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The Ultimate Challenge To Creationists

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And also by using only verifiable physical evidence.

That would require creationists to understand notions like "evidence" (and scientific methods such as the ways in which evidence is used to add to/build upon theoretical frameworks). Evolution is so fundamental to the sciences that fields rest upon it and its concepts have been used widely in applications via e.g., machine learning. It is not a theory in the sense that e.g., special relativity is, which can be expressed with some equations. It is vastly greater with a vastly greater amount of diverse sources of evidence. It isn't just a tool like SR but broader than any single discipline with researchers adding to it with backgrounds as diverse as theoretical physics to evolutionary psychology. In other words, it has been used for so many successful models & predictions across the sciences that to truly question it requires a grasp of the heart of the scientific methods and a deep understanding of a number of fields (mathematics, fields in biology, anthropology, statistics, etc.).

Hence, the vast majority of creationist arguments address strawman arguments by misrepresenting scientific methods, fields, and findings themselves, not just evolutionary theory.

Asking them to understand the sciences enough to understand the relevant physical evidence in such a way as to present anything that resembles in argument is, alas, too much for all but maybe a handful (whose arguments are sophisticated but no less wrong and no less dependent upon refutations that can't be used in theories or models yet have often been falsified).
 

McBell

Unbound



Make your case for creationism WITHOUT alluding to evolution or its principles.


seven-days-of-creation-i-sushobha-jenner.jpg


I can do it and I am not even a creationist!
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
" Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God." (Hebrews 3:4) Design is perceived by the things made. The evidence of design in living things is readily apparent, except to those who choose to ignore it. I believe it is as Romans 1:20,21 states: "For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they [those who deny God] are inexcusable. *For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God nor did they thank him, but they became empty-headed in their reasonings and their senseless hearts became darkened."
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
OR, is it Magical Evolution which changes Apes into Humans?
[/INDENT]

Humans are apes: Ape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...but by "apes" I assume you're referring to other modern primates.
No, we didn't evolve from any concurrently existing species, although we do share a common ancestor.

If you don't know or understand what evolution actually is or how it works, why would you think anyone would be interested in your uneducated opinion?
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Dear Readers, In order to actually believe the above one MUST reject God's Truth which shows that the first Human was made on the 3rd Day, Gen 2:4-7 long before (10 Billion years) bacteria was created and brought forth from the water on the 5th Day. Gen 1:21

Adam was First-made by the Hands of Jesus, which totally refutes the silly notion that Humans, made some 14 Billion years ago, (BEFORE the Stars) Gen 1:16 somehow Magically Evolved from the common ancestor of Apes, who evolved from the first Bacteria, created only some 3.7 Billion years ago.

Adam was made 10 Billion years BEFORE any other living creature. Can you read? Or do you freely choose to believe that God is a Liar? God Bless you.

In Love,
Aman

First of all, I want to know what point or purpose do people think it serves to quote a book to those who don't believe it to be a credible source or valid authority?

Secondly, assuming there is a force or entity that fits the descriptor "god", there is a different between god, and how mere mortals perceive and portray the concept.

Or do you freely choose to believe that God is a Liar?

No, just those who have placed words in his mouth (i.e. "holy men", their religions, and their texts.)
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
" Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God." (Hebrews 3:4) Design is perceived by the things made. The evidence of design in living things is readily apparent, except to those who choose to ignore it. I believe it is as Romans 1:20,21 states: "For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they [those who deny God] are inexcusable. *For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God nor did they thank him, but they became empty-headed in their reasonings and their senseless hearts became darkened."

I will commend you for being the first to actually try. The same cannot be said for your brethren. So, props to you.

This argument is basically, "things are pretty, and that shows me that God made it."

On the personal level, that's fine. You can find inspiration in anything you choose. And because it's left to a personal interpretation, and if you use that as your own personal motivation for faith - then so be it.

What that argument is not, however, is anything close to constituting evidence. It is not even an argument for creationism, really, as it is not making the claim in the name of science that it knows how the world was formed by the hands of god some 4,000-6,000 years ago. (And as long as it's not creationist science mumbo-jumbo, then I'm not vehemently opposed to it.)

One could replace the God concept in that passage from romans with anything, to fit any faith, and it would work just the same. Call your god Allah, and the statement still holds true. Call your god Shiva, or Odin, or Zeus, or Zoroaster and the statement still holds true. It will always support the faith of the framework in which it is written. But it will never constitute evidence.
 

Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
How about an explanation and a mechanism for micro but no macro.
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
I suppose we could all use some of their own scientific claims, since they don't seem to be participating...

I'll start.

Dear Evolutionists,
My mentors, Dr. Kent Hovind & Dr. Jason Lisle have discovered entire trees through multiple geologic layers. How do you explain that without the global flood?

Regards,
Creationist
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I will commend you for being the first to actually try. The same cannot be said for your brethren. So, props to you.

This argument is basically, "things are pretty, and that shows me that God made it."

On the personal level, that's fine. You can find inspiration in anything you choose. And because it's left to a personal interpretation, and if you use that as your own personal motivation for faith - then so be it.

