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The Watchmaker Revisited

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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
You are confusing form with 'things'. There are no such 'things'. A rock is just a conceptual framework created by the mind to indicate a feature of the Universe. 'Rock' is in no way a separate 'thing' from the Universe. You are in no way (and I mean NO way) separate from the Universe, not even a 'part' of it. There are no 'parts', just as there are no 'things', and no 'particles'. An ocean wave is, at all times, the ocean itself. The subject/object split in the mind is fooled into thinking it is a thing in itself. In fact, it is really an action, and 'YOU' are a total action of the Universe.

No, a rock is a collection of atoms that form a unit that tends to move together at typical temperatures. Because of this, it *is* a part of the universe and is separate from other parts (like other rocks that move independently of each other). So, yes, the rock is a thing in itself as are we. The universe as a whole is NOT interacting with me because of speed of light limitations. And yes, *things* exist as part of the universe.

An ocean wave is a coherent motion of atoms at the top layer of the ocean, not a movement of the ocean as a whole.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
The lectures by Tong are a part of a series of lectures to science majors in the related fields. It is important to listen to all the lectures to get the full context of Tong's lectures. In the lectures by
Sean Carroll and Jennifer Ouellette the nature of the Quantum world of the space(?) described in detail as 'Quantum nothing' is indeed not nothing. It is described as a very active interesting place(?). It is well worth listening to. It begins about 12.40 describing the difference between the macro world and the micro world and the Quantum world of Quantum nothing in describing Black Holes..

It is the FIELD which is a 'very active interesting place', but a field is not a material 'thing'; it is a field of energy, appearing here and there as a 'bundle of energy' as Tong tells us. This 'bundle of energy' is what we have been calling a 'particle'. Soon, physicists will do away with that term, as it no longer describes reality. The Quantum vacuum is, as Tong says: 'absolutely nothing. Watch again from about 20:50 to 23:15. "There are no particles in the world", and "this is what nothingness looks like from the perspective of our current theories of physics". "What you're looking at is a computer simulation of absolutely nothing", referring to the Quantum vacuum.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
No, a rock is a collection of atoms that form a unit that tends to move together at typical temperatures. Because of this, it *is* a part of the universe and is separate from other parts (like other rocks that move independently of each other). So, yes, the rock is a thing in itself as are we. The universe as a whole is NOT interacting with me because of speed of light limitations. And yes, *things* exist as part of the universe.

An ocean wave is a coherent motion of atoms at the top layer of the ocean, not a movement of the ocean as a whole.

Any particular wave cannot exist as such without the rest of the ocean existing in it's particular state at that very moment of the wave's existence. It is totally interconnected, and that is the case with a rock and a human as well.

The collective movement of 'rocks' is, in reality, the movement of the entire universe. The temperature of the atmosphere, the rocks, and the rest of the environment all are working together to influence the movement of what you call 'rocks'. It is a movement in unison, not as separate things. You just see it that way. Any isolation of 'rock' from the rest of the universe is occurring solely in your mind due to the subject/object split it itself has created. The only way you will understand what I am saying to you is for you to stop the thought process before it begins, and simply SEE what is.

The word is 'uni-verse', 'uni' meaning 'one'. Looking at a particular pixel in an image and saying it is a separate 'thing' is an illusion. It is interconnected to all other pixels and with the substrate that the image is imprinted upon. The paper substrate is interconnected to 'tree', which is interconnected to 'atmosphere', and 'soil', and 'water' and 'lumberjack' and 'paper craftsman', and on and on and on. Again, you are confusing form with 'things'. Forms are just temporal features on the surface of Reality. During meditation, when the mind is subdued, one gets in touch with, in your lingo, the field, which is the source of 'things' that in reality, are forms. The field itself is formless.
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
I understand that everything are parts the universe, including you and me.

My problem is with your view that you are “one with the universe” shenanigans.

.

If we are 'parts' of the universe, where are we separate and not at one with it?

What's that you say? 'Shenanigans?' LOL. You think I am playing tricks on you to fool you? You should have no worries, gnostic. Who could possibly fool such a sage as you? Why, only a fool would attempt such 'shenanigans'; they are to be pitied, wouldn't you agree?
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
This is exactly the kind of nonsensical comment someone steeped in woo would make.


You had stated the following:

"Only someone who is superstitious and believes in the supernatural would state such mystical nonsense as "man is in perfect union with the Universe. This is not something rational people believe."

So in response, I asked you where the separation exists. It's just a response to your claim, so where is the 'woo' other than that which is floating around in your brain? C'mon, now. Answer the question instead of being coy.

I have already agreed that the mystical experience is without thought.

Yes, but you mean it in a derogatory way.


Yes, that is what you said. However, that is not the understanding or definition of what "mind" means.
the element of a person that enables them to be aware of the world and their experiences, to think, and to feel; the faculty of consciousness and thought.

