The universe and the laws

[rational experiences]

If a human said an opening at a point dot position was created...
It's not the dot...creations history themed.

Then everything as the body mass not the dot point changed as it had existed.

The human teaching said it was eternal yet the dot point wasn't the eternal.

It was forced change upon the body as changes beginning.

So the human Theist says then it became eternal in hell position. As it moved into bursting.

Now just hell. Not using any word the eternal word now.

So hell froze he taught...became fixed God types. In hell only.

It froze as voiding of energy mass burning opened into infinite empty space.

The fixed infinite position caused freezing by travelling so far away from hells mass burning until it stopped so it froze.

The journey.

Hence frozen mass burning inside itself fixed burst itself.

Scientific taught human themes. Just stories not practice.

To practice science. First you are the human. You take earths dusts convert them to build machines. Then you take earths mass and convert it. Like the frozen bursting bodies.

Constantly.

So you forced human science AI designed by science machine conditions communicators which now possess your mind with fake stories.

As no human is that history.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Well, I suppose if we're going back to a time when the universe was nothing but an empty void - no motion, no gravity, no planets or stars, there doesn't appear there would be any occasion for such laws to apply.

And then, it happened - 'Ex-nihilo'. 'Existence has a relation with non-existence', that is what RigVeda said around 3,000 years ago. For rules about that, wait for a few hundred years, don't jump to ridiculous assumptions.

"sato bandhumasati niravindan hṛidi pratīṣyākavayo manīṣā ll"
Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent.
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXIX. Creation.

 

[Stevicus]

Which goes back to the OP..

"Something(big bang or?) happened before quantum physics or any law(s) existed. To me that says things can happen without laws etc.
How would that be possible?"

Yeah, although I don't think anyone really knows. I mean, we're talking about the universe here. The universe is big, and we're just puny little earthlings.

I suppose anything is possible, but I just sort of leave it at that.

 

[rational experiences]

Ordered black hole vomit, thank you very much.

from Chaos come Order.

A human vomits.

Evil humans using haarp satellite computer mind control studies pulsing heavens attack machines machines machines.

Force humans to vomit. Think it funny as it not their life vomitting.

True story human experimenting on human knowing why they made the comment vomit involving new technology reactions theoried.

 

[We Never Know]

Yeah, although I don't think anyone really knows. I mean, we're talking about the universe here. The universe is big, and we're just puny little earthlings.

I suppose anything is possible, but I just sort of leave it at that.

Yep I agree no one knows.

We could be from a blackhole, from another universe, from a god, just something spontaneous, or?

To argue against any of that implies knowing which isn't possible at this time.

 

[rational experiences]

If a human said an opening at a point dot position was created...
It's not the dot...creations history themed.

Then everything as the body mass not the dot point changed as it had existed.

The human teaching said it was eternal yet the dot point wasn't the eternal.

It was forced change upon the body as changes beginning.

So the human Theist says then it became eternal in hell position. As it moved into bursting.

Now just hell. Not using any word the eternal word now.

So hell froze he taught...became fixed God types. In hell only.

It froze as voiding of energy mass burning opened into infinite empty space.

The fixed infinite position caused freezing by travelling so far away from hells mass burning until it stopped so it froze.

The journey.

Hence frozen mass burning inside itself fixed burst itself.

Scientific taught human themes. Just stories not practice.

To practice science. First you are the human. You take earths dusts convert them to build machines. Then you take earths mass and convert it. Like the frozen bursting bodies.

Constantly.

So you forced human science AI designed by science machine conditions communicators which now possess your mind with fake stories.

As no human is that history.

Thanks for the creative remark.

It's actually one hundred per cent correct as you said so brother. Told me.

Science is brother versus brother. Brother who knows father versus machine inventor liar brother just a human always.

Yet he theories he's safe as hes everywhere else except being human.

Who places his dot point in machine sciences to his own forced position a dot forced reacted moment in mass. So I can force cold mass energy into a converted reaction he says knowing man's science is machine only.

Claiming machines science of man is a cosmic thesis.

Which he ignored as self relative as he's a liar.

 

[RestlessSoul]

The singularity from which our universe emerged, is the point at which space time co-ordinates converge, working backwards using Einstein’s equations (which haven’t failed us yet). At the Planck Unit of time (10^-44 seconds) General Relativity, being a classical theory, no longer applies; we’re into the world of quantum theory, which is yet to be reconciled with GR or the Newtonian physics of the macroscopic reality in which the drama of our lives unfolds. So it makes no sense to talk about space and time beyond the boundaries our macroscopic reality - the reality governed by the laws of classical physics. Space and time may themselves be emergent properties of a deeper fundamental reality - the ‘something deeply hidden’, of Einstein’s phrase.

