The U.S. was not founded as a Christian nation.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hey Buffalo is representing! I like the point you made. That's what I've been saying all along. In regards to Christianity, I brought up the point that English is not the official language by any written document but it is implied. Mestemia says it must be documented to be official. Guess what, it was documented. The day the Constitution was written in it.

Your logic does not work generally. The British North America Act was originally written exclusively in English, but Canada is officially bilingual.

 

[a_student]

Your logic does not work generally. The British North America Act was originally written exclusively in English, but Canada is officially bilingual.

But in Canada's case, an official language was declared. Here it is just implied. If it was declared by congress tomorrow that Spanish was the official language, that would change everything. Two different scenarios. Besides, there is no North American Government.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But in Canada's case, an official language was declared. Here it is just implied.

Is it? I think that's the question.

Besides, there is no North American Government.

The British North America Act is the name of the piece of legislation that created the country of Canada. This doesn't mean that it applies to the United States, just that your implicit argument (i.e. "the language in which a country's founding law is written establishes the country's official language") cannot be considered to be generally true.

 

[a_student]

Is it? I think that's the question.


The British North America Act is the name of the piece of legislation that created the country of Canada. This doesn't mean that it applies to the United States, just that your implicit argument (i.e. "the language in which a country's founding law is written establishes the country's official language") cannot be considered to be generally true.

No, not when one has been declared. But in the case of the US, there has been no declaration. If I was traveling from Africa to the US and asked "What language do they speak there?" the answer would be "English." Not, "Well, there is no official language so (blah blah blah)..." It's funny how people get so upset when Mexicans speak Spanish here. They say "This is America! Speak English!" If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck. There is a law that if you stay on someone's property (say plant a garden somewhere in their backyard or whatever) for like 7 years and they never tell you to leave, then it is officially your property. No documents or agreements necessary. It was implied. Centuries of speaking English, writing laws in English, etc. has made English the official language of the United States, written or not.

 

[Popeyesays]

No, not when one has been declared. But in the case of the US, there has been no declaration. If I was traveling from Africa to the US and asked "What language do they speak there?" the answer would be "English." Not, "Well, there is no official language so (blah blah blah)..." It's funny how people get so upset when Mexicans speak Spanish here. They say "This is America! Speak English!" If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck. There is a law that if you stay on someone's property (say plant a garden somewhere in their backyard or whatever) for like 7 years and they never tell you to leave, then it is officially your property. No documents or agreements necessary. It was implied. Centuries of speaking English, writing laws in English, etc. has made English the official language of the United States, written or not.

So what you say is that the law is not what is declared but what is customary?

That's a p***-poor argument.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

Hey Buffalo is representing! I like the point you made. That's what I've been saying all along. In regards to Christianity, I brought up the point that English is not the official language by any written document but it is implied. Mestemia says it must be documented to be official. Guess what, it was documented. The day the Constitution was written in it.

In a word, no.

Ther Magna Carta, for instance was written in English, but the customary court language was still French.

Regards,
Scott

 

[McBell]

Who did I insult? If you're referring to my Canadian remark I'm sorry to inform you that I am from Buffalo, NY. I have walked across the Canadian border so many times that you could practically call me half Canadian. I feel I have a right to make that joke. No harm done.

I am referring to your snide remark about clues.

I wish I could call your argument weak but you really haven't made one. You just disagree with everything I say but have yet to say anything for me to disagree with. You have not made 1 single point. How can you argue with me that English is not the official language in the United States when I was the one who pointed that out in the first place?

My argument is that you do not understand the difference between most common and official.

Please be so kind as to actually read post #396.
There are several points in it that you have conveniently not addressed.
Not to mention the ones in post #392.

Your failure to actually understand and or address the points made does not make them disappear.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, not when one has been declared. But in the case of the US, there has been no declaration.

And in the case of Canada, there was no declaration of official languages until the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms was enacted in 1982. Was English the sole official language of Canada in 1981?

If I was traveling from Africa to the US and asked "What language do they speak there?" the answer would be "English." Not, "Well, there is no official language so (blah blah blah)..."

Yes, that's because "what language do people speak in the US?" is not the same question as "what is the official language of the US?"

