The Updated Golden Rule

[halbhh]

See? It's still based on me. People you know, you probably know mutually how to treat others (such as the earlier hugging example). But, random encounters, such as someone stranded on the road, we really can't access much from a moment's glance or process things until we're down the road. It's likely we miss more than we see. So we can't assume this "equal importance to me" because our understanding of the situation is probably not close to equal.

Yes, I think we mostly agree it seems. For instance, if I did stop because someone looked as if they might need help, then I'd simply ask them if they needed help. This is a very shortened version of my last post. It's the golden rule, to ask -- it is what I'd want someone to do: ask.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes, I think we mostly agree it seems. For instance, if I did stop because someone looked as if they might need help, then I'd simply ask them if they needed help. This is a very shortened version of my last post. It's the golden rule, to ask -- it is what I'd want someone to do: ask.

It can be that. But it does begin and end with the assumption of what "I" want.
How I think others should be treated based on how I'd want to be treated, as we've well demonstrated this can lead to many situations where this is not a suitable approach. Thus we must begin our moral and ethical considerations not with what I would want others to do me, but rather deciding actions that are based on what others may want done to them. Because as we've seen what I want, or what we think others may want, is not always going to be what others actually want done to them.

 

[halbhh]

It can be that. But it does begin and end with the assumption of what "I" want.
How I think others should be treated based on how I'd want to be treated, as we've well demonstrated this can lead to many situations where this is not a suitable approach. Thus we must begin our moral and ethical considerations not with what I would want others to do me, but rather deciding actions that are based on what others may want done to them. Because as we've seen what I want, or what we think others may want, is not always going to be what others actually want done to them.

But I'd want others to treat me like an individual person that is equally important, with my own needs and situation that isn't identical to theirs.

Example: someone is serving gourmet ice cream, 2 flavors (say double chocolate and spicy pistachio).

I'd want them to ask me which I want, instead of choosing for me.

So, since that is what I'd want, therefore I do the same for others: check in with them in some fashion to see what they want, as themselves.

That's the golden rule.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But I'd want others to treat me like an individual person that is equally important, with my own needs and situation that isn't identical to theirs.

Example: someone is serving gourmet ice cream, 2 flavors (say double chocolate and spicy pistachio).

I'd want them to ask me which I want, instead of choosing for me.

So, since that is what I'd want, therefore I do the same for others: check in with them in some fashion to see what they want, as themselves.

That's the golden rule.

Yes. It is. But we've been discussing where the golden rule is an inappropriate consideration.

 

[halbhh]

Yes. It is. But we've been discussing where the golden rule is an inappropriate consideration.

Can you point out an example of when it would not be the best thing to do?

Since the golden rule requires we ask (or some equivalent checking) before acting, then it's hard to find any situation where it doesn't work best.

I haven't been able to find any exceptions, but am always interested to hear of test cases to consider.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Can you point out an example of when it would not be the best thing to do?

Shopping cart placements, hugs, assisting people roadside, we've discussed a few.

Since the golden rule requires we ask (or some equivalent checking) before acting, then it's hard to find any situation where it doesn't work best.

No, it doesn't. It says do to others you want them to do to you.

 

[halbhh]

Shopping cart placements, hugs, assisting people roadside, we've discussed a few.
No, it doesn't. It says do to others you want them to do to you.

Because you would want some other person to pay attention to what you want --

Therefore, the golden rules then means you must pay attention to what they want.


(If I just leave a shopping cart in someone's way, blocking them, that definitely breaks the golden rule.

(If I hug someone without even bothering to look to see if they are drawing back and don't want a hug, that would break the golden rule.

(The golden rule requires me to in some way check whether someone wants help before I impose help on them.)

 

[Shadow Wolf]

(If I just leave a shopping cart in someone's way, blocking them, that definitely breaks the golden rule.

The example was me just leaving it in a parking lot because that is what I would want to have more time outside if I were the one to have to go retrieve them.

(If I hug someone without even bothering to look to see if they are drawing back and don't want a hug, that would break the golden rule.

