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The virgin birth story.

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
 
Oh, and John the Apostle is generally accepted, on the basis of sound scholarship, to be the eyewitness writer of John's Gospel.
Background to the Study of John | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site
See - Internal Evidence Concerning Authorship

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Actually, no. As with the other Gospels, the Gospel of John is accepted by most critical scholars, and the majority of scholars, to be written by someone we don't know. One of the leaders of scholarship on John, Raymond E. Brown, also agrees that we don't know who authored it. The reason being that there is no evidence that John ever wrote the Gospel or that he was the beloved disciple.

In fact, we see in the second century some argument over which John supposedly wrote the Gospel. So no, it is not generally accepted, and it isn't sound scholarship, to state that John is the author of the Gospel which has attached his name.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Actually, no. As with the other Gospels, the Gospel of John is accepted by most critical scholars, and the majority of scholars, to be written by someone we don't know. One of the leaders of scholarship on John, Raymond E. Brown, also agrees that we don't know who authored it. The reason being that there is no evidence that John ever wrote the Gospel or that he was the beloved disciple.

In fact, we see in the second century some argument over which John supposedly wrote the Gospel. So no, it is not generally accepted, and it isn't sound scholarship, to state that John is the author of the Gospel which has attached his name.

not only that john may have been illiterate.

dont they think john was authored over a long period of time by a person or group of people there not sure about???
 

outhouse

Atheistically
There was no need for this though. From what we can tell, the Pagans would have accepted anyway. In fact, they had. There is no suggestion that Paul preached of a virgin birth, but his message still spread. Even Mark and John were in communities that we don't necessarily see the virgin birth there either. So it wasn't necessarily that important.

They may have accepted it anyway, but fact is it was added.

one would have to know ask why? with virgin births being held common for deitys I see no problem with them adding charactor to their figure
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
one of the tests for inclusion in the Bible was that it should have been written by an apostle.
so otherwise acceptable scripture was attributed to one of them.
Problem solved.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
not only that john may have been illiterate.

dont they think john was authored over a long period of time by a person or group of people there not sure about???
John probably was illiterate. I think that is even mentioned in the NT. But yes, looking at literacy rates, as well as those who were literate, it is unlikely that any followers of Jesus were literate.

As for who wrote it, there is some debate. Some do subscribe to the idea that it was various individuals in a community who put it together. Some have also said that there was an original author, and then later some editors (not much later) added to it. I believe those are the two primary ideas.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
They may have accepted it anyway, but fact is it was added.

one would have to know ask why? with virgin births being held common for deitys I see no problem with them adding charactor to their figure
There are various other ideas. One was to raise Jesus above the other prophets. Other important figures had miraculous births, so Jesus, being better than all of those, must have had an even more miraculous birth.

Others have also argued that it was created in order to argue against the idea that Jesus had a dishonorable birth; primarily that Mary was raped by a solider. We know at least that the story was being circulated that Jesus was born of dishonorable circumstances, and it is possible that the birth story was created to counteract that.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I believe in both evolution and creation.

So do I.

However, when man evolved, he still would have had parents.

Do you believe that the earth had always existed in the form that we live?
The science shows that the earth at some point didn't exist. Then It is clear that human also didn't exist at some point in time on the earth.

The point that I tried to make is that, when we are evolved from a point in time when there was no human on the earth to be parants, then it is more possible, that someone could have come to existance without father but from mother. We do not know how, but that's not impossible or against science. The current Science still doesn't know many things.

And if we believe in creation of God and evolution, then God surely was capable of creating Jesus without father.
 
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fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
So do I.



Do you believe that the earth had always existed in the form that we live?
The science shows that the earth at some point didn't exist. Then It is clear that human also didn't exist at some point in time on the earth.

The point that I tried to make is that, when we are evolved from a point in time when there was no human on the earth then it is also possible, that someone could have come to existance without father. We do not know how, but that's not impossible or against science. The current Science still doesn't know many things.
Yes, humans didn't exist at some point. However, through the course of evolution, modern human came into existence. The first human, as science does in fact support, had both mother and father. What you are talking about has nothing to do with current science. Because current science does in fact state that the first human did have a mother and father. It isn't a mystery.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
If you say that, the first human had both father and mother, then that wouldn't be the first human, it would be at least the 3rd human. Are you not counting his/her parants?

i commented on this earlier

that is not how evolution works. This is grade school basic evolution.

I suggest you use google and search for a basic understanding of evolution
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
If you say that, the first human had both father and mother, then that wouldn't be the first human, it would be at least the 3rd human. Are you not counting his/her parants?
That is what evolution is about. It is a change over time. At some point, prehuman beings slowly changed into humans. Most likely, there were probably many first humans. It doesn't prove it wrong. Just that it is more complicated than you try to make it.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
i commented on this earlier

that is not how evolution works. This is grade school basic evolution.

