The ultimate question for theists

[Grandliseur]

The bible is full of verses advocating killing of non believers. Also note that the bible mentions killing significantly more than love.

While there is a lot of killing going on, wars and whatnot, this does not mean that such is approved of. It is a simple fact of life. There is no area of earth that is not filled with historical killings, wars, be it China, Japan, Europe, etc.

If you are familiar with the Bible, which is the question here which is in doubt, you would know that Christians clearly are told that they will be killed by the sword if they go killing by it. The 1st century Christians did not join any armies to fight for anyone.

Surely, Christians who follow scripture would never do what was done in the UK last week. Trying to impugn otherwise is a lie. The laws, edicts, of Christian are as follows:
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these : fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties, 21 envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 meekness, self-control; against such there is no law. 24 And they that are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts thereof. 25 If we live by the Spirit, by the Spirit let us also walk.

 

[ChristineM]

While there is a lot of killing going on, wars and whatnot, this does not mean that such is approved of. It is a simple fact of life. There is no area of earth that is not filled with historical killings, wars, be it China, Japan, Europe, etc.

If you are familiar with the Bible, which is the question here which is in doubt, you would know that Christians clearly are told that they will be killed by the sword if they go killing by it. The 1st century Christians did not join any armies to fight for anyone.

Surely, Christians who follow scripture would never do what was done in the UK last week. Trying to impugn otherwise is a lie. The laws, edicts, of Christian are as follows:
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these : fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties, 21 envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 meekness, self-control; against such there is no law. 24 And they that are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts thereof. 25 If we live by the Spirit, by the Spirit let us also walk.

Depends on the gullibility of the individual being indoctrinated.

Ahh ad hominem based on ignorance, didn't take long did it? Fyi, i dumped religion when i realised it was the cause of the congregation of the church i attended mocking disability. Since then Christians have (indirectly) tried to kill me and (directly) tried to kill my children. In an effort to discover why i have studied 3 different bibles cover to cover, not the cherry picking uswd in religious teaching but the whole lot. Can you say the same?

Remember that until a few hundred years ago Christians were rampaging around the middle east lopping off heads on instruction from the highest authority in Christianity. The same sort of massacre is still happening in Africa now.

My husband was born in Manchester, me not far away, we spent our first few years of marriage living their so I'm pretty sure the recent atrocity in the UK (like other religion based atrocities) are far more poignient to me than you would credit. I still don't know if i knew anyone effected..

But you need to analyse where the root cause lies.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

This "problem" is no such thing:

1. If an atheist raises the issue, they demonstrate their a priori belief that ALL THINGS including a god MUST have a CREATOR. "Oops!"

2. If an atheist insists the universe (or what made this universe from outside the universe) was not created, and was therefore eternal, then theists can say the same thing about God, that God was always here, uncreated.

And now we need not ever hear this question again.

Sure it's a problem, and you've got it reversed. It's not the skeptic making a special pleading argument against the existence of gods as you have described. It's the theist making a special pleading argument that there are strict rules of creation and causation for universes from which gods are exempted. The OP is telling you that you can't have it both ways. If everything needs a creator, so do a god. If things can exist uncreated, gods are not needed to explain existence.

 

[syo]

then why does the universe need a cause

because god is immortal but the universe will be destroyed sometime in the future

 

[Grandliseur]

Depends on the gullibility of the individual being indoctrinated.

Ahh ad hominem based on ignorance, didn't take long did it? Fyi, i dumped religion when i realised it was the cause of the congregation of the church i attended mocking disability. Since then Christians have (indirectly) tried to kill me and (directly) tried to kill my children. In an effort to discover why i have studied 3 different bibles cover to cover, not the cherry picking uswd in religious teaching but the whole lot. Can you say the same?

Remember that until a few hundred years ago Christians were rampaging around the middle east lopping off heads on instruction from the highest authority in Christianity. The same sort of massacre is still happening in Africa now.

My husband was born in Manchester, me not far away, we spent our first few years of marriage living their so I'm pretty sure the recent atrocity in the UK (like other religion based atrocities) are far more poignient to me than you would credit. I still don't know if i knew anyone effected..

But you need to analyse where the root cause lies.

I do not belong to any church; I do belong to Christ as long as I stay loyal. Churches have committed all kinds of atrocities; so, indoctrination, as you speak of, is obviously important in what people do in regard to persecution, suffering, terrorism, empathy with the disabled, empathy with orphans and widows. I have also suffered because of my religious stance by reason of church individuals not accepting my right to believe as I do. This has not caused me to reject Christ or his teachings. Much of the genocide in various parts of the world was due to the teaching of evolution, the superior and inferior race concept.

What churches do and their flock - is for the final judgment to handle. In scripture, Christians are not taught to do evil. They are taught lofty good things.

 

[ChristineM]

I do not belong to any church; I do belong to Christ as long as I stay loyal. Churches have committed all kinds of atrocities; so, indoctrination, as you speak of, is obviously important in what people do in regard to persecution, suffering, terrorism, empathy with the disabled, empathy with orphans and widows. I have also suffered because of my religious stance by reason of church individuals not accepting my right to believe as I do. This has not caused me to reject Christ or his teachings. Much of the genocide in various parts of the world was due to the teaching of evolution, the superior and inferior race concept.