How many times do I have to tell you that when you make up your own concept or definition of words, you are just being silly.


What is silly is that you believe in the dictionary definition, rather than what you experience as 'mind' on your own. You believe what other conditioned people on the planet agree to via a conditioned mind, like the prisoners in Plato's Cave who believe that the cave wall shadows represent reality. If you persist in your belief that there is an agent of belief, thought, and awareness called 'mind', then show me where it exists. And while you're at it, take note of what it is that is looking for it. So 'mind' is seeking 'mind. There is no 'experiencer of the experience'; there is just the experience itself. 'Mind' is an illusion. Only consciousness is real. You can prove this to yourself, by stopping all thinking. You will see clearly that there is no such 'mind' to be found. It is an illusion.
See above.

See above.

More mystical woo. It's really getting old.
Only someone who is superstitious and believes in the supernatural would state such mystical nonsense as "man is in perfect union with the Universe. This is not something rational people believe.

Of course they don't! Their egos want to think they are a separate self acting upon the world because the ego wants to be in complete control, and to gain immortality beyond death as a notable being which receives adulation from others. That is how irrational your so called 'rational' people are!

The Universe is Everything that exists, including space. Because it is Everything, there cannot be a relative 'other' to which it can be compared. There is nothing that exists apart from the Uni-verse, and is, therefore, not just AN absolute, but THE Absolute. It is a single entity. There are no separate 'parts' such as a rock or a human. There is nothing in man that functions separately from The Universe. Nothing. If there is, show me what that something is and I will agree with you. And stop falling back on calling everything you don't agree with as 'woo'. I am asking a simple and logical question and expect a straightforward answer.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
C'mon, now. Answer the question instead of being coy.
Pose logical questions.

Yes, but you mean it in a derogatory way.
Yep.


What is silly is that you believe in the dictionary definition, rather than what you experience as 'mind' on your own.
Silly me. I believe in order to have a sensible conversation we should use words correctly instead of allowing someone to make up stuff.


You believe what other conditioned people on the planet agree to via a conditioned mind,
People who look at things rationally do so because their minds have been conditioned to look at things rationally. I think that's a good thing. That's one of the things that have led to advances in sciences.

Listening to and believing in and revering yogis and TM frauds and people like Goswami hasn't produced anything of value.

Of course they don't! Their egos want to think they are a separate self acting upon the world because the ego wants to be in complete control, and to gain immortality beyond death as a notable being which receives adulation from others. That is how irrational your so called 'rational' people are!
I don't expect to gain immortality beyond death by worshiping a god as preached by theists.
I don't expect to gain immortality beyond death by being reincarnated over and over as espoused by yogis.
I guess, by your analysis, I'm not irrational.


The Universe is Everything that exists, including space. Because it is Everything, there cannot be a relative 'other' to which it can be compared. There is nothing that exists apart from the Uni-verse, and is, therefore, not just AN absolute, but THE Absolute. It is a single entity.

So far, mmm, OK.



Oops, here comes more woo.
There are no separate 'parts' such as a rock or a human.

Just because some of your atoms were once in a star does not mean that you and a star are inseparably one. Just because someone can sit at a keyboard and type silly nonsense doesn't mean the planet Jupiter can think.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
If we are 'parts' of the universe, where are we separate and not at one with it?

What's that you say? 'Shenanigans?' LOL. You think I am playing tricks on you to fool you? You should have no worries, gnostic. Who could possibly fool such a sage as you? Why, only a fool would attempt such 'shenanigans'; they are to be pitied, wouldn't you agree?
Thanks...now you’re patronising me. :rolleyes:
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Pose logical questions.

Simple. You say we are not at one with the Universe. Where does the separation occur? I have now asked this simple question several times, and each time, you avoid it, or call it 'woo'. Can you respond intelligently, or not?


Why is consciousness without thought seen as derogatory? Must your mind always be churning out thoughts?

Silly me. I believe in order to have a sensible conversation we should use words correctly instead of allowing someone to make up stuff.

Via ordinary conditioned awareness, yes. But I have been referring to an unconditioned view of reality, one that just sees things as they actually are.

People who look at things rationally do so because their minds have been conditioned to look at things rationally. I think that's a good thing. That's one of the things that have led to advances in sciences.

It's a good thing in that it has utility. But I am not concerned with mere utility. I am referring to the true nature of things, and that is beyond the rational mind. Do you actually think the universe was rationally thought into existence?

Listening to and believing in and revering yogis and TM frauds and people like Goswami hasn't produced anything of value.

It does when it finally dawns on you what Goswami is actually pointing to. It will turn your rational mind upside down until it self-implodes so you can actually SEE into the true nature of Reality. But that won't happen as long as your mind is enslaved by Reason, Logic, and Analysis. Freedom is not to be constrained by any conceptual framework whatsoever.