I suggest you use google and search for a basic understanding of evolution


The evolution theory from Darwin has never been proven. In fact the Baha'i Scriptures explains that human has been evolving from one form to another form until it reached to it's perfect form, but not that human was an animal at some point then turned to human. Even if, let's say for the sake of argument, that human had tail and walked on his hands and feet, that does not prove that it was animal, No, it was still human but in a different form.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
The evolution theory from Darwin has never been proven.

science doesnt prove anything

you view is sorely mistaken

darwins evolution is both fact and scientific theory, it has been observed in labs, we have dna evidence of many species and we have a fossil record that matches evolution down to a T


again I direct you to google so you can do a search on real science.

religious text are not science books nor should they be used for science, history, or geology or anything else besides theology
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
The evolution theory from Darwin has never been proven. In fact the Baha'i Scriptures explains that human has been evolving from one form to another form until it reached to it's perfect form, but not that human was an animal at some point then turned to human. Even if, let's say for the sake of argument, that human had tail and walked on his hands and feet, that does not prove that it was animal, No, it was still human but in a different form.
Darwin never created the evolutionary theory. Alfred Wallace, at the same time, propounded the theory of survival of the fittest. Before that, there were also ideas of evolution floating around.

Since then, Darwin's theory has been added to, and changed because of new knowledge and evidence that has come to light. So if you're basing your understanding on just what Darwin published, then you are very behind. If not, then I must assume you simply are not familiar with the evidence in which actually shows that the theory of evolution is, for all intensive purposes, a fact. Don't let the term theory throw you off.
 

dmgdnooc

Active Member
But we don't have the lineage of Mary. None of the New Testament authors ever mention it, and there is no reason to. It meant nothing during that time. It didn't show a link to David, because that was traced through the male.

And I'm not dodging any couplet, primarily because there is nothing to dodge. You are adding information to the verse that simply is not there. You are reading something that simply is not there. You can't add stuff to the verse and pretend that it was there to start with.
  We can't rely on tradition here. There is no evidence that either Mark or Luke wrote either one of the Gospels. Luke apparently has no clue that Paul even wrote any letters, which would be strange for someone who actually met with Paul. The authorship of these Gospels were added later, and thus can not be used as it is accepted that they are not correct.

So yes, I assume the authors of Mark and Luke never dealt with Paul. There is no reason to.

Also, Paul never says Jesus is of divine origin. He says that he was born of the flesh, which give the assumption that it was a natural birth. It is after the crucifixion and resurrection that Jesus becomes divine for Paul.
 Yes, in the New Testament, only Jesus is called the son of God. But in the Old Testament, David is described as the son of God:

Psalms 2:7"I will tell of the decree:The LORD said to me,(David) "You are my Son; today I have begotten you."

A couple of other examples: Jeremiah 8:31, talking about the Tribe of Ephraim being the first born
2 Samuel 7:14, describing one as the son of God.
Hosea 11:1 describing Israel as the son of God

Yes, the verses do not explicitly use the term, Son of God, but the same meaning is there. An understanding of the term is a must. A history of the term is a must. You simply can't take it out of a historical context, and then claim that Jesus is the only one who is said to be the son of God. It doesn't work.

 There is nothing about the paternal link with God. It never states anything like that. You are reading something that simply is not there. Mary is never mentioned for one.
  Did so above. Also, the book of Enoch also used the term.
  Paul never hammered anything home. You've never shown this. In fact, Paul hardly even mentions the idea of the birth of Jesus.

As for Jesus's spiritual nature, Paul does not talk about it unless it has to do with post-resurrection. Pre-resurrection, Jesus is a normal being according to Jesus. You can't mix the two.
  John never uses the word begot. It was a bad translation that is not used for the most part anymore. And it isn't found in the best translations anymore.

Why isn't it in the best translations? Because it is not found in out best manuscripts.
  Showed it above.
 Seed of the woman? I don't see that in Paul. I see instead that Paul says that Jesus was born of a woman, under the law. There is a difference there.

No one describes a descent from David through Mary in the NT. It simply isn't seen.
 I believe it is a possibility. I don't think it is the most probable answer, but that it is a possibility. One that history can not prove.

Can we all admit to the inability to convince each other of our differing views?
And, for the sake of gathering information pertinent to the subject, realise that it may well be the case that none of us have THE definitive answer to the question?
I ask this on the assumption that your educational institution and Professor would appreciate a balanced survey of the differing views of all who have an interest in the question, and why those views are held, rather than a pedantic rant that assumes its own infallibility and disallows any contrary argument.
I'd prefer your assignment qualified for a distinction, not merely a passing grade.
 