And back to my example, I'm fairly certain that if you travelled to Africa, or even through the United States, you'd find a high proportion of people who would tell you that Toronto is the capital of Canada, but that doesn't make it actually so.

It's funny how people get so upset when Mexicans speak Spanish here. They say "This is America! Speak English!" If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck. There is a law that if you stay on someone's property (say plant a garden somewhere in their backyard or whatever) for like 7 years and they never tell you to leave, then it is officially your property. No documents or agreements necessary. It was implied. Centuries of speaking English, writing laws in English, etc. has made English the official language of the United States, written or not.

Ah... so official languages are determined by squatter's rights? :sarcastic How long do Spanish speakers have to keep speaking Spanish in Texas and California before that becomes the official language there?

 

[a_student]

of·fi·cial (

-f

sh

l)adj.

1. Of or relating to an office or a post of authority: official duties.
2. Authorized by a proper authority; authoritative: official permission.
3. Holding office or serving in a public capacity: an official representative.
4. Characteristic of or befitting a person of authority; formal: an official banquet.
5. Authorized by or contained in the U.S. Pharmacopoeia or National Formulary. Used of drugs.​

​

How, exactly, does this support your claim?
​

The actual people who live in America, the lawmakers, the immigrants who learn the language, they don't count as "proper authority?" Then who does? I just mentioned everyone in the US.

Now 'mandatory' equates 'official?'

You are clearly twisting or misunderstanding what I am saying. Let's backtrack. First, this tread is about the US being founded as a Christian nation. I said "No. It wasn't. But it is implied that Christianity is the official religion. Then I gave the example that English was not the official language but it is implied. Now why would it be mandatory to learn English in this country? That's what I said. I don't remember saying mandatory equates to official.

 

[a_student]

And in the case of Canada, there was no declaration of official languages until the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms was enacted in 1982. Was English the sole official language of Canada in 1981?

Well clearly there was a need to make a declaration. Here, there is no need for that. There may be, soon, however.

Yes, that's because "what language do people speak in the US?" is not the same question as "what is the official language of the US?"

"Oh great! There is no official language so I can just go there and speak Swahili and be just fine." That's nonsense. If you come to the US you'd better be able to speak some English.

And back to my example, I'm fairly certain that if you travelled to Africa, or even through the United States, you'd find a high proportion of people who would tell you that Toronto is the capital of Canada, but that doesn't make it actually so.

Again, that's totally different. Ottawa has clearly been declared the capital, regardless of a common misconception. Can't really compare the two.

Ah... so official languages are determined by squatter's rights? :sarcastic How long do Spanish speakers have to keep speaking Spanish in Texas and California before that becomes the official language there?

Like in Canada in 1982, soon it will be declared that English and Spanish are the official languages of the US. Soon there will be a need to do that. Before, there was no need to declare English the official language because that was obvious.

 

[Autodidact]

But the fact is it's still practiced in a court of law, which is sanctioned by the United States government.

No, it isn't. Drop by your local courtroom; you will not find any Bible on or near the witness stand.

English is NOT the official language of the United States but laws are still written in it. However, there is nothing ON PAPER that says English is the official language. Just like there is nothing on paper that says America is a Christian nation. One only needs to live here to come to these assumptions, written or not.

It is a statistical fact that most Americans are Christian. That is the only sense in which what you are saying is true. Our government, however, is not; it is secular. Our ancestors fought and died for just that purpose.

 

[Quiddity]

No, it isn't. Drop by your local courtroom; you will not find any Bible on or near the witness stand. It is a statistical fact that most Americans are Christian. That is the only sense in which what you are saying is true. Our government, however, is not; it is secular. Our ancestors fought and died for just that purpose.

Just remember that because it's "secular" doesn't exclude it from having a Christian influence. It just can't be the only one.

 

[McBell]

You are clearly twisting or misunderstanding what I am saying. Let's backtrack.

so now asking a question is "clearly twisting or misunderstanding?"

First, this tread is about the US being founded as a Christian nation. I said "No. It wasn't. But it is implied that Christianity is the official religion. Then I gave the example that English was not the official language but it is implied. Now why would it be mandatory to learn English in this country? That's what I said. I don't remember saying mandatory equates to official.

