The Untold Story of the Samaritans, Jews, & Jesus

[Kurt31416]

Doesn't matter. Christians claim to be "more Jewish" than the Jews, too. What's your point?

Other than the fact that the genetics proves it? Well, for starters, because their Torah is written in older script, and no doubt closer to the original.

 

[Kurt31416]

Judaism evolves....it always has and always will

get over it....

Yep, and the current Masoretic/Old Testament version has evolved a lot from the Dead Sea Scrolls, LXX and the Samaritan Torah.

Granted Jerome used the Samaritan Torah to correct the Masoretic version occasionally when he wrote the Christian Bible.

 

[sojourner]

Other than the fact that the genetics proves it? Well, for starters, because their Torah is written in older script, and no doubt closer to the original.

Genetics is a red herring. Unless you're holding to the outmoded idea that genetics is the primary factor in determining who is or is not upholding God's Law.

 

[Kurt31416]

The fact that the Genetics proves they are closer to the Hebrews of Moses, and quoting the Jews agreeing is a red herring?

In three out of the four surviving Samaritan groups 100% of the men's ancestors, for 35 generations, obeyed the Written Law about marriage outside the religion, without exception. But they didn''t keep that Written Law?

But that's just the icing on the cake. The oldest Samaritan Written Law is written in script centuries older than any Judean Jewish Written Law. It's more internally consistant, and the further back in time one goes, the closer the Judean Jewish version get to the Samaritan version.

 

[sojourner]

The fact that the Genetics proves they are closer to the Hebrews of Moses, and quoting the Jews agreeing is a red herring?

In three out of the four surviving Samaritan groups 100% of the men's ancestors, for 35 generations, obeyed the Written Law about marriage outside the religion, without exception. But they didn''t keep that Written Law?

But that's just the icing on the cake. The oldest Samaritan Written Law is written in script centuries older than any Judean Jewish Written Law. It's more internally consistant, and the further back in time one goes, the closer the Judean Jewish version get to the Samaritan version.

Again, so what? This is stuff based, not upon what some might think is "proper" Judaism, but the Judaism that we have handed to us in the Bible. It may be newer -- it may be "changed" -- but that's the Judaism out of which Xy came. Jesus was a Jew -- not a Samaritan.

 

[Kurt31416]

Actually, Jerome used the Samaritan version to correct the Jewish version here and there. So the original Christian Bible was a bit of both.

And you're dead sure Jesus wasn't Samaritan? Every time he mentions the Samaritans he points out they are more moral and observant than the Judean Jews. He's even accused of being a Samaritan.

Galilee was originally Israel, not Judea, and it's a lot closer to Samaria than Jerusalem.

 

[sojourner]

Actually, Jerome used the Samaritan version to correct the Jewish version here and there. So the original Christian Bible was a bit of both.

And you're dead sure Jesus wasn't Samaritan? Every time he mentions the Samaritans he points out they are more moral and observant than the Judean Jews. He's even accused of being a Samaritan.

Galilee was originally Israel, not Judea, and it's a lot closer to Samaria than Jerusalem.

Yeah. We're pretty sure that Jesus wasn't a Samaritan.

 

[Kurt31416]

I'm pretty sure myself, but it's not just that he liked the Samaritans more than the Jews and was accused of being one, there's a lot of parallels. The Samartians believed their messiah, ushering in a new Kingdom came from the tribe of Joseph. Living Water was a big deal to the Samaritans, (and to the Mandaean followers of John the Baptist.) And it's Living Water Jesus is talking about at the well. And a lot more parallels.

 

[Heneni]

Galilee was originally Israel, not Judea, and it's a lot closer to Samaria than Jerusalem.

Thanks for an interesting thread. I think one would have to have evidence that at the time of jesus's birth galilee was in the region of isreal. I know it all shifted, but i think the general consensus is that it was in judea.

In any case if galilee was in isreal at that time and not in judea it wouldnt have affected jesus as being a jew, his mother was a jew, so i guess no matter where he was birthed or where he lived he was still born a jew.

What say you?