There are a variety of good reasons to read the genealogy preserved in Luke as being Mary's.
Firstly, it was accepted as such by the early church fathers. see Ireaeus XXII
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Irenaeus is in no doubt as to whose genealogy is recorded in Luke and as to why it is there recorded.
As to why this was later obscured is another question, but suffice to say Mary's lineage is there, and it is there for a reason, it means something and shows a link to David.
 
The same passage from Irenaeus quotes Paul, the very verses that you fragment.
That Irenaeus and I read the verses in the same way shows that the long held understanding of those verses has remained consistent.
I have not added to their content.
I have highlighted that the underlying assumption of the verses is a miraculous conception, that imparted to Jesus the unique duality of a natural and a spiritual parentage which Paul later elaborates upon further.
(Oh, and I read them that way long before I read Irenaeus)
A latter day fragmentation will not change their meaning.
 
Now as to why you take exception to my use of the term 'fragment' when you plainly isolate a single phrase from what is clearly a sentence - perhaps you could elaborate.
 
I do not rely on tradition.
There is no reason to assume that Paul was isolated from conversation with the other Apostles, any argument that assumes such is flawed at its root, imo.
 
Paul says that Jesus was born of a woman and he also says that Jesus was born by the direct agency of God.
You seem to be unaware of the duality of Jesus' nature as elaborated on by Paul.
The resurrection is Paul's proof that Jesus was born with a dual nature as it is also, most clearly so, in John.
 
Psalm 2 does not carry an ascription to David. It is said in Acts to apply to Jesus.
Jeremiah 8.31, there is no such verse.
2Samuel 7.14, is a conditional sonship, conditional on Solomon's continuing fealty and righteous actions.
Hosea 11.1, this verse speaks of Isarel (the Nation) as being God's son and I agree that Israel is God's national son.
But that is not to be confused with God's particular and individual son who would be born in that nation.
I do not take the term, 'the' son of God, out of its historical or scriptural contexts.
However, I do recognise that the NT always uses the term in a particular and exacting way in applying it to Jesus.
And i don't care if it works for you, or me (for the sake of the discussion), my interest here is to discern what the NT writers mean by the term.
 
Again I refer you to Irenaeus and his understanding of the verses under discussion from Romans 1.
He thought what I think the verses are saying. And we both think this because we are reading the whole of the sentence not merely one of its phrases.
That Mary is not mentioned is irrelevant, you must understand that Mary is the 'woman' mentioned and that there is no male mentioned other than God.
Refer again to the duality of Jesus' nature that Paul and John elaborate on at length.
 
The book of Enoch does not appear in my Bible.
Please provide further references.
 
Paul rarely mentions the birth or generation of Jesus in an overt way, he had little need to.
But the idea underlays and supports all that he did say.
Paul teaches that Jesus, in the days of his flesh, was the battle ground of the enmity between the mind of the flesh and the spiritual mind; of the 2 natures that warred within him.
At his death on the cross the mind of his flesh, his physical nature, was destroyed, the battle resolved, the enmity ceased.
After the resurrection of his body Jesus's nature was wholly spiritual.
see Ephesians 2.14-16
Paul teaches that Jesus had 2 natures from the time of his birth until his death.
And that those 2 natures were inherited from his 2 parents.
1 parent being God (the source of Jesus' spiritual nature) the other 'a woman' (Mary, the source of his physical nature).
 
Paul's 'pre-resurrection Jesus' bore within himself 2 natures that were constantly at war, one with the other.
And in a special, particular and cosmic way that fitted Jesus to the idea of a 'second Adam' and to make Adam 'the figure of him that was to come' - now there is a paradox.
So that the benefits of Jesus' internal struggle and triumph can be applied to all humanity in similar manner to the way Adam's defeat has been.
Because Jesus stood, in the days of his flesh, at the threshold of a new creation the representative of all humanity who will become the sons of God.
 
Please reference to these 'best' versions and manuscripts because my survey, I've just looked at 6 or 8 different versions, reveals no support for your assertion.
 
As I said earlier, Luke relates Mary's genealogy.
This was held to be the case by the early church, but for reasons unknown, the text became ammended sometime after Irenaeus.
 
Yes, history will not prove either the resurrection or the manner of his birth.
Best to be hoped for, from my pov, is to search for what those near to the events believed and taught.
 
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dmgdnooc

Active Member
Actually, no. As with the other Gospels, the Gospel of John is accepted by most critical scholars, and the majority of scholars, to be written by someone we don't know. One of the leaders of scholarship on John, Raymond E. Brown, also agrees that we don't know who authored it. The reason being that there is no evidence that John ever wrote the Gospel or that he was the beloved disciple.

