• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The ultimate question for theists

If you keep going back in a physical past of events, you would only keep going back without coming forward. Think about it. This is why there is no such thing as infinity. It is merely an abstract mathematical concept if you interpret the universe naturally.
0 + 0 is not equal to 1.

I don't see time like you do, I don't see it as a place like a plane that has points and to get to the other point you have to walk through it.

I instead, see Past is but a memory, the Future is but a projection, and the infinite is only found in the Present which is ever Present. So, when I write we always were it is because we always are and there is only Present.

For example: The difference between today and a hundred years ago on Earth is that a new generation is here at the moment and if we are aware of a hundred years ago it is only because of Historical record, Camera, Video. Without that we would not be aware of it although we would know there were people here a hundred years ago.
 
Last edited:

slave_of_god

New Member
I don't see time like you do, I do see it as a place like a plane that has points and to get to the other point you have to walk through it.

I instead, see Past is but a memory, the Future is but a projection, and the infinite is only found in the Present which is ever Present. So, when I write we always were it is because we always are and there is only Present.

For example: The difference between today and a hundred years ago on Earth is that a new generation is here at the moment and if we are aware of a hundred years ago it is only because of Historical record, Camera, Video. Without that we would not be aware of it although we would know there were people here a hundred years ago.

How is past just memory? I don't get it. Were your ancestors real ?
So according to you, historical record, camera and video of the past is the only criteria to establish that there was a past?
I've never heard this and is not making sense to me sorry.

I want you to keep going back to when we were allegedly fish. What about before that and before that and before that?

Are you of the world view that we are just re-arrangement of atoms?
 
I would like to briefly discuss what I believe to be a serious logical problem for theism, and I would be interested in reading responses. The problem lies with the answer to the question "Who created God?" The most common answers I hear from theists is that God is uncreated, or that he is somehow "the uncaused cause of the universe." But, if it is the case that God does not need a cause, then why does the universe need a cause? In other words, why not just save a step and state that the universe is uncaused, rather than arbitrarily declaring that an uncaused metaphysical entity caused the universe? Essentially, I am illustrating how the First Cause argument for God's existence fails. In this sense, atheists and theists hold a fairly similar position. Atheists must deal with the problem of what caused the universe to come into being. Theists, however, in attempting to resolve this conundrum, have only created more difficult problems, now needing to deal with the conundrum involving the cause of God. It is quite obvious that there is no end to this conundrum, we could continue to invent an infinite hierarchy of "supergods" that caused each other, but in the end, we would be left with an infinite regression of causes which is illogical. To me, the simplest answer to the question about our ultimate origin is that we don't know. But, if we are to state that any entity is uncaused, it seems to me to be most logical to avoid any suppositions, and just regard the universe itself as an uncaused entity.

Theism comes with so many serious logical problems it is difficult to know where to begin. Given the limitations of reason and what goes for 'logic' depending upon what rules of philosophy one uses, "It is quite obvious that there is no end to this conundrum," with a single exception, discovery. Discovery as science knows only too well, continually rewrites the path of logic, for discovery is just that, revealed knowledge outside the existing paradigm, that once tested and confirmed, paves a new path for logic to follow. And that principle may now be about to effect the entire religious [and atheist] milieu as we know it.

The first wholly new interpretation for two thousand years of the moral teachings of Christ has been published. Radically different from anything else we know of from theology or history, this new teaching is predicated upon the 'promise' of a precise, predefined, predictable and repeatable experience of transcendent omnipotence and called 'the first Resurrection' in the sense that the Resurrection of Jesus was intended to demonstrate Gods' willingness to reveal Himself and intervene directly into the natural world for those obedient to His Command, paving the way for access, by faith, to the power of divine Will and ultimate proof!