But consider this; the surface of a globe, like the one we are standing on, is the two dimensional boundary of a three dimensional object. The two dimensional surface is itself unbounded, in that we can start of travelling over it and never fall off the edge - we just keep going until we pass the place at which we started, from which we may continue on unhindered. But just as the unboundaried two dimensional surface is the boundary of the three dimensional globe, so it may be that our four dimensional (3 of space, one of time) universe, is itself the boundary of a higher dimensional reality; a reality which the human mind with it’s marvellous but not unlimited imagination, may be incapable of grasping. Or maybe not; going beyond limits is something the human mind is seemingly drawn to.

 

[exchemist]

Figured I would just start a thread to get more feedback.

Something(big bang or?) happened before quantum physics or any law(s) existed. To me that says things can happen without laws etc.
How would that be possible?

Well, if there are no laws, there is no law of cause and effect, is there?

 

[ChristineM]

Figured I would just start a thread to get more feedback.

Something(big bang or?) happened before quantum physics or any law(s) existed. To me that says things can happen without laws etc.
How would that be possible?

The fundinental laws of our universe did not begin to coalesce intil 10e-43 of s second after the bb and did not completely resolve until some nano time after that.

To say something was so before the bb just does not make sense with our current level of knowledge. All anyone can to is hypothesis based on current observations and mathematics.

As to how is it possible. It's anyones guess. Cosmologists theorise but do not know.
I personally like Dr Mersini-Houghtons hypothesis that our universe is the result of A collision of other universes

 

[ChristineM]

But if the laws break down the further we go back...... In my opinion they didn't exist... or at least they didn't apply.

Correct, if they didn't exist then they couldn't apply.

Other unknown, unknowable laws may have applied or maybe not

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Something(big bang or?) happened before quantum physics or any law(s) existed.

We have no knowledge nor can we have any knowledge of something happening before quantum physics. The classical big bang picture in simplified form does indeed have universe that "begins" along with time and space. Nor can we neglect classical physics (not GR, anyway) at this region because GR is essential for cosmic scale phenomena and we're talking about the universe.
But when we get to a universe near the time of the big bang, we can no longer neglect quantum effects (all physical systems are quantum systems, but most of the time many can be modeled to high approximation using classical physics).

To me that says things can happen without laws etc.
How would that be possible?

There are no known laws that hold universally. All physical laws hold only granted certain conditions are satisfied. Perhaps the most general condition that is most relevant here is that physical laws hold for isolated systems. Since no system is ever isolated, no laws ever actually hold beyond approximations (that is, the closer one gets to approximately satisfying the contingent but necessary conditions for the law to hold, the better a model one has of the physical processes one seeks to apply the law to).
It is not often appreciated that laws in modern physics are not generally thought to be nor used nor assumed to be something that has to hold in any situation or otherwise universal. Most follow from the symmetries of a system or are made true by definition (an example of both kinds would be the fundamental, extremely important law in quantum physics often called the law of "the conservation of probability", which would hold without a universe in some sense, it just wouldn't apply to anything physical).
We often state laws that are useful even knowing that we intend to violate them working with the theories intended to describe systems for which the laws are supposed to hold. In HEP and cosmology, for example, this often falls under the ubiquitous "symmetry breaking" and/or phase transitions and is essential to the effective field theory program (of which the standard model is considered to be an example).
So, things happen in violations of laws all the time because of the nature of physical laws. The real miracle is that any useful (let alone essential to our understanding of reality and to countless applications) physical theory governed by laws can be formulated at all.

 

[starguy1942]

Figured I would just start a thread to get more feedback.

Something(big bang or?) happened before quantum physics or any law(s) existed. To me that says things can happen without laws etc.
How would that be possible?

Why does it say to you that things happen without laws? Why do you leap to such an unfounded premise and then try to analyze and build on it as if there were an iota of truth in it?

 

[starguy1942]

We have no knowledge nor can we have any knowledge of something happening before quantum physics. The classical big bang picture in simplified form does indeed have universe that "begins" along with time and space. Nor can we neglect classical physics (not GR, anyway) at this region because GR is essential for cosmic scale phenomena and we're talking about the universe.
But when we get to a universe near the time of the big bang, we can no longer neglect quantum effects (all physical systems are quantum systems, but most of the time many can be modeled to high approximation using classical physics).