 

[Kurt31416]

Galilee was under Judean Jewish control, but it was the most northern part of the original Israel. The Jews had defeated the Samaritans a couple centuries before and taken Galilee. But there were probably lots of Samartians still there. The Samaritans at the time of Jesus were between Galilee and Judea.

If his mother is Jewish, he's Jewish. The Samaritans are the opposite, if the father is Samaritan, he's Samaritan. Even if he wasn't Samaritan, it's clear he really liked them.

 

[Kurt31416]

A lot of people claim the Torah/first 5 books of the Old Testament was created after the Babylonian captivity, or after the split between Israel and Judea. The Samaritan Torah, and Samaritan genetics, push that back at least to the time of Solomon, and from the Samaritan perspective, before David.

 

[sojourner]

I'm pretty sure myself, but it's not just that he liked the Samaritans more than the Jews and was accused of being one, there's a lot of parallels. The Samartians believed their messiah, ushering in a new Kingdom came from the tribe of Joseph. Living Water was a big deal to the Samaritans, (and to the Mandaean followers of John the Baptist.) And it's Living Water Jesus is talking about at the well. And a lot more parallels.

Jesus said, "We [Jews] worship what we know. You [Samaritans] worship what you don't know."

 

[sojourner]

A lot of people claim the Torah/first 5 books of the Old Testament was created after the Babylonian captivity, or after the split between Israel and Judea. The Samaritan Torah, and Samaritan genetics, push that back at least to the time of Solomon, and from the Samaritan perspective, before David.

You're forgetting oral history. "Written down" and "told" are two different things.

 

[Kurt31416]

Jesus said, "We [Jews] worship what we know. You [Samaritans] worship what you don't know."

Uh huh, and it's the one out of 10 lepers, the Samaritan that comes and thanks Jesus. The Jews, including the priest, leave the injured man on the road, and the Samaritan saves him. The Jews don't accept the teaching of Jesus, but in the story of the the Samaritan woman at the well, the Samaritans do.

And to the historical Jesus, and often in the Jewish/Christian/Muslim version too, the Living Father is Unknowable.

 

[Kurt31416]

You're forgetting oral history. "Written down" and "told" are two different things.

Jesus was aware of the Oral Law, but no sign he accepted it as many other Jews didn't at the time. If that's what you mean.

If not that, what "oral history" are you talking about? That Hebrew didn't exist at the time of Moses so he couldn't have written it down? I think much of it probably comes from Moses, but much of it probably doesn't.

My point is how the Samaritan evidence demonstrates that it was written after the Babylonian captivity is clearly FALSE. It pushes it back the common origin of the Talmud/Written Law as history to at least about 800BCE, and from the viewpoint of the Samaritans, even further back than the Jews, to before David.

 

[Kurt31416]

""There is no God but God." This is the beginning and end, the constant frfrain
of all piety."
Samaritan Hymn, The Samaritans..., James Montgomery, p.208


In ALL cases of God being plural in the Jewish Torah, in the Samaritan Torah, it
is singular.

And all references to God in any anthropomorphic way, is instead abstract, like
the Living Father of the Gospel of Thomas.

And the angels in the Jewish Torah is replaced by God.

Like the Gospel of Thomas, only a very abstract non-anthropomorphic god, no supernatural creatures. To the Samaritans and the historical Jesus, there is no God but God.

------------

There is nothing like him or as he is:
There is neither likeness nor body.
None knows who he is but he himself,
None is this creator or his fellow,
He fills the whole world,
Yet there is no chancing upon him.
He appears from everyt side and quarter,
but no place contains him.
Hidden yet withal manifest, he sees
And knows everything hidden.
Hidden nor appearing to sight,
Nothing is before him and after him nothing.

Samaritan Hymn, The Samaritans..., James Montgomery, p.208

 

[Kurt31416]

John 8
48The Jews answered him, "Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?"
49"I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus

Hello?

 

[Kurt31416]

Jesus said, "We [Jews] worship what we know. You [Samaritans] worship what you don't know."

Yeah, to Samaritans, God is Unknowable. Far less anthropomorphic. Where the Jewish Torah has a God with a voice and hands and so on, the Samaritan version makes it abstract.