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The warmongers at the European Union

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Georgians cannot make their own decisions, Georgia is fully controlled by Putin and Ivanishvili
Well, you know, right now I think Georgia would be better off controlled by Russia ( but I doubt that it is ) .. it would be a much better prospect than being controlled by the US .. they seem to be
increasingly morally bankrupt. They have just elected a convicted felon, due to their Democrat
party caring more about propping up Israel than their own citizens!
 

soulsurvivor

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Well, you know, right now I think Georgia would be better off controlled by Russia ( but I doubt that it is ) .. it would be a much better prospect than being controlled by the US .. they seem to be
increasingly morally bankrupt. They have just elected a convicted felon, due to their Democrat
party caring more about propping up Israel than their own citizens!
Yes the US has elected a convicted felon, but Putin is a gangster who has murdered thousands of people. Throwing his own subordinates/friends out of windows is his favorite pass time.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Well of course the US is not to blame for all the ills in the world over the last century.
The problem today, is that its political institutions have been compromised. This has been
made possible due to uncontrolled Capitalism, with oligarchs sanctioning and bribing the
political elite.

I find it very sad that this has happened .. even more so, due to the brainwashing of the nation
to believe that the US stands up for democracy and justice .. which are worthy causes.
Agree, but there is nothing to do about it.

But alternatively, if you look at the other big countries like Russia or China, I mean it's not exactly like they are doing a whole lot better when it comes to their political systems :D

..and the current war in Ukraine is with the Russian Federation .. post-Soviet, and involves the
Russian perceived threat of NATO expansion, that has been happening for decades.
At least that is one of the excuses used.

How realistic do you honestly think it would be for Ukraine to join NATO had Russia not attacked? If anything good can be said that came out of this conflict, then it is that Sweden and Finland joined.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
No, if you think you can appease Putin, you do NOT know how to deal with Russia. If you compromise with Putin, your worries will not be over. He will continue to grab land.
A warlike and aggressive NATO will ultimately lead to the crisis of the EU institutions.
It is already happening.
The EU has lost any institutional credibility. Orban went to Putin and to Zelensky, he has done much more than the EU.

We do know how to deal with Russia, trust me.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Definitely that has a lot to do with it. But also lots of people are political or religious refugees etc. there are lots of reasons.

I would say the majority come for a better life.

Yes and no, surely changes were made after WW2 and in general a lot of things change over time.

But take the US, the black people fought for their rights (Obviously not fully there, but at least a whole lot better), women got to vote and were allowed to drive cars (not sure they were ever allowed this in Western countries), more commonly on the job market etc. . etc.

These are choices made by the western countries, nothing prevents other countries from doing the same, but all these things help form the countries to what they are today and people value freedom and the right to speak freely and be able to protest etc. So it's not only about economics, it doesn't cost a lot to allow women to vote or work or give people the right to vote for who they want to lead them, religious freedom etc.

Just think about the capacity of simply letting women work and get an education, you basically doubling the workforce and bright minds in a country, it has huge economic potential.

But doing these things and allowing people rights does make for a more moral country in my opinion.

It's easier to be "more moral" when one is living in the lap of luxury on a full stomach. Those who are less fortunate and have to struggle might have to cross the line and transgress just to survive. This is the world we live in.

Yes, the blacks and women fought for their rights, but they didn't actually get them until the economy was strong enough and the people were contented enough to be willing to support such proposals. That's why the post-war economic boom also saw broad, far-reaching changes in civil rights and immigration reform. When times are good and there's plenty to go around, governments can be more liberal and generous. When times are tougher and people have to tighten their belts - and there's a greater risk for crime and possible political instability - then governments have to tighten the screws a bit.

Hopefully, because I doubt it could be worse, but it requires that we get rid of money. :D

We would have to get rid of money?

Obviously it is complicated, I think some are pretty clear-cut cases. While others might have occurred because there wasn't really any other solution.

The Islamic State was causing a lot of issues and the countries housing them did nothing. So what options are there? Most of Europe and the US were barricaded and essentially changed forever because of them. So something had to be done. And again, it wasn't only a Western issue, a lot more Islamic countries suffered from this than we probably did. They were conquering and blowing up stuff there constantly.

The U.S. chose to get involved in the region for a variety of reasons, though mostly relating to the Cold War and our desire to keep the Soviets contained and out of the Middle East. The region is strategically located along major trade routes, as well as a major source of oil. In addition, the U.S. support of the nation-state of Israel and various disputes and conflicts regarding what many regard as "Holy Land" have been another major complication.

In fairness, the U.S. did not cause most of the original problems faced in the Middle East, but our actions may have helped exacerbate certain issues. We helped factions which would later become our enemies, such as the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. We thought they were on our side against the "Evil Empire," but that came back to bite us in the backside, particularly on September 11, 2001. Iran is still mad at us for installing the Shah back in 1953. Considering our operations in Libya, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Somalia, Afghanistan, I'm sure there are quite a few people over there with good reason to be angry with us.

One thing that came to light in the first Iraq War was that, due to diplomatic bungling on our part, Saddam Hussein was convinced that the U.S. would not be concerned or take any action against him if he invaded Kuwait, so he did just that. But we drove him out of there just the same. The 2003 war against Iraq was just finishing the job that was left off from the last war. It obviously had nothing to do with WMDs, but in the aftermath of 9/11 and the US invasion of Afghanistan, the Bush Administration wangled it in since the US was still in a state of war fever at the time. He was able to get the support he needed, even despite his cover story being obvious BS. It didn't really matter at that point, since the U.S. was still in a fighting mood.