I don't expect to gain immortality beyond death by worshiping a god as preached by theists.
I don't expect to gain immortality beyond death by being reincarnated over and over as espoused by yogis.
I guess, by your analysis, I'm not irrational.

So why do you persist in living the illusion of a separate ego acting upon the world?


So far, mmm, OK.

So if you agree to that, at which point do you see yourself as being separate?

Oops, here comes more woo.
Just because some of your atoms were once in a star does not mean that you and a star are inseparably one. Just because someone can sit at a keyboard and type silly nonsense doesn't mean the planet Jupiter can think.

You see, you are still thinking 'I' over here, and 'the universe' over there. Once you realize that there is no such 'I', that there is no separate conscious 'I' that exists apart from the universe, the only reality can be that consciousness is universal. It is that consciousness that contains the entire universe as a single entity. The space between you and the star is not what separates you from the universe; it is what connects you to Everything, dig? Without space, what you call 'things' cannot exist. There would just be one big blob of indistinguishable sh*t. Do you see that?
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Then look at in my way.

How can you say “I am with one with the universe”, and not sounds arrogant, pompous and deceptive, all at the same time?

Excuse me? How is being one with the universe being arrogant, etc. It's simply the realization that oneness is the fundamental reality, that's all. You don't need to get your udders all in a bunch over it. It may dawn on you that even when you think you are not one with the universe, you are one with the universe.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
It is the FIELD which is a 'very active interesting place', but a field is not a material 'thing'; it is a field of energy, appearing here and there as a 'bundle of energy' as Tong tells us. This 'bundle of energy' is what we have been calling a 'particle'. Soon, physicists will do away with that term, as it no longer describes reality. The Quantum vacuum is, as Tong says: 'absolutely nothing. Watch again from about 20:50 to 23:15. "There are no particles in the world", and "this is what nothingness looks like from the perspective of our current theories of physics". "What you're looking at is a computer simulation of absolutely nothing", referring to the Quantum vacuum.

Does not work. He is using a visual analogy of what you would see on a computer screen. This is not a comparison of Quantum nothing to the philosophical nothing. If you watch the whole set of videos you would get a good understanding of what 'Quantum nothing describes in the Quantum World. I actually gave you a concise definition and you choose to ignore it.
 
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ecco

Veteran Member
There are no separate 'parts' such as a rock or a human.
You say we are not at one with the Universe. Where does the separation occur?
Let's, for the sake of discussion, say you are right. Let's say there is no separation.

Why are you arguing with me and other people in this forum? If argue is too strong a word, why are you disagreeing with other people in this forum?

Since we are all one, all the comments opposing your views are just coming from inside your own head (mind? consciousness? state of being?).

You are arguing/disagreeing with yourself and the voices inside your own head.

Further, people who are concerned with "mental health", who are also not separate from you and me and rocks, are aware that you have these arguments inside your own head. They may be coming to Baker Act you at any moment.




More later.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
If we are 'parts' of the universe, where are we separate and not at one with it?

Um, our skin? Seems like a pretty good place to say there is a boundary. The surface of a rock, where the composition changes suddenly is also a good boundary.

Being part of the universe and interacting with it does not mean we are 'one' with the universe.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Why is consciousness without thought seen as derogatory? Must your mind always be churning out thoughts?
Why bother being conscious if you're not thinking. According to you rocks are conscious but don't think. What's the fun it that? Have you ever seen a rock smile or jump up and down ecstatically like a child?

Via ordinary conditioned awareness, yes. But I have been referring to an unconditioned view of reality, one that just sees things as they actually are.

You like to say we, who are rational, have had our awareness conditioned. Actually, it is people who believe woo that are the ones whose minds have been conditioned by the charlatans who make a lot of money promoting woo.

Do you actually think the universe was rationally thought into existence?
Why would you make such a silly suggestion? The concept that a universe can be thought into existence is the kind of woo thing I have been arguing against.


It does when it finally dawns on you what Goswami is actually pointing to. It will turn your rational mind upside down until it self-implodes so you can actually SEE into the true nature of Reality. But that won't happen as long as your mind is enslaved by Reason, Logic, and Analysis. Freedom is not to be constrained by any conceptual framework whatsoever.
Between the two options, I'll keep my reasonable, logical, analytical mind. That way I can continue to see people like Goswami for what they are: Weirdo hustlers who make big bucks off of those who are easily misled.

So why do you persist in living the illusion of a separate ego acting upon the world?
More mumbo jumbo?

So if you agree to that, at which point do you see yourself as being separate?

I am not you. You are not me. Neither of us is a rock. The rock is not either of us.