There are no known laws that hold universally. All physical laws hold only granted certain conditions are satisfied. Perhaps the most general condition that is most relevant here is that physical laws hold for isolated systems. Since no system is ever isolated, no laws ever actually hold beyond approximations (that is, the closer one gets to approximately satisfying the contingent but necessary conditions for the law to hold, the better a model one has of the physical processes one seeks to apply the law to).
It is not often appreciated that laws in modern physics are not generally thought to be nor used nor assumed to be something that has to hold in any situation or otherwise universal. Most follow from the symmetries of a system or are made true by definition (an example of both kinds would be the fundamental, extremely important law in quantum physics often called the law of "the conservation of probability", which would hold without a universe in some sense, it just wouldn't apply to anything physical).
We often state laws that are useful even knowing that we intend to violate them working with the theories intended to describe systems for which the laws are supposed to hold. In HEP and cosmology, for example, this often falls under the ubiquitous "symmetry breaking" and/or phase transitions and is essential to the effective field theory program (of which the standard model is considered to be an example).
So, things happen in violations of laws all the time because of the nature of physical laws. The real miracle is that any useful (let alone essential to our understanding of reality and to countless applications) physical theory governed by laws can be formulated at all.

You have a peculiar definition of "law". If a process varies according to conditions, it is still following the laws that obtain. You obviously know more about physics than I can possibly ever know, but just because and event varies from our predictions, doesn't mean that laws are not universal.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Figured I would just start a thread to get more feedback.

Something(big bang or?) happened before quantum physics or any law(s) existed. To me that says things can happen without laws etc.
How would that be possible?

In my thinking the best clue is that space time is curved. This is supported by direct observations, and it is more certain than quantum theories or theories about particles. That is a law which breaks many assumptions: curved space-time.

What is space-time? If time and space are connected, and space has a beginning then what we think of as time has a beginning. How can that be? Yet it is. If time has a beginning along with space, then there should not be anything before space. Maybe there other spaces or alternate spaces. There may not be a cause as we think of causes but something else, which is why we bend over backwards to think of how anything exists.

Why should anything exist as opposed to nothing? Why isn't there just nothing? Explain that and you are probably on the road to guessing about how things exist, but you are guessing.

 

[PureX]

What makes you think that something happened before there were laws (i.e. before there were behaviors of stuff that exists)?

Because they happened. For any kind of order (laws) to have happened, that possibility had to be available prior to it happening. And that means some degree of impossibility had to also be present.

 

[starguy1942]

Who says space-time is curved? It might be. So what. "If" they are connected? Einstein says that they are different aspects of the same thing. Unimaginable to me, but ....? You offer your own philosophical speculations which are colorful and pleasant to read, but
they don't carry any weight. You ask "why". "Why" is not the purview of science, so it is unproductive to conflate science with your musings in that area.

 

[wellwisher]

Perhaps other "laws"/principles applied before the ones we currently know about? I don't think we have any way to know what existed before/outside the Big Bang.

We live in space-time where space and time are connected. For example, photons of light have wavelength and frequency which are connected; measures of space and time. Say space and time were not connected, but could exist independently of each other. One would not have energy, since you would have wavelength without frequency and frequency without wavelength. This is not energy but only the components of energy. One could also move in space without the constraint of time, and/or move in time without the constraint of space.

A realm where space and time are not connected allow the classic attributes of God. If you could move in space without the constraint of time you could go faster than the speed of light and be everywhere in the universe at the same time; omnipresence. If you could move in time without the constraint of space you could know the history of the entire universe, simultaneously; omniscience. Space-time set limits on on this material universe. When space and time are not connected, there are no such limits.

The concepts of probability and chance appear to be where space-time intersects the realm of space not connected to time. There is a wild card where the laws of physics see exceptions, in terms of the rational expectations of space-time and its natural laws.

One interesting example of space not connected to time is the human imagination. Our imagination is not limited to space-time. I can image flying to the sun with wings of wax in less than a second. When I get there I can borrow to the core of the sun to get a nice nuclear tan. This imaginary scenario is not possible in space-time, since it would exceed the limits of energy and matter.

The imagination can generate such scenarios that go beyond the limits of space-time and then into the realm where space and time are not connected. The biology of the brain is limited to space-time but the structuring of information, is not limited the same way. The realm where space and time are not connected would be one that is more like information without material bounds; universal consciousness.

 

[Stevicus]

Yep I agree no one knows.

We could be from a blackhole, from another universe, from a god, just something spontaneous, or?

To argue against any of that implies knowing which isn't possible at this time.

That's why I tend to reject religion. No one really knows how it happened or why. Some people think that it was all done because God has some kind of divine plan or special purpose for us all.

Though our existence could be some kind of celestial equivalent of a garbage dump or a sewage system. Maybe God is just trying to get rid of us.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Figured I would just start a thread to get more feedback.

Something(big bang or?) happened before quantum physics or any law(s) existed. To me that says things can happen without laws etc.
How would that be possible?

Laws that are dependent on space-time existing, didn't exist when the universe didn't exist.
Quantum physics isn't dependent on space and time like relativity is though.
At the very least, it's in a very grey area.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Right. Who really knows.

Does it really bother you that you (and us all) might never know? And if so, what does this say about yourself? Life not enough for you?