They got away with it because so many people were obviously for it, despite any other consideration. Heck, quite a number of people supported invading Iraq because they thought they had something to do with 9/11, and nobody really went out of their way to disabuse them of that particular notion.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
This is obviously an education issue. Unfortunately, the US have some very talented people but also a whole lot of uneducated ones. But it's not an issue that couldn't be solved fairly easily, given pretty much all other Western countries have solved it. But obviously, as with everything else in the US, education is also business.

Yes, there are serious deficiencies and disparities within the U.S. educational system. The wealthy, affluent districts have wonderful schools, along with a wide variety of expensive private schools. The less affluent districts are not so fortunate, and education is catch as catch can.

But even then, subjects like geography, history, political science aren't really considered all that important by a lot of people. Many people think it's boring and useless knowledge, and they just don't care. The U.S. is still somewhat insular in a lot of ways where many people think "Why should we care about things happening so far away?"

This was bad, I didn't like Saddam Hussein and I think the world and Iraq as a whole were probably better off without him. But that doesn't change that it was an unjustified attack based on lies. And unfortunately, my country decided to support the US in this, so the blame is also on us.

It's certainly on a lot of people, but in the U.S., I could tell that there was a great deal of goading and manipulation taking place. They set up their presentation in such a way that anyone who disagrees with them would be instantly branded the worst person in the world.

You can see the same manipulative tack being used in these discussions here, where people use terms like "Putin apologists" and "Russophilia," as if they believe it will have some kind of effect on how people believe and perceive these events and the positions being taken. But I can see way beyond such cheap rhetorical tricks.

Obviously not :D

But at least when looking at it from the outside, it feels very much like if anyone even remotely suggests something that would be good for a lot of people in need and it is a federal system, then someone instantly calls it socialism and then it pretty much dies. Despite (I think) all other Western countries have such systems and are not even remotely socialistic countries.

I think that is connected to the fear of communism and socialism that the US suffered from during the cold war and after WW2 and obviously because you have a lot of institutes that are making **** lots of money from not having these systems in place.

I think the monied interests obviously feared socialism in the sense that it would lead to wealth redistribution and cut into their profit margins by treating their workers fairly and decently. That may be why they were willing to work with non-communist labor leaders and unions who were very much anti-communist.

The common people in the U.S. at the time were still mostly religious, and they feared communism because it was atheistic and godless. They also associated feminism and the Civil Rights movement with communism, although the anti-communists started to appear more and more over-the-top crazy that the anti-anti-communists started to gain traction. That is, people who were not communist themselves, but found America's obsession with communism to be going way too far (such as in our war against Vietnam). If you look at films and TV from those years, you'll see anti-communist militarists made into the butt of jokes; they were a laughingstock.

Yes and no, had Hitler conquered Russia, things would have been extremely bad and most of the world might have been based on nazists now. So I don't really think there was much of a choice. And I honestly don't know how much was known about Stalin before WW2, I don't think the world media was as fast as they are today when you can digitally send everything in a few seconds. But maybe he was known as a bad person or whatever, I really don't know.

As far as what was known about Stalin before WW2, I think a lot of the early U.S. impressions of Stalin came out of the sensationalistic Hearst press. All that really mattered in the eyes of the U.S. was that Stalin was a communist, and the U.S. was against communism and the Bolsheviks from the very start. That's all they needed to know about Stalin. I don't think they would have viewed Stalin as much of a threat in the 1930s, as the USSR didn't have the wherewithal to be a global threat at that point, and Stalin seemed content to confine his activities to mostly within his own country, de-emphasizing the concept of global revolution (since that didn't seem to be happening anyway).

I think Hitler was viewed as the more immediate threat because he already stated many times that he was intent on reversing the "shame of Versailles." Hitler was breaking treaties and promises he made. Stalin was cold, calculating, and paranoid, while Hitler was an impulsive, flaky, hotheaded megalomaniac.

I honestly think that the US and UK got scared, they pretty much had a race to get to Berlin first. And Russia at this point had a huge army in Europe and Germany and Italy etc. was defeated. And I think the US etc. got scared that Stalin would use the opportunity to spread communism, and maybe even continue the war, so a lot of things happened here. Also, remember that the US was still fighting Japan at this point at a very high cost.

So a lot of things were happening at the same time and they also had to think about the post-war and what should happen in Europe. The US I don't think was ever interested in a weak Germany as they despite WW2 would still be the main opposition to a communist Russia post-war, but they needed Europe back on track fast, which is probably also why they did the Marshall plan.

They might have gotten scared, although I think they agreed beforehand that the Soviets would take Berlin militarily and then divide it up later. Patton wanted to go all the way to Berlin and beat the Soviets, but he was told not to. It's also interesting that many Germans, including many Nazis were also in a race to get to the Western Allied lines as quickly as possible, lest they get captured by the Soviets. The Germans who fell into Soviet hands could expect much harsher treatment than they would if they were captured by the Americans.

I sometimes wonder how it might have turned out if FDR had remained healthy and survived his fourth term. A lot of people have mixed views about him, but one thing that appears evident is that he was a master geopolitician.

Again, the US was really into all this and the Cuba crisis etc. the weapon race with Russia, trying to shape the world so to speak. But again the US have a record of assassinating presidents, think about Trump it happened twice.

Yes, and having lived here all my life, I have grown rather skeptical whenever government officials, along with their cheerleaders and pundits, seem hellbent on falling all over themselves to get out the word and point out to everyone they see who this "really bad, evil, horrible enemy" is. I just look at the whole situation, roll my eyes, and say "Here we go again."
 
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