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The Ultimate Challenge To Creationists
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
The funny thing is that Ken Hovind insisted on arguing with evolutionists that "evolution believes we come from rocks." I'm not sure what that is any more shocking than the idea that we come from dirt. Ken never really understood how he undermined his own argument by insisting on this.
Couldn't be easier. There exists no theory which even remotely comes close to explaining how living systems could either result from non-living or continue to increase in complexity, rather than simply die off immediately or remain in the simplest form of "life" possible. Also, even if there were only with God's guidance could any such process for which a theory might exist end up producing humans.
You'll have to forgive the divide between the above and whatever nonsense makes up most creationist beliefs. I am interested enough to read those I disagree with (even fundamentally) if, like Dembski or Behe, they at least offer something remotely related to something like logical argument. So I have no idea what most creationists would really offer in this case, other than that you have granted them the ability to assert basically anything they wish as they need not explain anything: the constraint that evolutionary theory not be mentioned frees an individual from acknowledging that it exists and therefore the necessity of addressing it at all.
In essence, the "ultimate challenge" is an offer to promote an explanation that need not contradict scientific findings so long as these findings are not within evolutionary biology. You've erased Darwin and everything since and then challenged creationists to contend with a pre-Darwinian reality.
I could have just said "you might want to add qualifier that just because one can't allude to evolution at all doesn't mean one can proceed as if it doesn't exist. Otherwise, you've just made things much, much easier for creationists." However, I'm bored and the above was more interesting.
You'll have to forgive the divide between the above and whatever nonsense makes up most creationist beliefs. I am interested enough to read those I disagree with (even fundamentally) if, like Dembski or Behe, they at least offer something remotely related to something like logical argument. So I have no idea what most creationists would really offer in this case, other than that you have granted them the ability to assert basically anything they wish as they need not explain anything: the constraint that evolutionary theory not be mentioned frees an individual from acknowledging that it exists and therefore the necessity of addressing it at all.
In essence, the "ultimate challenge" is an offer to promote an explanation that need not contradict scientific findings so long as these findings are not within evolutionary biology. You've erased Darwin and everything since and then challenged creationists to contend with a pre-Darwinian reality.
I could have just said "you might want to add qualifier that just because one can't allude to evolution at all doesn't mean one can proceed as if it doesn't exist. Otherwise, you've just made things much, much easier for creationists." However, I'm bored and the above was more interesting.
Ultimatum
Classical Liberal
This doesn't present any problem toward evolution and doesn't present a plausible cause for creationism.
All the evidence points toward all living beings coming from a common ancestor. How this first being came into existence? Some favour extra-terrestrial origins and some favouring abiogenesis, which I support. Also keep in mind that abiogenesis, as far as we know, didn't happen spontaneously- as creationists suggest. It's a gradual process.
Over time, life has become more complex. Using this logic we can assume that if we go back in time, life will become less complex. Let's go back in time and take the first ever single-celled organisms, whatever they may have been, and continue to go back in time with them. We would see that the further back we go with these organisms, the less biotic they become.
Because we don't know how this, perhaps, "not-quite-biotic-yet" organism and how it could have formed to be "not-quite-biotic-yet" is currently not known, it doesn't present a positive argument for "Goddidit"- which is what we are looking for in this thread.
Duh.
...blah blah blah. If you haven't read my posts then of course you may get the wrong impression. That said, I thought what I wrote made clear my view. Obviously not. What was ambiguous?
Bunyip
pro scapegoat
Very well put.
Dear Skwim, It all depends on YOUR definition of evolution. Is it changes within Their or His kinds, which is what scientists call changes in the allele frequency genetically in a population over time?
OR, is it Magical Evolution which changes Apes into Humans? God Bless you.
In Love,
Aman
Dear Readers, In order to actually believe the above one MUST reject God's Truth which shows that the first Human was made on the 3rd Day, Gen 2:4-7 long before (10 Billion years) bacteria was created and brought forth from the water on the 5th Day. Gen 1:21
Adam was First-made by the Hands of Jesus, which totally refutes the silly notion that Humans, made some 14 Billion years ago, (BEFORE the Stars) Gen 1:16 somehow Magically Evolved from the common ancestor of Apes, who evolved from the first Bacteria, created only some 3.7 Billion years ago.
Adam was made 10 Billion years BEFORE any other living creature. Can you read? Or do you freely choose to believe that God is a Liar? God Bless you.
In Love,
Aman
Ultimatum
Classical Liberal
Genesis 1: 26: "Then God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;..." This was on the 6th day. From your book. Chapter 1.
Unless of course, you make some chapters redundant- which questions what other chapters do you class as redundant.
Fault from the first chapter! It's laughable, really.
,
This is speculation. Genesis clearly states that God created everything. Sure, it says "Us" in 1:26, but that represents the Holy Spirit and God- the only mentioned during the creation process.
What refutes evolution? Your book? This is 2014.
Actually, it didn't magically happen. It naturally happened.
Biblical speculation. It's funny how the Bible lacks to give us such important infomation.
Yes.
When did I say I believed in God?
A redundant sentence.
