstein was an atheist. My point is that Einstein believed in God. I didn't say what kind of god. It's really a pity that so many people can only conceive of the traditional Christian god/classical theism and no god/atheism as the two possibilities. It leaves out all the rest of us.

The claim by some atheists that all our revered thinkers were/are in fact atheists, whether they identified as such or not, is to me no different than the claim by some Christians that all our revered thinkers were/are in fact Christians. Some were/are truly Christian. Some were/are truly atheist. And believe it or not the rest ran/run the gamut.

Jefferson was a Unitarian. And no, I'm not claiming all our founding fathers were Unitarians, only the ones who actually were. And while Unitarians have oft been accused of being atheists, at the time of Jefferson they were most definitely not (unlike today where many UUs are). As for whether he was faking it for show, I'll leave that up to the conspiracy theorists.

 

[Magic Man]

The quote I used was in direct response to logician making the claim that Einstein was an atheist. My point is that Einstein believed in God. I didn't say what kind of god. It's really a pity that so many people can only conceive of the traditional Christian god/classical theism and no god/atheism as the two possibilities. It leaves out all the rest of us.

The claim by some atheists that all our revered thinkers were/are in fact atheists, whether they identified as such or not, is to me no different than the claim by some Christians that all our revered thinkers were/are in fact Christians. Some were/are truly Christian. Some were/are truly atheist. And believe it or not the rest ran/run the gamut.

Jefferson was a Unitarian. And no, I'm not claiming all our founding fathers were Unitarians, only the ones who actually were. And while Unitarians have oft been accused of being atheists, at the time of Jefferson they were most definitely not (unlike today where many UUs are). As for whether he was faking it for show, I'll leave that up to the conspiracy theorists.

I understand, but I'd put panentheists closer to atheists than to theists. I'm not saying they're the same, but it's not a huge leap to go from atheist to panentheist, whereas going from atheist to theist is life-changing.

I wouldn't say it's a conspiracy theory about Jefferson. It's just that sometimes it makes sense to lie to appease people. Politicians do it all the time. Personally I don't think it really matters whether he was or was not an atheist. I don't really think it matters in the case of many politicians, as long as they don't let their religion or lack thereof get in the way of their duties. I wouldn't blame Jefferson for going along with Christianity superficially at the time to appease some people. There is at least one anecdote that shows him to only be going through the motions with Christianity. When I find it, I'll post a link, or the story.

 

[lilithu]

I understand, but I'd put panentheists closer to atheists than to theists.

If by "theist" you mean classical theist, then you have a case. When I used the word "theist" I mean someone who accepts some kind of concept of deity.

I wouldn't blame Jefferson for going along with Christianity superficially at the time to appease some people. There is at least one anecdote that shows him to only be going through the motions with Christianity. When I find it, I'll post a link, or the story.

I have quotes of Jefferson lambasting Christianity. He didn't pretend to be Christian, so I don't see why he would pretend to believe in God if he didn't.