You see, you are still thinking 'I' over here, and 'the universe' over there. Once you realize that there is no such 'I', that there is no separate conscious 'I' that exists apart from the universe, the only reality can be that consciousness is universal.
Do you see that?

I see that you do not think like me. That, in and of itself, should tell you that I exist apart from you. Don't you see that?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
The problem with this is that from the scientific perspective none of the various BB models (theories?) propose an absolute beginning. This remains a philosophical/theological assumption. Actually the videos presented by Tong describe the reasons why we do not know beyond the few Planck moments.after the hypothetical beginning. Beyond this at present the different math models are possible explanations of the origins of our universe and all possible universes.

I understand this point--but find it a touchstone for apologetics rather than a "problem".
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
From the scientific perspective the 'how?' of the possibilities of either an eternal/infinite physical existence or a finite/temporal physical existence is not a question science can address, and as a matter of fact it is indifferent to this question,

Many atheists and agnostics would probably be indifferent also, and simply respond there is no objective verifiable evidence of an absolute beginning.

I understand the concept but not the indifference, because proceeding from there we have these two possibilities (unless you wish to posit a third I do not know of?):

1. There was an absolute beginning--prompting the existential and religious questions atheists tend to avoid

2. There was no absolute beginning, merely the "eternally" conserved everything/always, prompting the existential and religious questions atheists tend to avoid

Usually atheists avoid these 2 alternatives saying, "Everything just IS," which sounds zen-like but is avoiding the very promptings the Bible says drives people to seek ultimate answers.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
As a personal question, then the answers will be the same as the ones I have given to you before:

I don’t know that everything have always exist, and I don’t know if everything that exist and existed, have a beginning.​

They are the same answers, whether it be personal or relating to the scientific or theoretical cosmology.

The scientific cosmology is that of the Big Bang cosmology, that only explained the evolution of the universe, from the still very and hot Planck Epoch and onwards.

1. But you need to understand that the timeline from Planck Epoch to the Baryogenesis, or to the end of the Inflationary Epoch, the model is still at the hypothetical and theoretical stage, and still not fully understood. And another thing is that nothing is observable, so these very earliest epochs have not being verified.​

2. The timeline from the gluon-quark plasma to the 377,000 years after the Big Bang (where it also include the Big Bang Nucleosynthesis (BBN, only lasted from about 3 to about 20 minutes after the Big Bang) and matters become the dominant in the universe), the universe is still opaque, because matters are still ionised (with no electrons bound to the nuclei).​

3. It is only from Recombination Epoch (starting at 377,000 years after the Big Bang), that the universe become transparent, because electrons stabilised matters (electrically neutral atoms). But this bonding between electrons and the nuclei of atoms, resulted in photon decoupling, and that’s what scientists can today observed, detect and measure, the freely travelled photons, the earliest observable light, which scientists called Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation.​

Here, I described three main eras, before the formation of the stars and galaxies, which occurred around 1.5 million years after the Big Bang.

These eras described how particles (leptons, quarks first, before hadrons like protons and neutrons; hadrons comprised of 3 quarks) and later the bonding of protons and neutrons in the nuclei (in the the Big Bang Nucleosynthesis), followed by lot later with the Recombination Epoch, which I have already described as the 3rd era.

Eras 2 & 3 can be understood because of scientists knowledge of particle physics and quantum physics.

But all the various other models of cosmologies, for instance, about BEFORE THE BIG BANG, are all highly theoretical models, unsubstantiated (no evidences).

For examples, theoretical models, such as the Eternal Universe, the Oscillating Universe or Cyclical Universe model (known as the Big Bounce, where the universe underwent a series of birth, collapse, rebirth, eg Bang, Crunch, Bang), the various Multiverse models, etc. These are all still untestable and unverifiable, and the solutions are still at conceptual and mathematical stage, hence these models are still hypotheses.

My point in all this, it is impossible to know if the universe is eternal or not, but what I do currently accept, is the Big Bang theory that the describe the evolution of the universe, because they are currently the only cosmology that checked out.

Thank you! I do SINCERELY appreciate your taking the time to detail these important concepts to me, and in lay terms. You may remember, I love world history and the social sciences, but am weaker in them then in regular STEM studies. We students joked about my Master's program that "It had no math in it," which it very much did, but it also didn't really require higher math.

I'm curious if you have an alternative idea I've never heard, a point # 3 if you will, but I believe I can say this with confidence about this universe we live in:

1. It had an absolute beginning OR

2. It had no absolute beginning

Currently, there is controversy as to whether the Bible teaches BB theory or an oscillating universe, whether it teaches an eternal but remade universe or a finite universe.

Either way, if this universe had an absolute beginning, it begs the question to me, "How/who/what did it?" If the universe is instead eternal, it begs the question to me, "How could everything always have been here?"

You see my problem, I think, and why I ask existential and metaphysical questions.

Thanks again.
 
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