Thus 'faith' becomes an act of trust in action, the search along a defined path of strict self discipline, [a test of the human heart] to discover His 'Word' of a direct individual intervention into the natural world by omnipotent power that confirms divine will, law, command and covenant,

So like it or no, a new religious teaching, testable by faith, meeting all Enlightenment criteria of evidence based causation and definitive proof now exists. Nothing short of an intellectual, moral and religious revolution is getting under way. To test or not to test, that is the question? Is it logical or rational not to? More info at The Final Freedoms
 
I would like to briefly discuss what I believe to be a serious logical problem for theism, and I would be interested in reading responses. The problem lies with the answer to the question "Who created God?" The most common answers I hear from theists is that God is uncreated, or that he is somehow "the uncaused cause of the universe." But, if it is the case that God does not need a cause, then why does the universe need a cause? In other words, why not just save a step and state that the universe is uncaused, rather than arbitrarily declaring that an uncaused metaphysical entity caused the universe? Essentially, I am illustrating how the First Cause argument for God's existence fails. In this sense, atheists and theists hold a fairly similar position. Atheists must deal with the problem of what caused the universe to come into being. Theists, however, in attempting to resolve this conundrum, have only created more difficult problems, now needing to deal with the conundrum involving the cause of God. It is quite obvious that there is no end to this conundrum, we could continue to invent an infinite hierarchy of "supergods" that caused each other, but in the end, we would be left with an infinite regression of causes which is illogical. To me, the simplest answer to the question about our ultimate origin is that we don't know. But, if we are to state that any entity is uncaused, it seems to me to be most logical to avoid any suppositions, and just regard the universe itself as an uncaused entity.

Wow, that's old. 1975 called and they want their argument back.

A smart Theist would just point out that time and causality are properties of the physical universe and anything outside that (ie god) is immune to that logic. Fair enough.

Me, I say those smart theists lack imagination. Of all the things, if anything, that could have 'existed' in a 'time' before either of those words had any meaning, why conjure up what is effectively a glorified human?

If it were a singular intelligence I highly doubt it would care about one microscopic tidbit of the vast universe it might have created unknowingly or accidentally anyway, like when we leave a sandwich out and it goes moldy.

I have a pet unprovable hypothesis of my own, but I don't actually /believe/ it. It just provides a 'maybe this' that seems more in line with my logical way of thinking than do the various omnipotent Superman hypothesis that populate nearly all of our religions.

Maybe I should start a religion eh? I hear there is good money in it.
 
How is past just memory? I don't get it. Were your ancestors real ?
So according to you, historical record, camera and video of the past is the only criteria to establish that there was a past?
I've never heard this and is not making sense to me sorry.

I want you to keep going back to when we were allegedly fish. What about before that and before that and before that?

Are you of the world view that we are just re-arrangement of atoms?

Please do not get frustrated I'm not trying to incite you. Hmmmm...how do I explain the concept to you?

You mention ancestors and ask me if I believe in them. My response is I believe in the concept of ancestors, the idea of ancestors but I do not know them. I suspect my Great, great, great, great, great Grandfather (going further back as well) is nothing like me in thinking, appearance, manners. So, in a sense that man, whoever he was, is no more related to me than you. Sure he helped give birth to some ancestor, but outside my Grandfathers and Grandmothers all I have are legends of their parents. Who I am and who they (ancestors) were is someone totally different

In other words, their existence transcends their birth in a lineage and their family is whoever was with them in their time period. I chose to incarnate in this body from the Darma, they chose to incarnate in that body from the Darma and our relationship is only incidental in that we were born in the same family tree. This is not to write we will not have a relationship in Heaven, we will; we shared an experience of a body with similar dynamics but it will be a new relationship.

As for fish and neanderthals and primates, I don't believe in that. Scientists can say the Earth is Billions of years old to preserve a theory because anyone who looks at history has never seen fish spontaneously develop legs or Primates develop unfamiliar human characteristics nor have they ever seen one bird family go to the next. But I call this just preserving a theory because if they discarded that theory they would find the History of the Earth and Universe much younger.
 