Why is it mandatory to learn English before you can (OMG not the 'O' word!!) officially become a citizen?
Gee, could it be because everything is in English?
Could it be because without a general understanding of English one would not get along very well in a country that is predominately English?

 

[a_student]

so now asking a question is "clearly twisting or misunderstanding?"

Why would you ask that question? I definitely did not say mandatory equates to official. And yet you asked:

Now 'mandatory' equates 'official?'

This leads me to believe either you didn't understand what I said or you are trying to turn it into something different.

Why is it mandatory to learn English before you can (OMG not the 'O' word!!) officially become a citizen?
Gee, could it be because everything is in English?
Could it be because without a general understanding of English one would not get along very well in a country that is predominately English?

Thank you, very much! :clap:clap:clap

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well clearly there was a need to make a declaration. Here, there is no need for that. There may be, soon, however.

In the case of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, there was no need to make a declaration of official languages per se. The need was to repatriate the foundation of our laws so that they were no longer dependent on Britain. Declaration of an official language was included as part of this new Canadian foundation.

But as an answer to my question, was that a yes or a no?

"Oh great! There is no official language so I can just go there and speak Swahili and be just fine." That's nonsense. If you come to the US you'd better be able to speak some English.

Again, there is a difference between the official language and the predominant one... unless you think you'd be able to get by in Dublin speaking only Irish Gaelic.

Again, that's totally different. Ottawa has clearly been declared the capital, regardless of a common misconception. Can't really compare the two.

... except as an illustration of the fact that the majority opinion of Africans doesn't hold much bearing on the official status of things in the Americas.

 

[a_student]

But as an answer to my question, was that a yes or a no?

No. But that is completely different. In Canada, French was spoken just as commonly as English. There was no obvious choice.

Again, there is a difference between the official language and the predominant one.

Yet no one has been able to clarify what it means to be an official language. The definitions are too sketchy. Some people think "official" means etched in stone. Let's not forget that I was the first one in this thread to point out that in fact, English is not the official language.

... except as an illustration of the fact that the majority opinion of Africans doesn't hold much bearing on the official status of things in the Americas.

Well that's the question. What is the official status? You can say there is no official language because there hasn't been one declared. But you can also say there is one because everyone speaks English here, and by that fact alone, English is the official language. If someone said Toronto was the capital of Canada, you could say "No it's Ottawa." and be able to back that up. But in the case where there has been no declaration, the assumptions of the entire world will suffice for me. I don't think anyone would confuse German for the official language of America.

 

[a_student]

I love how these threads go in all these different directions. The original poster is probably thinking "What the heck are they talking about?"

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No. But that is completely different. In Canada, French was spoken just as commonly as English. There was no obvious choice.

Actually, in Canada, English is more common than French at a rate of almost 3 to 1, if you go by the number of anglophones vs. francophones.

Yet no one has been able to clarify what it means to be an official language. The definitions are too sketchy. Some people think "official" means etched in stone. Let's not forget that I was the first one in this thread to point out that in fact, English is not the official language.

So then why are you now arguing that it is?

 

[a_student]

Actually, in Canada, English is more common than French at a rate of almost 3 to 1, if you go by the number of anglophones vs. francophones.

Still doesn't compare to the number of non-English speakers in the US. Eventually, there will be enough Spanish speaking people in the US that it will be declared a bilingual country like Canada.

So then why are you now arguing that it is?

My argument is that on paper, there is no official language. However, I'm not blind and I'm not deaf. I am a realist, and realistically, despite whatever documents exist or cease to exist, there is an official language. It is not documented, just implemented.

 

[McBell]

Why would you ask that question? I definitely did not say mandatory equates to official. And yet you asked:


This leads me to believe either you didn't understand what I said or you are trying to turn it into something different.

Given the fact that you have officially, (I am now using your idea that 'implied' means 'official') declared that most common equates official I was wanting to know if mandatory also meant official.

Well, to you anyway.

Thank you, very much! :clap:clap:clap

For what?
You still are under the delusion that you have shown something.
You haven't.

There is no official language of the USA.
Your "unofficial official" nonsense is still nonsense.