Sha'irullah
رسول الآلهة
Wow, I am already sure you have no idea what evolution is or how it works already. Premonitions are funny things
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aman777
Dear Readers, In order to actually believe the above one MUST reject God's Truth which shows that the first Human was made on the 3rd Day, Gen 2:4-7 long before (10 Billion years) bacteria was created and brought forth from the water on the 5th Day. Gen 1:21
Dear Ultimatum, False, since you have confused the time when Adam and Eve were "created" in God's Image or born again Spiritually. It happened AFTER Cain killed Abel. Gen 5:1-2 Notice that Adam AND Eve were created in Christ at the SAME time.
Adam was made the 3rd Day. Gen 2:4-7
Eve was made the 6th Day. Gen 2:22
BOTH were "created" in God's Image at the SAME time. Gen 1:27 and Gen 5:1-2
Quote:
Adam was First-made by the Hands of Jesus
False since John 1:3 says, speaking of Jesus:
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
Can you tell us WHY you left Jesus out of the Creation?
Quote:
which totally refutes the silly notion that Humans
God knew exactly what would happen in 2014 and 2025, thousands of years ago. Do you actually THINK that mankind knows more than God? Sorry, but you are in need of study.
Quote:
somehow Magically Evolved from the common ancestor of Apes, who evolved from the first Bacteria, created only some 3.7 Billion years ago.
False, since what Science calls "natural" is life from the water, which God created and brought forth on the 5th Day. Gen 1:21 some 3.7 Billion years ago, in man's time. Have you ever read the Bible?
Quote:
Adam was made 10 Billion years BEFORE any other living creature.
It's there but UnAvailable to UnBelievers. Have you been born again Spiritually? Gen 2:4-7 shows that Adam was made on the THIRD Day AFTER the First Earth was made but BEFORE the plants, herbs, rain, and BEFORE the first Stars of our Cosmos put forth light on the FOURTH Day. Gen 1:16
Quote:
Can you read?
Then it's probably a comprehension problem.
Quote:
Or do you freely choose to believe that God is a Liar? God Bless you.
God tells us to "try" the Spirits. 1Jo 4:1 You just failed. God Bless you.
In Love,
Aman
Originally Posted by Aman777
Dear Readers, In order to actually believe the above one MUST reject God's Truth which shows that the first Human was made on the 3rd Day, Gen 2:4-7 long before (10 Billion years) bacteria was created and brought forth from the water on the 5th Day. Gen 1:21
Dear Ultimatum, False, since you have confused the time when Adam and Eve were "created" in God's Image or born again Spiritually. It happened AFTER Cain killed Abel. Gen 5:1-2 Notice that Adam AND Eve were created in Christ at the SAME time.
Adam was made the 3rd Day. Gen 2:4-7
Eve was made the 6th Day. Gen 2:22
BOTH were "created" in God's Image at the SAME time. Gen 1:27 and Gen 5:1-2
Quote:
Adam was First-made by the Hands of Jesus
False since John 1:3 says, speaking of Jesus:
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
Can you tell us WHY you left Jesus out of the Creation?
Quote:
which totally refutes the silly notion that Humans
God knew exactly what would happen in 2014 and 2025, thousands of years ago. Do you actually THINK that mankind knows more than God? Sorry, but you are in need of study.
Quote:
somehow Magically Evolved from the common ancestor of Apes, who evolved from the first Bacteria, created only some 3.7 Billion years ago.
False, since what Science calls "natural" is life from the water, which God created and brought forth on the 5th Day. Gen 1:21 some 3.7 Billion years ago, in man's time. Have you ever read the Bible?
Quote:
Adam was made 10 Billion years BEFORE any other living creature.
It's there but UnAvailable to UnBelievers. Have you been born again Spiritually? Gen 2:4-7 shows that Adam was made on the THIRD Day AFTER the First Earth was made but BEFORE the plants, herbs, rain, and BEFORE the first Stars of our Cosmos put forth light on the FOURTH Day. Gen 1:16
Quote:
Can you read?
Then it's probably a comprehension problem.
Quote:
Or do you freely choose to believe that God is a Liar? God Bless you.
God tells us to "try" the Spirits. 1Jo 4:1 You just failed. God Bless you.
In Love,
Aman
Wow, I am already sure you have no idea what evolution is or how it works already. Premonitions are funny things
Dear Philotech, Please present YOUR evidence of the evolution of Apes to Humans, unless you are afraid to tell us out of fear of being laughed at. God Bless you.
In Love,
Aman
Right. Summarize decades of scientific research by thousands of scientists with mountains of evidence into a small post here which you will reject without carefully understanding how science works and what constitutes proof.
My point is that anyone who believes Genesis is literally true should also believe in the literal nature of the prohibitions in Leviticus.
Actually there is a way for a creationist to answer evolution - God created everything to look like evolution is real as a test of faith. Those who fail the test are destined for the pit.
Sha'irullah
رسول الآلهة
I don't involve myself in these sort of things because Christians tend to lack character.
Notice the parts I put in bold print. This is proof of your lack of character and I am not going to argue with a person who uses the Bible as a basis for their immorality.
I do not argue with religious minded people because if religion warps your entire mind you are fundamentally no different than a mentally disturbed individual.
I am sorry that religion has done this to you.
And also by using only verifiable physical evidence.
So far so bad. Re. ↓
Make your case for creationism WITHOUT alluding to evolution or its principles.
But let's give it more time. Maybe somebody will surprise us.
Skwim
Veteran Member
I'll be happy if they can simply make a case for creationism without alluding to evolution or its principles. No reason to handicap so badly they can't get off the starting line.