Murad

Member
I would like to briefly discuss what I believe to be a serious logical problem for theism, and I would be interested in reading responses. The problem lies with the answer to the question "Who created God?" The most common answers I hear from theists is that God is uncreated, or that he is somehow "the uncaused cause of the universe." But, if it is the case that God does not need a cause, then why does the universe need a cause? In other words, why not just save a step and state that the universe is uncaused, rather than arbitrarily declaring that an uncaused metaphysical entity caused the universe? Essentially, I am illustrating how the First Cause argument for God's existence fails. In this sense, atheists and theists hold a fairly similar position. Atheists must deal with the problem of what caused the universe to come into being. Theists, however, in attempting to resolve this conundrum, have only created more difficult problems, now needing to deal with the conundrum involving the cause of God. It is quite obvious that there is no end to this conundrum, we could continue to invent an infinite hierarchy of "supergods" that caused each other, but in the end, we would be left with an infinite regression of causes which is illogical. To me, the simplest answer to the question about our ultimate origin is that we don't know. But, if we are to state that any entity is uncaused, it seems to me to be most logical to avoid any suppositions, and just regard the universe itself as an uncaused entity.
(34) Let them then produce a recital like unto it,- If (it be) they speak the truth!
(35) Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators?
(36). Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, they have no firm belief.
(37) Or are the Treasures of thy Lord with them, or are they the managers (of affairs)?
 
There is a reason to assume the universe has always existed. That is, it actually does exist.

On the other hand "God" is just a creation of human imagination. How can one assume God always existed when there is no evidence he actually exists at all ?
 
There is a reason to assume the universe has always existed. That is, it actually does exist.

On the other hand "God" is just a creation of human imagination. How can one assume God always existed when there is no evidence he actually exists at all ?

Hash these ideas out. I say the Universe has not always existed and has only existed, thankfully, for a short time.

And Scientists say the Universe has not always existed but has existed for a long time and, well, one day it will cease to exist depending on what day of the week it is some say it is expanding other say it is contracting others say it is expanding then contracting.

Oh, there is tons of evidence for God. There are ghosts, there are miracles, there are books written about the subject, there are books written about experiences on the subject. There is in fact a plethora of evidence out there. I'm not to believe human history is a history or liars myself. I'm also not one to believe that we are any better than people were back then i.e. where are our Renaissance Men, Enlightened Philosophers, Mathematicians, Music Creators, Artists....it seems the world has devolved from the past or is going through a period devolution.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Maybe I should start a religion eh? I hear there is good money in it.
Only if its irrational - the world is full of would be "Messiahs of Reason" who made not a brass farthing out of their perfectly sensible 'religions'. Spinoza, for example, made a living as a lens grinder and made almost nothing from his profoundly sensible 'religious' ideas. And there - by the grace of unreasonable but immensely popular credulity - goes many a saintly non-theistic 'believer'.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Hash these ideas out. I say the Universe has not always existed and has only existed, thankfully, for a short time.

And Scientists say the Universe has not always existed but has existed for a long time and, well, one day it will cease to exist depending on what day of the week it is some say it is expanding other say it is contracting others say it is expanding then contracting.

Oh, there is tons of evidence for God. There are ghosts, there are miracles, there are books written about the subject, there are books written about experiences on the subject. There is in fact a plethora of evidence out there. I'm not to believe human history is a history or liars myself. I'm also not one to believe that we are any better than people were back then i.e. where are our Renaissance Men, Enlightened Philosophers, Mathematicians, Music Creators, Artists....it seems the world has devolved from the past or is going through a period devolution.
Wow! There is a God after all! How else could anyone possibly explain you writing this at the exact time I was writing about "unreasonable but immensely popular credulity"?
 
I would like to briefly discuss what I believe to be a serious logical problem for theism, and I would be interested in reading responses. The problem lies with the answer to the question "Who created God?" The most common answers I hear from theists is that God is uncreated, or that he is somehow "the uncaused cause of the universe." But, if it is the case that God does not need a cause, then why does the universe need a cause? In other words, why not just save a step and state that the universe is uncaused, rather than arbitrarily declaring that an uncaused metaphysical entity caused the universe? Essentially, I am illustrating how the First Cause argument for God's existence fails. In this sense, atheists and theists hold a fairly similar position. Atheists must deal with the problem of what caused the universe to come into being. Theists, however, in attempting to resolve this conundrum, have only created more difficult problems, now needing to deal with the conundrum involving the cause of God. It is quite obvious that there is no end to this conundrum, we could continue to invent an infinite hierarchy of "supergods" that caused each other, but in the end, we would be left with an infinite regression of causes which is illogical. To me, the simplest answer to the question about our ultimate origin is that we don't know. But, if we are to state that any entity is uncaused, it seems to me to be most logical to avoid any suppositions, and just regard the universe itself as an uncaused entity.
When I came to a saving knowledge or you might say when I started my Christian journey that question "Who created God?" was a mystery to me along with "If you go to the end of creation or the universe, then whats on the other side?" After many, many moons, meaning almost 30 years of ignoring those questions because they seemed to violate my beliefs, like maybe my God is not the real God, or maybe on the other side of what is know is another existence created by another God ahahahahahah, it just left my brain wanted to hide. So I understand the emotional upheaval of this subject.
The question is only relevant when we need an answer to fit our time/space perception. If our mind were outside of time and space, then this would not even be a question, because we would understand that the beginning and the end are the same thing.
Perception is the mold we live in and interpret all causes, reactions and questions from. Amazing that I can build a world that I exist in purely on my perceptions and it will be a completely different world than the one you build and live in.
If there is a God and I believe there is then sometimes I think he gave the race created in his image and likeness to much of himself, but on the other hand. "ain't that what love is?"
 