What churches do and their flock - is for the final judgment to handle. In scripture, Christians are not taught to do evil. They are taught lofty good things.

As far as i am aware the teaching of evolution never killed anyone, certainly there are no figures to indicate such, whereas throughout recorded history more than 800 million people have been prematurely killed as a result of religious wars

 

[Grandliseur]

As far as i am aware the teaching of evolution never killed anyone, certainly there are no figures to indicate such, whereas throughout recorded history more than 800 million people have been prematurely killed as a result of religious wars

Well, the Germans and the British killed indiscriminately the natives because they were according to the then prevalent beliefs, not quite human. You should research it. Stalin and perhaps Lenin, in their atheistic pursuits likewise killed millions and in this were bent on the destruction of the Christian faith, in their desire to control all.

You make your own studies. I study and then I forget again. Evolution is one of the reasons, the 3rd Reich thought of others as untermensch that could be treated as less than human, even exterminated as undesirable. The idea of Untermensch is utterly evolutionary. The Christian teaching is that all descend from Noah, and Adam & Eve. There is no superiority in scripture from one to the other race, tribe, etc.

Acts 17:26-28 26 And he made out of one [man] every nation of men, to dwell upon the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of the dwelling of [men], 27 for them to seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. 28 For by him we have life and move and exist, even as certain ones of the poets among YOU have said, ‘For we are also his progeny.’

 

[ChristineM]

Well, the Germans and the British killed indiscriminately the natives because they were according to the then prevalent beliefs, not quite human. You should research it. Stalin and perhaps Lenin, in their atheistic pursuits likewise killed millions and in this were bent on the destruction of the Christian faith, in their desire to control all.

You make your own studies. I study and then I forget again. Evolution is one of the reasons, the 3rd Reich thought of others as untermensch that could be treated as less than human, even exterminated as undesirable. The idea of Untermensch is utterly evolutionary. The Christian teaching is that all descend from Noah, and Adam & Eve. There is no superiority in scripture from one to the other race, tribe, etc.

Acts 17:26-28 26 And he made out of one [man] every nation of men, to dwell upon the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of the dwelling of [men], 27 for them to seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. 28 For by him we have life and move and exist, even as certain ones of the poets among YOU have said, ‘For we are also his progeny.’

That is racism, notice the difference in spelling... Racism ... Evolution.

Stalin was christian, and actually reintroduced the christian faith after the revolution. You also confuse nationalism with atheism and what have either to do with evolution?

Nonsense, once again racism. Untermensch was first coined as a concept by an American. Later picked up by Nazis to label their racism. Also note Hitler too was christian, a catholic with Vatican backing. He was in charge of a willing, mostly Protestant country.

Yes well, dna, geography, engineering, logistics and meteorology all show the Noah story to be false. However genetics show ymrca adam and mt eve actually lived... About 100,000 years apart though, so getting together to create the "Jewish" people (not christian) would be rather a mess.

Please don't provide biblical verses as evidence, or I'll start quoting Terry Pratchett. At least i know the author actually lived.

There is a rumour going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.

 

[Murad]

The position is not that the universe was "created by itself" but rather that it is uncreated.

You just play with words.
As Newtons first low.
Every object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless compelled to change its state by the action of an external force.
Our mind built and science approve the causality snd nothing present by chance.

 

[siti]

Just because someone in some corner of the world has religious views that demand that they kill as was done in Manchester, in no way makes "extreme religious views" undesirable.

It doesn't? For the record, I did not make the generalization you set up as a straw man. There are obviously very many people with what might be regarded as "extreme religious views" that would never deliberately cause physical harm to anyone. But that was not the point. The point is that some (and it seems more than few) might use "divine morality" as a justification for extreme violence - and that this makes the notion of "divine morality" not only a dangerous idea but untenable as an argument for the existence of a benevolent deity.

I simply argued that "divine morality" is a very weak argument for theism

you have entered areas that I find I do not need to defend, nor answer.

This is the last post to you on this subject.

I take that means you are abandoning the "divine morality" argument for God's existence.

 

[BilliardsBall]

But why make the supposition that an eternal God exists? Why not save a step and regard the universe as uncaused? Certainly if all things require a cause, then God cannot exist, because God, by definition is causeless. So, in order for God to exist, we must accept that the law of causality does not always apply. But, if it doesn't, then there is no need for a God to cause the universe, since the cosmological argument is based upon the premise that the law of causality is true.

That is a thoughtful answer.

One would be well served, to answer your question, to "make the supposition that an eternal God exists" since it is a universal supposition.

As for answering "Why not save a step and regard the universe as uncaused?" it certainly beggars, for example, the Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy, to say "all matter/energy existed eternally, despite our law that it cannot be created or destroyed."

 

[BilliardsBall]

Sure it's a problem, and you've got it reversed. It's not the skeptic making a special pleading argument against the existence of gods as you have described. It's the theist making a special pleading argument that there are strict rules of creation and causation for universes from which gods are exempted. The OP is telling you that you can't have it both ways. If everything needs a creator, so do a god. If things can exist uncreated, gods are not needed to explain existence.

If everything that exists has a creator, you have an endless chain of gods, as you know.

If things can exist uncreated, the Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy contradicts this notion.

God is in a special category of uncreation, is my point.