What that argument is not, however, is anything close to constituting evidence. It is not even an argument for creationism, really, as it is not making the claim in the name of science that it knows how the world was formed by the hands of god some 4,000-6,000 years ago. (And as long as it's not creationist science mumbo-jumbo, then I'm not vehemently opposed to it.)

One could replace the God concept in that passage from romans with anything, to fit any faith, and it would work just the same. Call your god Allah, and the statement still holds true. Call your god Shiva, or Odin, or Zeus, or Zoroaster and the statement still holds true. It will always support the faith of the framework in which it is written. But it will never constitute evidence.

I agree any god could take credit, but the God of the Bible did, explaining the order he created. No false god can make a convincing case that he created the universe and life upon it. Jehovah does make it clear he is the Maker of heaven and earth, and the evidence supports his claim. The things made prove his wisdom, almighty power, and intelligence far exceeding any man's. (Isaiah 45:12)
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
That's easy.

God did it.
80681255346209

Okay, that's one. Anybody else?




Hold on, rusra02 has an entry.

" Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God." (Hebrews 3:4) Design is perceived by the things made. The evidence of design in living things is readily apparent, except to those who choose to ignore it. I believe it is as Romans 1:20,21 states: "For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they [those who deny God] are inexcusable. *For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God nor did they thank him, but they became empty-headed in their reasonings and their senseless hearts became darkened."
The "Bible told me so" argument, which in the case of Hebrews 3:4, makes god not only the creator of creationism, but cholera, malaria, the black death, Ebola, and birth defects as well. Okay, essentially another "god did it" argument, but this one backed up by scripture, which, if one thinks about, also allows for the creation of evolution by god. Hmm. . . . I think you've shot yourself in the foot here, but if this is your argument then so be it.

Then we have the teleological argument ("argument from design"), which is really an argument for god, not specifically creationism. Got to give this one an, Unacceptable. Sorry.
 
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jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
I agree any god could take credit, but the God of the Bible did, explaining the order he created. No false god can make a convincing case that he created the universe and life upon it. Jehovah does make it clear he is the Maker of heaven and earth, and the evidence supports his claim. The things made prove his wisdom, almighty power, and intelligence far exceeding any man's. (Isaiah 45:12)

Is the god of the bible the only god to have ever put his stamp of approval on his creation story??

Because...no.

And there is no evidence to support "His" claim. This thread only asks that you submit it.

The creation story that you, and the bible, refer to was taken, nearly in whole form, from the creation story of Ahura Mazda. It was pilfered from Babylonian Zoroasters during that period of Jewish History. Go read it. All of your evidence for creationism would, thus, support Ahura Mazda and diminish the role of Yahweh, who was his mythological clone.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member



Make your case for creationism WITHOUT alluding to evolution or its principles.


seven-days-of-creation-i-sushobha-jenner.jpg

The initial singularity prior to the big bang is said to have contained all the energy and spacetime of the universe. Two current theories to what was before the big bang is something like many bounces and the other many universes being created. Is this because cosmologist wish to ignore the fact that all that matter and energy had to come from somewhere so they point to evolving mechanisms, big bounce, or multiverse theory which really avoids the question all together? Where did all that matter, energy and spacetime come from? That it just evolved from a prior state pushes the question back like people do who believe in personal sky daddies.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
The initial singularity prior to the big bang is said to have contained all the energy and spacetime of the universe. Two current theories to what was before the big bang is something like many bounces and the other many universes being created. Is this because cosmologist wish to ignore the fact that all that matter and energy had to come from somewhere so they point to evolving mechanisms, big bounce, or multiverse theory which really avoids the question all together? Where did all that matter, energy and spacetime come from? That it just evolved from a prior state pushes the question back like people do who believe in personal sky daddies.
Interesting, although I don't see it as an argument for creationism. :shrug:

Moreover, in as much as the creationism v. evolution controversy is most commonly understood as relating to the origin of the variety of life on earth, I would expect that creationism here be limited to just that, the origin of the variety of life on earth, each instance of variety having been separately created by god, as opposed to the claim that this variety had evolved over time.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
To be fair, we should not limit this thread to the Bible story. There are many more including those at Creation Stories which includes the claim that Genesis really contains two different creation stories.

Or maybe the Rig Veda version including this:
7 He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it, Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
How is this an ultimate challenge? This is extraordinarily easy. The vast majority of creation mythos found in the world's religions predate the scientific revolution. Therefore, it's not exactly astounding that the vast majority of creation mythos does not contain references to what as, at the time, a non-existent idea.

I don't understand this thread.
 

Viker

Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
Dear Philotech, Please present YOUR evidence of the evolution of Apes to Humans, unless you are afraid to tell us out of fear of being laughed at. God Bless you.

In Love,
Aman
No need. Humans are still apart of the great ape family.
 

Aman777

Bible Believer
I don't involve myself in these sort of things because Christians tend to lack character.

Notice the parts I put in bold print. This is proof of your lack of character and I am not going to argue with a person who uses the Bible as a basis for their immorality.
I do not argue with religious minded people because if religion warps your entire mind you are fundamentally no different than a mentally disturbed individual.

I am sorry that religion has done this to you.

Dear Philotech, It's ok since I will be really happy in the end. I am terribly sorry that you won't, but it's your Free Choice. God Bless you and your small, minority, opinion.

In Love,
Aman
 
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