Only if its irrational - the world is full of would be "Messiahs of Reason" who made not a brass farthing out of their perfectly sensible 'religions'. Spinoza, for example, made a living as a lens grinder and made almost nothing from his profoundly sensible 'religious' ideas. And there - by the grace of unreasonable but immensely popular credulity - goes many a saintly non-theistic 'believer'.

OK, so you wrote both of these, but I have no clue what you mean with the top one. So, Spinoza didn't make bank off his writings so he must be wrong? Is that what you are saying? The fact his writings live on beyond his time and he was respected by people in his time and across doesn't mean anything either because he did not make bank? Is that what you are saying?

All you are saying is, "if Spinoza was so smart why wasn't he rich." That's argument is called the poor man's excuse.

Wow! There is a God after all! How else could anyone possibly explain you writing this at the exact time I was writing about "unreasonable but immensely popular credulity"?

I'm not trying to bring you to Faith, I don't care either way. I'm going to say something not to insult you but the animals of the Earth are way better than us. You would know if you could talk to them. They too are our brothers and sisters from the Darma and they will be back in ideal form in Heaven. So, as much as you think you descended from that monkey I offer you should only be so lucky and if it was true you and others would be far more rational and reasonable.
 

slave_of_god

New Member
Please do not get frustrated I'm not trying to incite you. Hmmmm...how do I explain the concept to you?

You mention ancestors and ask me if I believe in them. My response is I believe in the concept of ancestors, the idea of ancestors but I do not know them. I suspect my Great, great, great, great, great Grandfather (going further back as well) is nothing like me in thinking, appearance, manners. So, in a sense that man, whoever he was, is no more related to me than you. Sure he helped give birth to some ancestor, but outside my Grandfathers and Grandmothers all I have are legends of their parents. Who I am and who they (ancestors) were is someone totally different

In other words, their existence transcends their birth in a lineage and their family is whoever was with them in their time period. I chose to incarnate in this body from the Darma, they chose to incarnate in that body from the Darma and our relationship is only incidental in that we were born in the same family tree. This is not to write we will not have a relationship in Heaven, we will; we shared an experience of a body with similar dynamics but it will be a new relationship.

As for fish and neanderthals and primates, I don't believe in that. Scientists can say the Earth is Billions of years old to preserve a theory because anyone who looks at history has never seen fish spontaneously develop legs or Primates develop unfamiliar human characteristics nor have they ever seen one bird family go to the next. But I call this just preserving a theory because if they discarded that theory they would find the History of the Earth and Universe much younger.

What is your evidence for this idea of incarnation and who informed you about it!
God?
 

siti

Well-Known Member
I have no clue what you mean
Of course you don't - and that's precisely why making a religion of rational thought ain't gonna work as a money-spinner.

I'm going to say something not to insult you...
...that's very considerate, thank you.

...but the animals of the Earth are way better than us...
Oh I am definitely not insulted by that...after all, animals lack the propensity for unreasonable but immensely popular credulity - aka religion.

...So, as much as you think you descended from that monkey...
She is a chimpanzee not a monkey and I am not descended from her - she's my six hundred and twenty-seven thousandth cousin two hundred and seven thousand times removed. She is also a distant relative of the Queen and several Popes (all of them actually - but some more obviously than others).