If someone likes giving and receiving hugs, they are fully in the right according to Golden Rule because they did exactly onto others as they would have others do unto to them.

(The golden rule requires me to in some way check whether someone wants help before I impose help on them.)

As we have previously discussed, "what I want" may be for no one to stop to even ask to offer for assistance.

 

[halbhh]

If someone likes giving and receiving hugs, they are fully in the right according to Golden Rule because they did exactly onto others as they would have others do unto to them.

If someone forces a hug onto someone else that very clearly doesn't want it, then they are likely breaking the Golden Rule :

They'd be doing to someone what they (or most people at least) would not want others to do to them -- Forcing.

(if one the other hand the person honestly does like others forcing hugs onto themselves without even bothering to check on if its wanted at the moment, then that person is ok to do so also)

As we have previously discussed, "what I want" may be for no one to stop to even ask to offer for assistance.

That seems valid to me: if you truly are that way, then you definitely don't have to stop to offer help.

The rule as it is: you don't have to do stuff that you can't see or figure out or agree with, etc.

The rule isn't about being different than we are.

It's individually tailored.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Just this one seems mistaken to me -- if someone forces a hug onto someone else that very clearly doesn't like it and doesn't want it, visibly so, then that person forcing the hug on the other is doing what they would not want others to do to themselves: being forced by someone.

Sometimes it's basically "warning or not, ready or not", there they are with arms wrapped around me before I know it.

rule isn't about being different than we are.

Which is why it's inferior as a measurement of morality. Because someone not being different may not be morally appropriate or suitable for a situation.

 

[halbhh]

Which is why it's inferior as a measurement of morality. Because someone not being different may not be morally appropriate or suitable for a situation.

A good rule is one a person can understand or do.

A rule I could not even do wouldn't be a good rule.

The golden rule is wonderfully unique to each person, like a perfectly fitting set of clothing that is the best fit possible.

We could make an almost-paraphrase like this: "Do your best for others, according to your own natural being and what you sense is best."

 

[halbhh]

This might help:

The Golden Rule does not say I should do what Ann does, or what St. Francis does.

No....

It says something so much more possible: it says I should do the best halbhh can do.

 

[osgart]

How about, " Do not violate others' rights and freedoms " ,. as a Golden Rule.

 

[halbhh]

How about, " Do not violate others' rights and freedoms " ,. as a Golden Rule.

Yeah, the only-negative form is quite common it seems --

Golden Rule - Wikipedia

It's a truncated form that requires less of us. Simply: don't intentionally hurt others.

Christ tells those who believe in Him (or just anyone trying to gain the benefits of following His teaching even) to do not only that, but more, the proactive full form.

 

[JustGeorge]

How about, " Do not violate others' rights and freedoms " ,. as a Golden Rule.

I worked in a group home for the mentally/physically disabled for about 12 years, and every year we had to attend various training. The place had high employee turnover, and every year basic questions were asked, one being "We never violate a clients ____". And all the newbies(which were most of them) would shot out "rights!" and the boss would shout "No! We violate their rights all the time! Try again!" And that always stumped them. The answer was "dignity". I thought a lot about that.

It was true. We had to. Sure, it might have been Joe Blow's right to go out in freezing weather without socks on, but we couldn't allow him to do that. It was all in how it was handled. We couldn't say "Yo, dummy, get in here and put some socks on! You know better than this!" We had to handle it patiently, first by getting him inside, and then by explaining why this needed to be done. Even if it was something we'd just talked about two days ago...

I think this idea can help in dealing with people in general. Sometimes we have to violate rights, freedoms, and even preferences(or at the very least, strongly caution a person against doing as they please in a certain situation). But when it has to happen, its best done with compassion, rather than with an attitude of superiority.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

"Do your best for others, according to your own natural being and what you sense is best."

According to you.
And that's the problem because according to you isn't always going to work. A proper morality can't begin with what "I" want because "I" is uniformed, ignorant, and very prone to being wrong. We have to begin based on empathy for others. Like asking others before we act. Or not harming others to the best of our abilities.