In fact, we see in the second century some argument over which John supposedly wrote the Gospel. So no, it is not generally accepted, and it isn't sound scholarship, to state that John is the author of the Gospel which has attached his name.

Dr. Harris' Internal Evidences are most engaging to me.
Thanks all the same his arguments are sound and having read some higher critical articles on John I have not been much impressed.
I think that the higher critics would have put John into the 3rd century by now if not for the Rylands fragment gumming up their mutual backslapping.
They must be really pi**ed that history intruded itself into the midst of their esoteric discussions.
 
John wrote John; deal with Harris' arguments, then I'll throw in a few of my own.

 

outhouse

Atheistically
for the sake of gathering information pertinent to the subject, realise that it may well be the case that none of us have THE definitive answer to the question?

its down to one or two possibilities already mentioned.

mary was knocked up by a soldier already,,, or ,,, they made it up to keep up with other pagan deitys


Most historians and scholars can say nothing at all of jesus childhood and birth with any certainty
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Dr. Harris' Internal Evidences are most engaging to me.
Thanks all the same his arguments are sound and having read some higher critical articles on John I have not been much impressed.
I think that the higher critics would have put John into the 3rd century by now if not for the Rylands fragment gumming up their mutual backslapping.
They must be really pi**ed that history intruded itself into the midst of their esoteric discussions.
 
John wrote John; deal with Harris' arguments, then I'll throw in a few of my own.

Harris' arguments are based on faith. But I will deal with the misinformation anyway.

The first claim was that that the author was a Jew. Out of all of the Gospels, John is the most unJewish of the Gospels. Throughout it, the author condemns the Jews. The blatant anti-semitism in the Gospel of John just seeps through. Everywhere from John blaming the crucifixion simply on the Jews (to the point in which the suggestion is that the Jews actually crucified Jesus) to the Jews being called the sons of Satan.

As for being aware of Messianic, all that John seems to be aware about is that there was a Messianic tradition. However, the Jesus described in John simply does not fulfill Messianic prophecy. John doesn't even begin to describe Jesus as the Messiah. Instead, he recreates the idea of the Messiah into something it wasn't. Instead of a Messiah that is going to free the Jews from a foreign oppression, the Messiah is instead for the Gentiles. Not Jewish at all.

For his response about women, that was the normal response regardless of being a Jew of a Gentile. So it is a moot point.

For importance of religious schools, that is never even mentioned. There is little importance put on it, and in Galilee, it wasn't a very important thing in the first place. All that is asked is about how he can know so much without being taught. And regardless of being a Jew, that would have been asked.

For disparagement of the Diaspora Jews, that wasn't really something Jewish. The Diaspora Jews were still Jews. And they were still accepted as Jews.

Finally, a hostility towards Gentiles and Samaritans. The Jesus of John seems to be quite open to Gentiles and Samaritans. The fact that he would drink with a Samaritan woman shows that Jesus, in the case of John, was not hostile towards Samaritans. That is quite unJewish.

As for being familiar with Jewish customs, not really. Basically, that would have been general knowledge. And really, John does not go into much detail. Not anymore detail than a "God-fearer" would have been aware of.

For reflecting Hebrew words and sentences, that simply is not true. Much of what is in John can be seen in a Pagan light. More so, many of the Hebrew ideas attributed to Jesus simply are not normal Hebrew ideas. The Messiah becomes something very different. The terms such as Son of God, Son of Man, etc take on a new light within John. All one has to do is compare the use in John with the use in Jewish works, such as Enoch.

As for being aware of the topography of the area, that means very little accept he lived in the area. There were many Gentiles in the area, and many "God-fearers" in the area.

As for knowing OT quotation, many Gentiles and "God-Fearers" were aware of the LXX and the Jewish scripture.

As for the idea of the Logos, it is more like Philo than anything else, or at best, Greek in nature. It wasn't really part of the Jewish culture in the area of Palestine.

I don't fee like covering the rest of the information because one, it stretches the facts and relies on misinformation and a flawed view of Judaism, especially Galilean Judaism, which Jesus and his apostles would have been a part of.

Further, the author never even names who the beloved disciple is. To locate it with John is a matter of faith. We see many other individuals who were supposedly the beloved disciple. Mary Magdalene, in recent time, has been called such. Thomas, Peter have both been called such. The fact is, we have no evidence that John is the beloved disciple.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Best to be hoped for, from my pov, is to search for what those near to the events believed and taught.
I'm not going to respond to this because there is very little reason to. You are relying on tradition and faith, which is fine; however, it won't prove anything. There is a reason why the majority of scholars believe differently than what you're saying.

Also, simply dismissing sources, such as Enoch, which is a Jewish piece of work that should be considered for its historical nature, simply is not acceptable.
 
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