I offer you should only be so lucky and if it was true you and others would be far more rational and reasonable...
...than those who do not claim descent from our last common ancestor. Yes I do count my myself lucky for that. Thanks again. :)
 
Last edited:

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
I would like to briefly discuss what I believe to be a serious logical problem for theism, and I would be interested in reading responses. The problem lies with the answer to the question "Who created God?" The most common answers I hear from theists is that God is uncreated, or that he is somehow "the uncaused cause of the universe." But, if it is the case that God does not need a cause, then why does the universe need a cause? In other words, why not just save a step and state that the universe is uncaused, rather than arbitrarily declaring that an uncaused metaphysical entity caused the universe? Essentially, I am illustrating how the First Cause argument for God's existence fails. In this sense, atheists and theists hold a fairly similar position. Atheists must deal with the problem of what caused the universe to come into being. Theists, however, in attempting to resolve this conundrum, have only created more difficult problems, now needing to deal with the conundrum involving the cause of God. It is quite obvious that there is no end to this conundrum, we could continue to invent an infinite hierarchy of "supergods" that caused each other, but in the end, we would be left with an infinite regression of causes which is illogical. To me, the simplest answer to the question about our ultimate origin is that we don't know. But, if we are to state that any entity is uncaused, it seems to me to be most logical to avoid any suppositions, and just regard the universe itself as an uncaused entity.
Actually, while you think it a serious problem, it is no problem at all - except in the way you perceive things, and usually perception is where the crux lies always.

First, on an aside, if you communicate with your parents, and ask your father by phone, e.g., to go to your aprt and do something there for you that you cannot do for yourself since you are on a distant vacation, you will know that this was your father having done this when you come home and find the assistance rendered. Won't you! Similarly, we get specific, as in per request as asked for, assistance at times when we pray. In this we know that God exists. Aside end.

As to your statement that either the universe always existed being as likely as God having always existed there is this to think about:
since we exist and can think and act, this implies, is evidence for in a cause and effect reality that there is a cause having effected our existence. Once this is admitted, the cause may be seen to extend into a past that is infinite.

This brings us down to the nitty-gritty. We now agree that for us to exist we have a causality extending into the infinite past without any beginning. I believe firmly in a cause and effect; i.e. if I see a toothpick on the beach lying in the sand, I know immediately it is manufactured (it even carries the imprint of manufacturing) even when it is in this simplest of forms. The organisms that manufacture things on earth are humans, thus it is obviously of human origin with a purpose designed for human use. If then our biological forms also carry the 'tool-marks' of ID, then it must be so; it just isn't done by humans and for human use (so to say) but is by an entity exist before us. We believe this entity has given us revelations to show us that He is God and what His purpose is.

If you want to dismiss cause and effect - that is your problem, not mine. My logic does not permit it. Here a pertinent question might be: what does this gain you? Except the approval of your peers that toot the same, that is. My beliefs carries clear and demonstrable gains personally and for others. The dismissal of divine morality and of God's wrath for doing evil - is at the root of the evil we see in the world today, terrorism, the killing of so many innocent in other manners, etc.
 
Last edited:

siti

Well-Known Member
If you want to dismiss cause and effect ... The dismissal of divine morality and of God's wrath for doing evil - is at the root of the evil we see in the world today, terrorism, the killing of so many innocent
Wow! I mean wow! You can make this gambit a day after 22 kids are blown to bits in the name of "divine morality" in Manchester? Who is dismissing cause and effect now?
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
I would like to briefly discuss what I believe to be a serious logical problem for theism, and I would be interested in reading responses. The problem lies with the answer to the question "Who created God?" The most common answers I hear from theists is that God is uncreated, or that he is somehow "the uncaused cause of the universe." But, if it is the case that God does not need a cause, then why does the universe need a cause? In other words, why not just save a step and state that the universe is uncaused, rather than arbitrarily declaring that an uncaused metaphysical entity caused the universe? Essentially, I am illustrating how the First Cause argument for God's existence fails. In this sense, atheists and theists hold a fairly similar position. Atheists must deal with the problem of what caused the universe to come into being. Theists, however, in attempting to resolve this conundrum, have only created more difficult problems, now needing to deal with the conundrum involving the cause of God. It is quite obvious that there is no end to this conundrum, we could continue to invent an infinite hierarchy of "supergods" that caused each other, but in the end, we would be left with an infinite regression of causes which is illogical. To me, the simplest answer to the question about our ultimate origin is that we don't know. But, if we are to state that any entity is uncaused, it seems to me to be most logical to avoid any suppositions, and just regard the universe itself as an uncaused entity.

You can, of course, regard these things in any manner you wish. Nothing wrong with subjective opinions.

However, you can't accuse ALL theists of being 'stuck' regarding this. Here is a version of one of my favorit hymns.

Well, I have always loved the music (which isn't ours, but is a Scottish tune), but it's the lyrics that bug everybody who doesn't like us much, and delight me. ;)
 

YAW7911

Member
I would like to briefly discuss what I believe to be a serious logical problem for theism, and I would be interested in reading responses. The problem lies with the answer to the question "Who created God?" The most common answers I hear from theists is that God is uncreated, or that he is somehow "the uncaused cause of the universe." But, if it is the case that God does not need a cause, then why does the universe need a cause? In other words, why not just save a step and state that the universe is uncaused, rather than arbitrarily declaring that an uncaused metaphysical entity caused the universe? Essentially, I am illustrating how the First Cause argument for God's existence fails. In this sense, atheists and theists hold a fairly similar position. Atheists must deal with the problem of what caused the universe to come into being. Theists, however, in attempting to resolve this conundrum, have only created more difficult problems, now needing to deal with the conundrum involving the cause of God. It is quite obvious that there is no end to this conundrum, we could continue to invent an infinite hierarchy of "supergods" that caused each other, but in the end, we would be left with an infinite regression of causes which is illogical. To me, the simplest answer to the question about our ultimate origin is that we don't know. But, if we are to state that any entity is uncaused, it seems to me to be most logical to avoid any suppositions, and just regard the universe itself as an uncaused entity.
I think God itself is born out of Chaos and I believe in Deism and the reason for creation was due to lack of similar beings when God is still sentient. I also believe the world is more information than physics. On the other hand I have no interest in Monotheism but find the primordial deities of Paganism to be rather interesting, which all died as of mortal age.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Wow! I mean wow! You can make this gambit a day after 22 kids are blown to bits in the name of "divine morality" in Manchester? Who is dismissing cause and effect now?

I am not. I am directly relating the evil in war, in terrorism, in abortions unnecessary, in drug use that cause harm and death, in police brutality, relating it to the cause of disobeying God's morality. So, what you speaking of here, is obscure to me. You may clarify if you like.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
I would like to briefly discuss what I believe to be a serious logical problem for theism, and I would be interested in reading responses. The problem lies with the answer to the question "Who created God?" The most common answers I hear from theists is that God is uncreated, or that he is somehow "the uncaused cause of the universe." But, if it is the case that God does not need a cause, then why does the universe need a cause?
So you believe that the universe has always existed?

It isn't incoherent to say that the universe is necessary, but there's no more reason to believe that than there is in God.

In other words, why not just save a step and state that the universe is uncaused, rather than arbitrarily declaring that an uncaused metaphysical entity caused the universe?
Does the universe explain itself? I don't think it does. If everything else within the universe is contingent then its reasonable to assume the universe itself is also contingent. Therefore my own opinion is on the belief in something outside of the universe as its cause. It is just as arbitrary based on no more compelling of an argument to simply declare the universe as necessary simply because you don't like the implications of the alternative.

In this sense, atheists and theists hold a fairly similar position. Atheists must deal with the problem of what caused the universe to come into being. Theists, however, in attempting to resolve this conundrum, have only created more difficult problems, now needing to deal with the conundrum involving the cause of God.
No, because the theist claim isn't that everything has a cause, but that you can't coherently have an infinite regress of contingent things. God by definition is non-contingent, in other words, we believe that God is His own explanation. You can deny this and claim it instead for the universe, which is coherent, but built on assumptions as faith based as theism.

It is quite obvious that there is no end to this conundrum, we could continue to invent an infinite hierarchy of "supergods" that caused each other, but in the end, we would be left with an infinite regression of causes which is illogical.
Except that God is His own cause, therefore there is no infinite regress. It's the materialists who have to deal with the prospect of an infinite regress.
 
Last edited:
Top